[TEPaul]

What facts are still unknown to you and what facts exactly are you looking for at this point?

[ForkaB]

Tom

I must respectfully disagree.  In my experience, "process" is far more important to what ultimately ends up "on the ground" than anything including, "Vision," "strategy" or the best made "plans" of mice and men....  These issues of strategy and implementation are my life's work, in organizations much more complex and, dare I say, "important" than Merion Golf Club.

If we really care about what ends up "on the ground" (i.e. the "architecture" that we see and play within every day) than we CANNOT ignore "process" even though it may be politically or socially incorrect for us to do so.

Of course, I may be wrong....

[Mike_Cirba]

At least we've gotten past arguing about the validity and accuracy of pictures.  As Tom Paul stated so well, "ALL of the photos above are very representative of what Merion's bunkers were like two years ago, and what they are like today."

He has seen the changes in person, and I have as well.  I know others here who have also.  As Tom says, they're no "mystery".  They are exactly as they appear here.

Now perhaps we can talk about the issues of architectural decision-making that might affect other clubs and possibly give us greater understanding of what happened at Merion, as well.

Do bunker surrounds HAVE to be done during a bunker restoration or re-creation, or whatever term we want to use?

How about the grassing?  Mayor Ott mentioned a process whereby bluegrass sod is mixed with fescues.  He mentioned that as the bluegrass dies off, the "eyebrows" wil reappear as per his understanding.  Is anyone out there familiar with this process or the results one should expect?

How about wall to wall bunker Woll that has been used in the bunkers?  How has that been holding up at any clubs who may have experience using it extensively?

How about bunker depth.  Some have claimed that the new Merion bunkers are perhaps inadvertedly deeper, and may actually play tougher.  Anyone with first-hand experience?

I know I'm just repeating stuff raised by others, but I still haven't heard any answers yet.  

Perhaps I'm just trying to salvage something valuable from understanding the process in the hopes that it might help other clubs.  If you like the look of what was done at Merion, perhaps that will be a model to emulate...if not, you might learn what to avoid.  

[TEPaul]

Rich;

You and I may not disagree as much as you might suspect on "process". I admit that "process" is extremely important in the context of any club and their decision making and in their implementation and even in how happy and contented that makes their own particular membership.

It is important but it is something that should be left in the purview of THAT particular club's MEMBERSHIP, and not to us! We are not members of Merion!

What goes into making good and valid decisions about architecture is something I have no real problem discussing on here or even telling "the powers" at a golf club. But for me to tell them how to manage those decisions (once made) through their membership (I call that "process" too), is just not my business. I'm not a member of that golf club, I don't pay dues to it and I feel that area of decision making is not my business, your business or Pat Mucci's.

I think that telling a club like Merion how to manage some decision they have made through their membership is meddling, borish and probably very rude. As for straight architectural decisions and what it takes to make them I don't feel so much that way. I'm sure others feel that too is meddlesome, borish and rude but I really don't, not really, or maybe just a little, if anything.

But telling them how to manage decisions in their own club is crossing the line to me. How can you seriously tell me that you think it's OK to tell Merion what to do when you've never seen the place, when you very well might not know a single member, much less what the dynamics or the structure or culture of the club is? That I truly don't understand.

[ForkaB]

Tom

I haven't, yet, commented on the specifics of the "process" at Merion, because I know only a very little of the "facts."  If something I have written implies that I am "telling them how to manage decisions in their own club" I mis-stated my position or your were misinformed.

My point was just to say that "process" is as important as "strategy."  This is important to me because I am very interested in the "right" things being done--on golf courses and elsewhere in the world.  I/we don't question Merion's process or strategy because of a whim, but because we want them to "do the right thing."  That "thing" may be what Bill Greenwood wants or what Tommay Naccarato wants or somewhere in between or outside that continuum.  I don't know what it is.

What I do know is that the process of how the membership/ownership of a club (or any other organization) both creates and implements whatever vision they choose is critical.  In fact, these processes can be effective whether or not they are authoritarian (as you seem to advocate) or democratic (as does Patrick Mucci).  It depends!  Some situations call for the benevolent dictator, some call for the consensus-builder.  Most call for a balance of both.

