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Merion member 60

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2001, 12:06:00 PM »
Well, you all seem to spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff. I found this site today with the mention in the Merion article. I haven't had time to look back and see where all the discussion of today has come from.

I am going to run off in a different direction from the above line of discussion.

As a member of the Club, I am happy to hear what is going on from the paper. The problem is that the board works in the dark without keeping many of the members informed. This background material should have been provided to the members WAY before the "owners" as some of my friends call the folks mentioned in the article, made all these decisions and announced that we had to pay for them. And, oh by the way, it will mess up the course for over a year.

Their club relations on this and other changes made in the last year or so, have been a disaster. We are not kept in the loop at all and many of us are beyond pissed off at the whole thing. In the old days, if a tree was trimmed back there would be members who would stand up at the annual meeting and complain. This program wholly reworks major parts of the course, with lessor changes to our West course, and I don’t see that the group of members have been consulted. There are just a handful of people with way too much time on their hands who have decided we want this. A picture in the article showed the 13th green which in real life has big holes around it looking like 16" shell craters I have seen at Normandie.

So to discuss the collective changes being made without considering their significant impact on the service and experience of day-to-day life at our Club is inappropriate. I care about & have enjoyed Merion in the past, but the current experience is not anywhere near up to the standards I expect.


Observer

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2001, 01:30:00 PM »
Welcome to GCA, Mr 60. Sorry, but not surprised at all to hear of the frustration
you've been experiencing at the club.
"The owners"....I like that! Almost sounds like they've pulled a hostile takeover.

T_MacWood

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2001, 01:46:00 PM »
Jeff
I'm not familar with the "one stroke penalty" rule, I would think there are many admired bunkers on both sides of the pond that might not conform.

And where does the magical time frame of a decade come from? Do all courses reach their maximum level of maturation after a decade? And didn't Flynn redesign the course in 1925 after Wilson died? I don't understand what you are trying to say about the logic of 1930.

If you had been consulted by Merion before the project began, would you have suggested they start from scratch? Is that a standard or unusual restoration technique? And when a decision is made to totally rebuild bunkers, is that normally the result of a recommendation from a golf-architect?

Merion 60
Thank you for sharing your experiences.


Merion Lurker

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2001, 02:43:00 PM »
Geoff,
You are correct.

It seems that 1930 is a just a convenient justification not a plan.  The powers that be at Merion should admit that the real plan is, "The course will be restored to the way it was in 1930 - except where its not."


Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2001, 04:06:00 PM »
Merion Lurker,

Thanks, I was getting the feeling this 1930 thing either wasn't too well thought out or was a last minute effort to spin the drastic nature of the work. Considering what Merion member "60" said and from what I know about the difficulties people had in the past with just getting a bad fairway contour fixed, the whole date picking concept seems even more disingenuous. But that's their choice, I'm more concerned that other clubs will think this is a positive way to approach a course.

Jeff Brauer,
I haven't a clue what you were asking in your post, could you try me again?  

Merion Member 60,
Thanks for you heartfelt comments, you have my condolences for losing an old friend of sorts in such a strange way. I'm surprised that the membership was not well informed, particularly with the amount of money spent and such a glamorous architect attached and such a supposedly well-conceived concept driving the work. This has also been the process at Riviera, only there it's to be expected since the members don't own the place and are treated like second-class citizens all the time.

Well, I hope Merion will at least have a rollback to 1930 food prices for a while, maybe that'll soften some of the blow. But somehow I don't think that'll help restore much character to the design or peace and quiet.
Geoff


Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2001, 04:45:00 PM »
In 1939 Byron Nelson won the U.S. Open at the Philadelphia Country Club with a check for $1000.
Darren Clark played Merion last week and shot 62.
I asked him how he would have fared at the PGA with his place in the money vs 1939?
The answer?
He would have won $12.50.

Mike_Cirba

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2001, 04:59:00 PM »
Just got home and read the article...

Overall, an attempt by Joe Logan to present both sides fairly, which I applaud.

The only editorial opinion I saw him offer was the following, and it is telling...

"In golf course architectural circles, Merion's bunkers have always been known as classics from the golden age of golf course design. Rather than having the neat, smooth edges so common today, Merion's bunkers were uneven, jagged, rough-hewn, seasoned around the edges with wild dune grass and Scottish Broom, the scruffy plant depicted in the club's logo. Worn and weathered by the years, the bunkers had a look, one might say, of a salty, craggy old sea captain's face.