I know virtually nothing about the decision making proceses at Merion, or even what has transpired, despite having read far too many of the words written around this subject on this and various other threads.  I will guarantee you, however, that if I spent a few days with the powers-that-be I would know a hell of a lot more and would, in fact, be able and willing to give them my reasoned opinion on their past, present or future, if they so wished.  This sort of thing is my job, when I choose to work, and it is a hard and dirty job, but somebody has to do it......

There is no one right answer as to how to deal with the circumstances of Merion, or Pine Valley or Gulph Mills, as you rightly say.  Just don't be mislead to think that the process of implementation is not as much or more immportant than development of a plan, or a vision or a strategy.

IMHO

[TEPaul]

Rich:

Maybe we're splitting hairs here but I think you know what I mean and I think I know what you mean too.

But again, I think that the "process" of collecting good research and information for architectural decision making that suits a particular golf course is the important thing for people like us on this site to deal with. You notice I say golf COURSE--not club!

Once that's done it's up to them on how they want to take it through their golf club's membership. Again, I don't think that part of it is our business. So, frankly we should stop asking them to produce all these "facts" that keeps getting bandied around on here. My experience is if you read Joe Logan's article you will probably know as many of the "facts" as most Merion members know anyway!

I know there's a ton of architects out there to come in and advise a golf club on what to do about their golf course's architecture and a quick glance at Cornish & Whitten shows how often that happens and has always happened. That I guess would be part of the architectural "process". But once that's been decided on I must say I have never in my life heard of any "process manager" being brought in to tell a club, it's Board or any of its committees how to take something through their membership. How to advise them how to deal with their own membership, in fact. That would be truly bizarre and if I belonged to a club like that, and one that paid for it too with some of my money, I would resign in a New York second.

Us getting into any club's internal workings with their membership is not much different than that, in my opinion, except we are probably acting as if they might listen to us or at least hoping they will when clearly not any club I'm aware of has the slightest intention of doing any such a thing.

Research and information on architectural matters is different however--at least it is to me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I think you're off on a tangent and missing the point.

I'll try to state it again, I'm interested in the "process" starting at the committee level, including the genesis of the project, extending to the architect and the  contractor, encompassing the mission statement and all decisions affecting the final result, or non-result.

You keep on bringing up the membership and I want to get into the committee minutes !  

[TEPaul]

Well, Pat, I really don't think I'm off on a tangent at all and I don't think I'm missing any point either.

I realize that you want to get into those Merion committee minutes and give us all a breakdown on the validity of the decision making of their restoration project in minute detail.

But I don't think I'm missing the point at all which basically is it's none of our Goddamn business! If we want to get lucky and play the course or even look at it from the street then I'm sure that's doable and can actually be a fairly accurate architectural analysis.  

But if you insist on beating this dead horse have I ever got the solution for you. Join Merion, get on their Green Committee or their Board, analyize all their committee minutes to your heart's content and then ask the people who served on that committee if what's out on the course is exactly what they wanted and planned for.

And then, of course, you have to tell us on the Internet ever single fact and every single detail or we will hound you for the rest of time!

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Just listen to the two of us! Do you think there is a single person who looks in on this website who really believes we are actually friends?

For all you NonNewYorkers out there, forgetaboutit---you'll never understand.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

You know, I'm sure the Merion people are going to be thrilled to hear this, but I'm absolutely exhausted on the subject!

Pat, If I read "What was their mission statement" one more time, I think I'll be ready for the snake pit.

Actually, I think what you are saying does have a lot of validity, and worthy of discussion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul, Tommy, Geoff,

The minutes should answer any and all questions and eliminate all guessing on our part.

The minutes reflect decisions which resulted in architecture in the ground.

[BarnyF]

Merion Members,

Please be advised that I fully support your right to restore the bunkers as you choose and from what I have read believe you are proceeding in the best manner possible.  I for one am thankful you have taken the time and expense to preserve a part of our countries golf heritage.  I find that many posters on this site think that members of elite clubs have unlimited funds and time to dedicate to the architectural integrity of their club.  I am sure that the members of Merion think of the club as one of their children...the pride of membership is something I can not find words to describe any more than I can describe the feeling of being a parent.  It concerns me that some of the off handed ill-informed comments some of the posters on this site have made will lead the membership of Merion to revise their guest policies in the well deserved fear that a guest would come on here and rant about vandalism and conspiracy theories.  I know if I was a member I would have already started a black list to prevent this exact occurance.  With the current state of affairs concering the comments some of the posters have made about the process of the bunker restoration I would be embarrassed to admit my affiliation with GCA to any member of Merion or any elite club for that matter.