The bunkers have come out of the restoration looking smoother, clean and modern."

MODERN.  BINGO, Joe!

Which leads to my biggest disappointment with the article.  If the intent is to the restore the course to 1930, then WHY oh WHY do the bunkers look "modern", even in Joe Logan's opinion?  Why wasn't this obvious incongruity pursued further with club officials and an explanation or rationale printed?  

The club officials quoted have an obvious desire to spin this in a way that suits their purposes, but their responses seem clearly designed to be some form of reactive "damage control", given the "cacaphony of voices" not only on GCA, but also within the club itself.

The one about the "bunkers caving in" is humorous.  I can just imagine golfers being swallowed wholesale like those kids in the Centralia Mine Fire.  Thank the Lord that the Green Committee came to the rescue before someone lost an eye, or got really, really hurt in one of those things.  They should have at least put police tape around them when!  Phew....I feel lucky I survived my round last year.

But seriously...

Wait a second...

Other than through a flood or hurricane, has anyone EVER seen a bunker just cave in?????  I'm truly curious.  

I'm a little confused about the issue of planting "Scottish broom and dune grasses", as well.  Perhaps someone with knowledge of bunker creation could tell us if it's standard to do any plantings months after bunker completion.  I thought part of the reason for doing this was to "clean up the bunkers", so I'm not sure why they would do this.  In any case, I frankly don't know that the grasses are visually complementary with the new look, modern bunkers, so I don't know whether to be happy about that news or not.

It's also obvious that the club officials really seem to know that the look of the new bunkers is frankly pretty bad.  If not, why would they cite the first bunker by the practice green "already beginning to lose the rounded look and show wear" as a POSITIVE THING??  

If that's the look you wanted, why didn't you build them that way in the first place??????

It is also sort of sad to imagine people huddled around these new, modern bunkers, looking at things like silt runoff and divots as evidence that if we all sit around and wait long enough, someday, magically, once again these new modern bunkers will alchemically spin straw into gold, and once again, we will have the White Faces of Merion despite ourselves.

That's like saying that a little age and maturing will turn Mariah Carey into Katherine Hepburn.


Mike_Cirba

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2001, 05:13:00 PM »
Caving in...

I'm not a scientist, but it seems to me that simple Physics would conclude that one of two things would have to happen for a bunker to "cave in".

I know these things from building plenty of snow huts in my childhood in cold NE PA.  

1) Enough sand would have to be removed from under the face to no longer support the weight above it.  In effect, the underlying lips of the bunkers would have to be significantly concave, probably by several FEET!

or

2) Enough weight would have to be added to the top of the face to strain the under-supports.

Neither scenario was even remotely in evidence when I saw them last year.  

Can anyone more informed than me tell me where I'm wrong?


TEPaul

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2001, 05:13:00 PM »
Well, it's been quite a day since Joe Logan's article on the Merion golf course restoration (subtheme, the Merion bunker restoration) hit the street!

Again, I applaud both the Merion Committee for going public and Joe Logan for writing a very balanced and informative article!

Certainly, I think it's great that some Merion members seem to have become aware of Golfclubatlas from Logan's article and gotten on the site but, I for one, would like to caution Merion members and Golfclubatlas contributors too that this website SHOULD NOT be about laying blame on people, golf clubs, committees, members or others! And it should not be about Golfclubatlas (or any of its contributors)  taking sides either about anything that relates to the internal affairs of any golf club!

It should be about analyzing architecture! And in that function alone I believe that golf clubs, any golf club would do well to come online, ask questions, make statements and learn and also teach us anythng that can be learned or taught. I think any club would be amazed at the depth and breadth of what can be found on this site. There are architects, superintendents, committee people, researchers (some extremely good aerial analyzers) and others who are extremely knowlegeable on almost any  architectural matter.

It doesn't really cost a club anything to talk and listen. Almost all of this site is research and information based. No club has to take advice from Golfclubatlas and its contributors, but it certainly can't hurt to collect information!

Some of our contributors are extremely interested in things like the "process" of a restoration plan and project and to a degree that does involve members and their committees, but our interest, use and function should be honest architectural  analysis, period! Naturally many of us would be more than happy to supply any research or research information that could be done on almost any architectural subject.