If anyone would like to privately comment on this matter email me at spooon@usa.net

[Witness Prot. Program 383]

BarnyF,

I totally agree with you that the members of Merion have the right to replace the formerly "white faces of Merion" with balloon animals if they see fit.  Has anyone disputed that?  

However, am I also reading you correctly that "members don't have unlimited funds and time to dedicate to the architectural integrity of the course"?  What do you know about Merion's finances and intent to spend money in a way that preserves the course?  

Are you saying that turning the old bunkers into new, modern ones is a cost-cutting measure?  Do they LOOK easier to maintain?  What are you saying?

Furthermore, what specific comments on this discussion group would you characterize as "oft-handed" and "ill-informed"?

If you are embarrassed by your association with GCA, why do you choose to participate here, albeit anonymously for no good reason that I can ascertain unless you have an agenda that needs a certain discretion to be effective?

If you would have a "blacklist" based on negative comments about the "quality of the work" done at Merion, who specifically would make that list of shame, or is that a secret too?

Is it your contention that major, almost revolutionary work done at any of the Top courses in the world should just go on without any outside scrutiny or evaluation of the work whatsoever?  How about the changes at ANGC, Riviera, etc?  

Or, should every course in the world simply aspire to be a modern Tom Fazio course?

I look forward to your answers.  

[W.P.P 383]

Also Barny,

Your simpering invitation to Merion members to email you privately has to go down as one of the most flagrant, butt-kissing attempts at access I've ever seen.

Why didn't you just change your moniker to "SelfServing"?

[TEPaul]

Pat;

Well, maybe yes and maybe no, but since they are NEVER going to show them to us (if they even exist), probably the best thing to do is go over and see for yourself and form your own opinions--not the most difficult thing in the world to do!

It helps if you saw them before when seeing  them after, but if not, comparing before and after photos can do nicely too. Again, not the most difficult thing to do.

And if you want to know how the committee feels about the results probably the best thing to do would be to ask them instead of combing their minutes or some mission statement and assuming that can tell you exactly what they wanted and what they got from that.

To date I will say I have spoken with 3/5ths of the Green Committee and they appear pleased with what they got. I have also spoken to about 20 members about the bunkers and the breakdown seems to be about 5 very much in favor, about 10 who really don't have much of an opinion (many with a wait and see attitude), and about 5 who seem slightly opposed or very opposed for one reason or another although some of the latter group also have a wait and see attitude.

I don't have that much experience in reading memberships but judging from my own club's membership response to our proposed restoration plan (which we consider to date successful) that breakdown seems just about normal!

Pat, I know you're in the insurance business but I'm thinking you should be considering switching to "process" management!

How about Goodale & Mucci, Inc, Golf Course Process Managers?

[BarnyF]

Witness,

a reply...

1.  I applaud any membership for using  modern construction techniques with respect to building and maintaining any project.  I don't know anything about Merion's finances but I don't think anyone would want or expect them to spend $1,000,000 per bunker just so the course does not appear to have been touched.  Would the passionate be happy if a complete new bunker was built off site and allowed to age then transplanted at night in full so the general public is satisfied.  It seems to me that a comment by a Merion member that the new bunkers will age and mature fell on deaf ears.

2. This whole thing started with TommyN accusing the membership of vandalism which has now been reprinted in the local papers.  Was this off-handed and ill-informed.  I think my first comment to TommyN is self explanitory.

3. If I never associated with activities that embarrass myself I would never get out of bed and own no mirrors.

4.  I know that when people insult the course or the membership where I am a member I am happy not to invite them to play.  Is this a blacklist or just my right as a member.  Lists like these do not exist in writing but be assured they do exist.

5. The bashing of Fazio on this site reminds me of Freud's theory of penis envy...I just think many are jealous of what they don't have.  As a young girl sees her father and wonders what she is missing...many wannabe architects see Fazio's talent and feel as empty.