So, I don't think that any of the regular contributors (and others) on here should be taking sides with disgruntled Merion members against any of Merion's committees. Basically that's not our business and should not be our interest. Architecture and anything that relates to it should--and that includes archtitects, contractors, architectural and construction techniques, restoration concerns etc etc!

Joe Logan's article was primarily about the overall Merion restoration and that includes more than just the bunker restoration project. It seems from Joe's article and certainly everything I've heard that Merion is going in the right direction in thinking  and acting on restoration matters. But which and how?

The tree clearing sounds good and so does the fairway expansion plan and also thoughts of firming the course up to play the way it was clearly designed to be played.

So, again, the Joe Logan article was a very good thing, I believe. I would like to welcome Merion members onto this site, and Merion's committee members too! I hope you all come on here and discuss things. Members and committee people from any other club too.

Sometimes it might get heated and rude on here but nothing that you can't take or we can't handle. And it's a damn good architectural education! It's quite undeniable that good architecture, good restoration, good golf architectural products of almost any kind are all about research and more research and education and more education!

So, come on, get on Golfclubatlas and say hello and post! We can all learn a lot from each other--I promise!


Mike_Cirba

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2001, 06:38:00 PM »
Rich,

I know you are a really level-headed, optimistic guy, but I seriously think you are being almost Clintonian here.  And yes, I voted for the guy twice.

Probably a better description is from something you said here once..."I doubt that the members of either Augusta National or Merion could screw up their course enough to prevent me from enjoying it", or something very similar.  

Well, Rich...I'm sure that is true.  Today, I played a very modern, target golf course called Woodloch Springs and it's a very finicky, penal course in many respects.  And yes, I enjoyed myself despite the fact that the course was more demanding than my present game could handle, and I'd probably give it a 5 or even 6 on the Doak scale for a number of reasons I won't go into right now.

However, we're talking about making things better or worse from an architectural perspective; not talking about whether we can still enjoy those courses DESPITE changes that are out of character and ultimately negative to the course.

I also don't know how you can comment in such detail without seeing the new modern bunkers.  I hope that is something that can change (get your butt out here, guy!), and I'm sure you'll still enjoy the course.  

However...something precious has been lost, and that is sad no matter your level of fun, camaraderie, and challenge.


Mike_Cirba

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2001, 06:49:00 PM »
And finally, if my point wasn't obvious above...

Does anyone really believe that all it takes to create something as wonderful as the former "white faces" of Merion, is to build a "modern" bunker, and just let golfers and nature take over???

If that were truly the case, the golf world would be frankly chock-full of them and they likely would never have been as special and admired in the first place.

Do we see all the RTJ Sr. bunkers built in the past 70 years turning into Merion-style bunkers?  


TEPaul

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2001, 06:56:00 PM »
MikeC:

Good point there! It reminds me of Jim Finegan. Basically you can put him on a golf course--any golf course, and he will find some way of having fun and enjoying himself. But that by no means indicates he doesn't know his architecture and can't be extremely discriminaing about it.

He loves golf and he loves to play golf, but when he writes about golf architecture and attempts to analyze it--well, that's a different ball game!


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Sure they will, Mike - didn't you catch today's action at Firestone?  

As an aside, did anyone else think it was unfair that the playoff was restricted to 17 & 18, two long par 4s? Tiger's length advantage definitely helped him hit over trouble & have shorter approaches.

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John_Ott

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2001, 07:49:00 PM »
I learned to play golf at Merion in the forties. I marshalled in the 1950 Open. Over the years I've seen many changes on the East Course, most of them bad. Last week I played for the first time since the "project" began. While the work is far from finished there is much to cheer.
First and foremost, the fairways are going back where they belong instead of where the USGA moved them for various Opens. This is huge. "Ask the old girl what she wanted" and I'll bet that is the first thing she would say. Expanding the greens to original size is also good. As for the bunkers I can tell you that they play all right. Yes, they look a bit top heavy but I understand that in order to hold the sod together a percentage of blue grass is grown with the fescu and that in time as the blue dies out you will have your eyebrow-look again. In my opinion there is much more to like than dislike in this program. Give Merion a chance to finsh in peace, then bitch if you must. Meantime go after the federal government or some other oportune target.

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2001, 08:19:00 AM »
Willie Dow
Darren Clarke shots 62 at Merion?  Don't let the USGA know, the lengthening will begin soon.

John Ott
Well written post but watch the enlarging of the greens closely.  The Fazio group and USGA have put their own version into enlarging the greens at Riviera with the "intent to have more hole placements."

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2001, 08:31:00 AM »
Geoff,

I'll try again, but thought it was two legitimate questions....

I recall a thread on the same subject where you disdained some new fairway bunkers on hole 5 that now guard a creek, and seemingly implied that photos show they were never there.  In today's post, you seem to indicate that they were there briefly, installed specifically for the 1930 ameteur, and taken out soon after.  Were there ever fairway bunkers on 5 before the Fazio restoration, or are these brand new, first time additions? Or are the bunkers you referred to today in some other location than the new Fazio bunkers? Just curious....and as always, I may have got your post wrong.

And about the 1930 date selected for restoration, is it not a valid question as to what year to restore to, even if you happen to believe in restoring Wilson's original design?  I can think of several reasons to agree that 1930 might be the peak of the courses design, not opening day:

1.  The course was designed by "amateurs" who may have learned a few things in later years. (Wilson said something to that effect)
2.  It is reasonable to assume that they incorporated what they know knew, including several years of actual play experience, in modifying the course for an important national tournament....
3.  They may have felt that their course was better maintained in 1930 than at opening.So maybe the  old timers who they consulted (if any) just remembered that as the best period, and earlier times as not as good?  Maybe they just want to commemorate an important day in the clubs history.  After all, without that tournament, Merion wouldn't have the history it does now.

So, with a course with both Merion's history and evolution, is opening day always the only logical day to  restore to? Certainly 1930 is also plausible to select as a date, isn't it?.  Also plausible to me that new back tees would be left in, as it would be more likely to make the course play as intended in 1930, given increased length, as one of those tough - and not very clear cut -decisions to make balancing the here and now with historical accuracy, and the article acknowledges that.  I don't buy your logic about moving greens back to older locations, despite historical accuracy.  While I don't know the details, its likely that too many changes have been made to move them back, and, anyway, if they aren't broke, why fix them?  It seems I brought up the "if we really want accuracy" logic tree you mentioned after my stint at Remodeling U. and was told to stop insulting everyones intelligence!  

Not to cut too close to home, but Rivera didn't restore Thomas' greens to original size or shape, feeling that would make the course too easy for their then current goal of hosting a major tourney.  And the members only knew the course as one with smallish greens....What were your feelings as a member about those very difficult choices?  Are you dissapointed with Thomas bunker approximations combined with green sizes that are really an effect of evolution themselves, and not as the designer intended?  

Tom,

It was typical for courses to mature over many years in those days, without the benefit of irrigation, sod and drainage.  No magic number of years , just the fact that it took longer in those days....Also, no penalty stroke rule about the bunkers, but the pros are always worried about a bunker that may take more than one shot to extract, which could very well happen in a bunker with Scotch Broom, et al.

Not like you to pick at the details without adding more of substance here....I usually count on you to be one of Joe's reasonable voices!

To answer your question, I would present the options to the club.  Usually in the form of a "Givens and Druthers" type bar scale, to determine what they value more - history, playability, whatever.  But, realizing that the club is not a piece of art hung on the wall, and is in use every day, I usually do recommend an all or nothing program, so greens putt the same, bunkers play the same, and more importantly, so the superintendent doesn't have literally hundreds of little different management areas to worry about.  Architects probably do recommend reconstruction more often than club members might, both from experience and because we know how it will work.  Agronomists recommend agronomy solutions, and USGA green reps usually recommend USGA greens, etc.  

I got to thinking about using the original construction techniques to rebuild the bunkers.  As Merion 60 noted, taking the course out of play any longer than necessary is always a problem at a busy club. Using horse and scoop to attain a perfect restoration? I trust this group feels there was enough horse manure around the project without them?

What about using bedsheets to line out the bunkers?  Does this group favor the traditional white bed sheets, or should Fazio have used a buff color sheet, more in keeping with the native sands around the Philly area?

And more seriously, new bunkers do tend to look rather stark, and of course, members are most aware of the differences.  As time goes on, they do soften usually, and members memories also become fuzzier, and they usually do gain acceptance gradually. Key phrase is usually....Some clubs keep on doing work forever, much to the consernation of members for really very little additonal gain.