[BillV]

BarneyF

I think it is necessary to understand that comments referred to as Fazio-bashing are based in fact.  Read his book and you will read what can be construed as a thinly veiled contempt for the "So-called golden age of architecture" (sic).

I think it is necessary for the game of golf to preserve appropriately the history of the game and some of that such as golf courses are living history.

I personally have refrained from commenting on specifics regarding some of the work Fazio has done at Merion (If it can be appropriately attributed to him)and in ohter circumstances as it would serve perhaps a negative purpose for some people that I  care about, but I personally do not like the politics involved in any architecture by committee-which is also in evidence here.  I am a politically conservative reactionary when it comes to golf courses.  I even hate to see clubhouses modernized by the new self-appointed Rockefellers who want to leave their marks.  Also, in my experience, talented golfers are generally not well-educated in golf architecture (Nor even the Damn Rules ferchrissake!)

I for one would like it if historical golf courses could achieve the same status as historical buildings with strict guidelines for restoration, reconstruction, modernization, updating and whatever the Roget's has to offer.  They are however privately owned and not covered by Federal or State statutes which might provide some odicum of sanity to this discussion.  FOr once I think a governmental intervention might be of value!!

The only envy that I have of Mr. Fazio is that he can make a living designing golf courses.  I wish that he would stick to designing from scratch and leave the other work to others who have proven to be more sensitive if not more talented at it.  I have his book and have read it cover to covre, have you?  I suggest that you do so.

[Mike_Cirba]

Barny,

Damn you, man...you're making me break my promise to get off this subject!

Instead, I'll keep it to generalities.  

Would you agree that the finer, detailed points of golf course construction require something more capable of finesse than a bulldozer and backhoe?  As far as cost, the $1 Million per bunker you mentioned is farcical for achieving the type of restored bunkers that Tommy posted above in his "before" pictures.  That work was done in the past five years, yet looks as though it's been there forever.  Wouldn't you agree?

In any case, and without knowing any of the financial issues re: to the project, my own life experience has been largely that one gets exactly what they pay for.

As far as what you term "Fazio-bashing", there has been a recent thread here asking about Fazio's work.  Have you read it?  To me, it seems that the replies have been balanced, fairly interesting, and largely complimentary.  I contributed to the same thread to explain some of the criticisms of his original work that I've personally seen and heard from others, while also citing courses of his I've enjoyed.

As far as his pro-bono restoration work of classic courses he seems to deride, I'll let the comments of others here (as well as the pictures) do the talking.  

Penis envy?  C'mon, friend.  Why do we not have the same envy of other living "talents" whose work is cited positively on this board?

Could it be the difference between an architect who chooses to put the time and attention to details and it shows in the final results (on ALL their projects, not just select ones)?  The ones who respect the land and the history?  The ones who know the difference between a sledgehammer and a hand-held extraction device while charged with pulling a tooth?

[William Morris]

But those who make the changes wrought in our day under the name of Restoration, while professing to bring back a building to the best time in its history, have no guide but each its own individual whim to point out to them what is admirable and what is contemptible; while the very nature of their task compels them to destroy something and to supply the gap by imagining what the earlier builders should or might have done. Moreover, in the course of this double process of destruction and addition, the whole surface of the building is necessarily tampered with; so the appearance of antiquity is taken away from such old parts of fabric as are left, and there is no laying to rest the spector the suspicion of what may have been lost; and in short, a feeble and lifelss forgery is the final result of all the wasted labour.

It is for all these buildings, therefore, of all times and styles, that we plead, and call upon those who have to deal with them, to put Protection in the place of Restoration, to stave off decay by daily care to prop a perilous wall or mend a leaky roof by such means as are obviously meant to support or covering, and show no pretence of other art, and otherwise resist all tampering.

Thus, thus only can we protect our ancient buildings, and hand them down as instructive and venerable to those that come after us.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Farney F,

I have no problem admiting to a member of Merion or any other club that I am an active  participant/member  of/in/on GCA.

As I've said before, without constructive criticism progress is impossible.

To view every project implemented by every golf club as sacrosanct is absurd, and clubs that view themselves as special, have a heightened responsibility.

Eternal vigilance is the price of greatness.