For the record, talking in general here. have played Merion in 94, and visited last summer to tour w/o playing.  Have no idea if I would like the work if I saw it, but am sympathetic to the difficulties faced by all involved.  One of the bunkers did look a little unfortunate from the pictures shown here. But, we don't judge from pictures, and especially pictures taken from the roadside, and not from the line of play, or intended viewing line. About all I can type for now on this subject!

Jeff

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ForkaB

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2001, 09:44:00 PM »
Mike

Is that "Rich" as in Me, Rich?  If so, I think all I ever said about the old and new Merion bunkers was "I have no opinion, having seen neither version up close and personal."

All I have been trying to do on this thread is express my opinion, from both ignorance and afar, that there does seem to be more than one side to this story, as evidenced by the Logan article and the John Ott post among others.  This doesn't at all mean that I don't respect your and Tommy Naccccarato's and others' informed and confident points of view.  The Clintonian side of me feels your pain.  However, I'm still willing to listen, and also to wait to see how things actually play out over time--of which I do think we do have some.

I don't remember saying "I doubt that the members of either Augusta National or Merion could screw up their course enough to prevent me from enjoying it" but it's a good line and I am happy to take responsibility for it.  It's not just me being my occasionally Pollyannaish self, but also me the realist knowing (believing?) that it is the rolls of the fairways and the idiosyncracies of the green complexes (particlarly the non-bunkered parts) that really stir the blood.  I don't think there are enough brain-dead members at either club or enough D-9's under Fazio's diabolical control to make such wholesale changes to the landforms of either course that I would not enjoy playing on them.

I hope nobody ever proves me wrong.


TEPaul

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2001, 03:56:00 AM »
Major Ott and Fellow Golfclubatlasers:

In my opinion, Fellow Golfclubatlasers should reread Mayor Ott's post above. There's a lot to mull over in what he says. The Mayor makes himself sound awful old (played Merion since the 1940s). But that's understandable since I heard John Ott was playing golf so young over there he got called off the course a lot because his diapers were nowhere near his kneecaps!

Anyway, young or old, if you can find an observer with the history and knowledge and  the overall reasonableness of a guy like the Mayor you should pump everything you can out of his memory and his take on things over time and today!

I can't imagine that there could be many better for truly understanding the reasonable evolution of various golf courses. Certainly Pine Valley and certainly Merion. When I put together my Design Evolution booklet for Gulph Mills, ultimately Mayor Ott was the most valuable person in an overall sense to tap for information, research and the proper creation of REASONABLE ASSUMPTIONS.

He may not have gone as far back at Gulph Mills (he was a long time member but is no longer--moved to Pine Valley quite some time ago) as a few members I found but he went back far enough and his ability to not get totally fixated on old and original things simply because they're old and original and to understand them in an overall sense of how they relate and play in today's world is extremely valuable!

Putting the bunkering aside for a moment (or even not putting them aside) it would be good for all of us to start to understand that some of the other things that Merion plans to do and has done (tree removal, widening fairways and speeding up the course through the green) is very laudable and can send an extremely important message out to the golf world about some of the benefits of the structure and playabilities needed to bring some of these old courses back to the way they should be and how they should play!


TEPaul

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2001, 05:08:00 AM »
Jeff Brauer:

I'm wondering if you haven't missed Geoff Shackelford's point about the possible dangers of picking a specific date to go back and restore to and all that that may entail.

I can't really see that GeoffShac is calling for the club to go back to a certain date at all. I think all he's saying is if a club is going to talk about restoring to a certain date or the time of a certain designer then really understand what that means and what you may be getting and more importantly what you might be losing in the process. And I think he might also be talking about the presentation of something like that to any membership.

Geoff Shackelford is darn good at uncovering and understanding historic research material (particularly aerials) and what it means. His point, I think, is if a club, like Merion, is going to talk about 1930 as the year to go back to in every single way and just call that "the original essence" of only Hugh Wilson, is that really an accurate presentation?

To pick 1930 as the essence of Hugh Wilson sort of leaves out some pretty significant alterations to the course and certainly some valuable maturation that occured under the direction of people like William Flynn and Joe Valentine. Certainly would seem so since by 1930 Hugh Wilson had been dead for five years and many improvements had been made to the golf course!

I think he's just talking about calling a "date" oriented restoration what it really is and also the dangers of adding or subtracting some very valuable or even invaluable things (architectural features etc) because of it.

In my opinion, it's possible for a golf club like Merion to filter back through time and research material and to make some judicious and present day related desicisions about how the various features of the golf course have evolved and what to do about them. Things like those bunkers on #5. Just because they happened to show up on the 1930 aerial (and may have been removed shortly after 1930) are they something that really belongs on that hole to make it the best it can be today?

And then certainly there's the question of the bunkers. Were they better in 1930 than they were in 1951 or 1981 or 1999? That's a tough question probably and I do recognize that the club has to make a tough decision on that and then pull the trigger.

If the club came to an accurate conclusion that Merion's bunker surrounds were really falling to pieces in 1999 then I guess they made the right decision to redo them. But if they were simply looking at drainage and sand problems but just went on to assume that since they needed to fix that why not just redo everything, then one wonders if that was really the best choice and the right thing to do. But anyway, that's the choice they made so let's see how it goes.

Another good example of picking a date and how to go about it and present it to the membership is my own club, Gulph Mills. It looks to us from an extremely good aerial that the year 1939 might be the best year to try to restore back to when it comes to certain things like the green sizes, the fairway sizes, the lack of shot angle tree blocking etc, etc.

The reason we might pick 1939 (actually we're not really picking any year, we're just looking very closely at that 1939 aerial) is that year includes and is later than all the redesign work of Perry Maxwell to some of Donald Ross's holes. We've had decades now of playing proof that what Maxwell did improved the golf course immensely for the members and everyone else, so why should we go to an earlier date (or certainly something that preceded Maxwell) and wipe what he did away? And when we present what we're trying to do to the course to the membership it includes the names Ross and Maxwell!

But does going back to 1939 for some of the valuable things that existed then include ripping out our bent fairways and also many of the useful more modern aspects of the golf course and maybe making the greens stimp at 4 and things like that? Of course not!

Again, research and education--keep the good, get rid of the bad and make the golf course be what it's supposed to be, what it was basically designed to be and as good as it can get--even if that does include elements of the old and elements of the new.

I understand that some might not agree with that but I, for one, believe that's the best way to go.


Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2001, 05:43:00 AM »
Jeff,

The bunkers on 5 as I understand it were installed for the US AM and taken not longn after. So the course has existed for 83 years, and a feature that existed for a few months I would think is not worth restoring. The bunkers are not evident in any aerials but one set, they look lousy, and they don't make much sense. But I guess in Tom Fazio's many site visits he debated their usefulness, talked to members at meetings and really made a sound pitch for this as he devoted so many hours to this all important project.

As for picking a year to go back to, I sat through a Remodel U and no one even dared suggest it there either. I'll go a step further and say that any architect or committee that insists on a particular year is incompetent. It's illogical to think you can go back or should go back to a certain year or week, because even if you do, how do you maintain that point in time? You can't! Read Fazio's book, according to him one of the only reasons the "so-called" Golden Age courses are great is because of evolution and history. Otherwise, he's just as talented! But he's right to an extent, evolution adds character as it did to Merion, and a talented architect will fight to keep the good stuff and fix the things that must be fixed. But if you think Merion's greatness is based solely on that one week in 1930 and the work of Hugh Wilson, you really need to read about the course, its evolution and its character. There were other people, other changes and other factors lending to its interest, which is why the narrow focus on dates and Hugh Wilson simply strikes me as spin by a committee that jumped the gun and decided to push something through in a hurry. Unfortunately, I'm aware of too many other facts to know this is definitely the case.

Again, your point confuses me, perhaps you could unravel it: "It seems I brought up the "if we really want accuracy" logic tree you mentioned after my stint at Remodeling U. and was told to stop insulting everyones intelligence!"

In the meantime, I'll through a question at you. Does it bother you as a ASGCA member, that another member is taking jobs for free? Doesn't Fazio's willingness to do this work free of charge undercut the stature of other members of the society who ask to be compensated for their work?
Geoff


T_MacWood

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2001, 06:26:00 AM »
Major Ott
I know Tom Fazio has done work for you at PV, if you were to undertake a similar project with your bunkers, what would be a reasonable time frame to expect him to recapture their former look? What would be the reaction if they never recaptured their look? And is the look of your bunkers and their playing characteristic inter-related?

Jeff
Thanks for lending us your professional experience. I look it these things from a stricly theorectical point of view and your practical knowledge is enlightening.