[Tim_Weiman]

Patrick Mucci:

I, too, have no problem acknowledging participation on GCA to members at any club.

But, I do find it interesting that a person who doesn't reveal his identity would suggest participating on this site would be cause for embarrassment.

Why in the world is it "embarrassing" to reveal one's views on golf architecture matters?

[Willie_Dow]

Wm Morris
I thank you for coming back into what should be our understanding of "Storied Merion turns back to move forward".
Sometimes the less said is the best said, and you, Willie, have said it all!
William Morris (1834-96) An inherited income gave him freedom to devote his genius as he wished, and he never practiced his profession - architecture.
He wished that all might share the pleasure that he found in socialism.  To him socialism meant freedom for the individual.

[merion lurker]

 I am a Merion member and have been reading all of your comments the past few days with great interest. I do not profess to know nearly as much about golf course architecture as any of you, but over the past few years I have been trying to bone up and in that time have developed a great respect for Tom Doak, a guy who to me, clearly "gets it". One thing I have also come to understand in my tenure as a member, is that most if not all Merion members "get it" also. What I mean by that is echoed in the quote from Joe Logan's article where a member stated that, and I'll paraphrase, "we're not golf course architects, but we understand Merion's place in golf history".
Merion members do not like change and cling dearly to tradition, which in my mind is what makes the place so special. The clubhouse is a little rough around the edges, the amenities modest and without pretense, and have been that way forever, and that is the point. The truth is in the details and those details are not a happy accident. A friend of mine from another Philadelhia club that had recently renovated their clubhouse and lockeroom to give it a more updated look, asked me not long ago why we didn't do the same at Merion? He doesn't get it, which is why he's playing elsewhere. Merion tries very hard to maintain the status quo, unless of course something is in desperate need of repair. The fact of the matter is that most of our bunkers reached that point. The "white faces" weren't white at all, they were brown and many of the bunkers had the consistency of dirt, which I thought made them very easy to get out of. They were also very inconsistent and in some of the bunkers with the newer sand, it was not uncommon to end up with a fried egg in some, but not in others. After a while you began to realize which bunkers you really needed to avoid at all costs. There is no question that the restored bunkers are harder to get out of, because of the added depth and the new "white" sand. I agree that they look puffy at the moment, but I also agree that the bunker next to the practice tee that was mentioned in the article looks more like the old ones (it was redone in 98 for the US Girls Junior I believe).
I don't agree with everything that was done either, but I do know that the powers that be are trying to do the right thing for the course and will continue to do so until they get it right. I understand that Buddy Marrucci was on the golf course pretty much everyday on his way to and from work, checking on the progress of the work crews. I think it's also interesting to note that what was initially supposed to be a 2 year project, has actually taken one year because had it taken 2 years, the labor force that was digging out each of the bunkers would have changed after the first year, with new laborers coming in for the second year. The club decide to push it through in one year because they felt that the workers had gotten to "know" Merion and that the work would therefore remain consistent on all 18 holes.
I guess my point is that Merion pays great attention to detail and if something doesn't look as it "should", it won't be around long (witness the new lights in the bag drop circle that lasted about a week before they were ripped out this summer). The membership will not sit idle if something isn't as it should be, and I think that everyone posting here should understand that.

[T_MacWood]

I'm confused, you allow your clubhouse to age gracefully, but yet because the bunker sand is off color and there seems to be problem with sand depth or drainage or whatever, you leap toward a complete reconstruction. Your arguement does not make sense. If there is a mechanical problem with your bunkers, fix that problem without hiring the world's most famous designer to put his imprint on your wonderful course. If you had a problem with clubhouse would you repair it inhouse or would you hire Frank Gehry, who has a poor record of preservation, to carry out God knows what. You do not hire one of the world's greatest creative minds to carryout a job that requires a lack of creativity.

[Tim_Weiman]

Merion Lurker:

If I may speak for the group, we very much want to increase participation from folks with first hand knowledge of controversial projects.

So, thanks for jumping into the discussion and don't be discouraged if occasionally the tone of some posts comes across as a bit harsh.

The people I know who are concerned about the Merion project may or may not be especially well informed, but I know they care about the game and, like you, simply want treasures like Merion to be the best they can be.

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