I agree that a golf course is not painting hanging on a wall, but on the other hand I consider you an artist, why are architects and landscape architects considered artists and not a golf architects? Perhaps this issue deserves its own thread.

I'm sure it was typical for courses to mature over many years in those days, but since each course is unique and matures and evolves differently, it would seem rediculous to offer that has the reason for choosing a specific date. It would make more sence to me, to systematically analyze the course over the years, based on maturation, design changes, maintenance considerations, etc., to reach difinite architectural high point. Cypres Point's high point might be 1927, and is not the same as Pine Valley's which might be 1952 or ANGC's which might be 1937 or Chicago's that might be 2001, yet they were all constructed at generally at the same time and in the same era.

As far the one stoke penalty, I have seen reference to it, but I have never put much stock in it. In my mind the best bunkers, be they in the US or Australia or N.Irleand, are ones that reflect the haphazardness of nature. Nature is not consistant and golf is not fair, natural bunkers do not levy a consistent penalty and never have. And the last 50 years of Merion are a perfect illustration of that type of bunker.

When considering a complete reconstruction are you concerned with your ability to accurately replicate the old bunkers? I would think recreating the outline would be relatively simple, but recapturing the three demensional quality might be difficult, especially with bunkers similar to those at Merion. Are there modern tools available to assist in replicating the exact demensions and character of bunkers?

It is interesting that on one thread we talk about the likelihood of Tom Doak's bunkers loosing their character over the years and on this thread we talk about modern bunkers being rather stark and needing time to become more interesting.



Patrick_Mucci

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2001, 07:02:00 PM »
Geoff Shackelford,

I don't think that picking a date or point in history as a club's target for a restoration is necessarily the product of poor judgement.

I would agree that substantial research needs to be done, and that there should be prudent reasons for embarking on the restoration.

But, the restoration need not be an exact one in order to be true.  I would cite changed tee positions, initially and intentionally designed with the flexiblity to add length, by the original or targeted architect.

I would cite environmental or permiting impedements that may prevent the restoration of, or elimination of a feature.

If Metropolis or Montclair decided to restore their courses to the year before they built Tennis courts on their golf courses, which eliminated/changed/ruined 3-4 holes on their courses, who could argue with that.

Each club has to evaluate its own needs and act in the best interest of the course and membership. (sometimes impossible)

If.... and I repeat, If, Merion chose to restore the course to circa 1930, I can't fault them for that.  If they decided on 1924, I couldn't fault them for that. And,
if they left the course be, except for tree removal, and repairing defective bunkers, I couldn't fault them for that.

It is also important to remember that the Members ELECT the Board to REPRESENT them.
And, there is never UNIVERSAL approval with regard to any project a club undertakes.

Sometimes clubs undertake projects that are TOO BIG for them to handle.  


Slag_Bandoon

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2001, 07:04:00 PM »
 To John Ott and any Merion lover/lurker new to this site from exposure from "The Logan Report".  This is a group of motherly (worried) golf architect gurus/wannabes/critics/jokers/students and teachers; they have many perspectives of your scene but their underlying constant is their passion for the respect of your course and its history.  Some may not even be right but what's important is that they really are on the right side.  It may sound like bitching sometimes but it's really just verbal anxiety. A reflexive outrage to change under the hand of Fazio, which is sometimes considered an F word here. I hope he'll prove us wrong. But more importantly, I hope that the actually "hands" of the changes --  Greenwood, et al, will get the credit they deserve if the changes are duly respectful to the old course.   (In my humble opinion).  


 


aclayman

Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2001, 07:13:00 PM »
Is it me, or does it sound like the membership is behind TommyN here?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion Article in Philly Inquirer
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2001, 07:25:00 PM »
Geoff, Tom and Tom,

I made a long post today, but had server trouble, or the site had server trouble.  Went into much more detail than I have energy for now, but basic gist is "What you said".  

Tom Mac,

Best equipment for replicating bunkers? The human eye.  In theory, no slope or shape that can't be built with a dozer or hoe.

aclayman,

Am I missing something, because I saw exactly one post from a Merion member that was disgruntled?  Not a scientifically valid sample, IMHO.  I can't even get my family of five to agree where to go to dinner, much less get several hundred members to sign off on all aspects of a remodel program!

Jeff

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach