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Gib_Papazian

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« on: August 25, 2001, 10:31:00 AM »
A combination of the recent postings of the Evil Leprechaun and Brains Goodale struck a chord that has bothered me since Pacific Dunes opened.

Bandon has clearly gotten the short shrift  - with the same jackals who once sang its praises now tearing at its flesh with disparaging remarks revealing a complete loss of perspective.

Some of it borders on the ridiculous. Some of the drivel I’ve heard:

“Why would anyone play Bandon with Pacific Dunes right there?”

“I think the ratio ought to be 4 rounds to 1.”

“Bandon only got high ratings from GolfWeek because Sandpines sucks so bad.”

“Any idiot could have designed Bandon Dunes because the land is so good.”

Please. Comparisons between the two are pointless mental masturbation. Despite their geographic proximity, the terrain they sit on is dissimilar.    

And sometimes the old toy is just as much fun to play with as the new one.

First off, we have all appropriately genuflected at the altar of Doak. Pac Dunes is a reflection of his genius and his group deserves all the kudos and more. I know it, you know it, and even though Tom won’t admit it in person, he damned well knows it too!

But that does not diminish the greatness of Bandon Dunes. Yes, the word is great - especially with a few recent tweaks.

For some reason, I rarely see some of the clever touches on Bandon discussed as thoroughly as the little features on Pac Dunes. Maybe that is because some of them are not as obvious - or perhaps the reason is that David Kidd isn’t a regular contributor.

Here are some of the things I’ve noticed about individual holes:

#1. Barring a moon ball, the left side of the green (on the far side of the spine in the putting surface) can only be reached by playing the tee shot to the right and flirting with the bunker. Pop one down the center or left, and it is very difficult to avoid leaving a 40 foot downhill slider.

#3. The short path over the sandy waste from the tee orients you towards trouble. To play to the safer left side demands a much longer carry than it appears - especially with the wind. The hole looks so innocuous, but I’ve seen so many guys in trouble from the tee.

#4. The most interesting approach shot on either course. Depending on the wind, there are at least 4 ways to nudge the ball onto the green. No matter what you choose, there is a necessity to manufacture something. 4-iron from 150 yards along the ground? Toss a 7-iron at the right side and hope the wind brings it in? The front left bunkers and the Redan-esque contouring on the right make the hole.

#5. With the last fairway island removed, this is a hole Raynor would love. Shoot the gap to the left, and it’s wide open coming home. But if the tee shot balloons right, no matter how long you are, the angle coming into the green over the right hand shoulder of sand is a horribly awkward angle - mostly blind too.

#7. The tendency is to play safe to the right side off the tee. However, that leaves an approach over a wall of grass to the short side of the green.

#8. Confusing fairway littered with bunkers. Even a small mishit brings the sand into play. The best approach angle - especially with the pin on the left - is guarded by a nasty pot bunker. I know, because I normally leave a cold beer in there as it’s inevitable I find it.

#9. Yeah, in a summer wind the hole is easy - except for the fairway bunkers that guard the outside corridor of the right-side shortcut. I played this hole in an opposite wind once, and the wide-open green presents an interesting bump shot.

#10. Why do so many people blast away over the right side fairway bunkers? It only leaves 110 yards, but the approach is entirely blind over a sandhill to the short side of the green. The neat feature I like is the little catch-basin short of the green on the far side of the hill. Play it left from the tee and avoid sand, the approach is a mid-iron punch to the long way into the green.

#11. The further your tee shot strays from the fairway bunkers on the left, the harder the approach to the short side. The contours of the putting surface shoulder the ball away towards the sandhill on the left side of the green.  There is something about the right side of the green that acts as a magnet and the chip is beyond the skill of this Armenian.

#12. The left hand tee doesn’t work, but from the right side, tell me that squeezing one between the sandhill and Road Bunker doesn’t pucker you a bit . . . . don’t lie.

#13. The tee faces you down the right side, but unless you blast a screaming slider towards the high side on your 2nd shot, the 3rd is blind from the bottom of the hill (similar to #15 at Pac Dunes).  Check out the contours on the green from that angle. I finally got up the nerve to hit one to the alternate left-side fairway from the tee last time, and although the carry to the green looks intimidating, it is really about 180 yards and the terrain feeds it onto the green.

#14. I love this hole - maybe because I have not figured out the right way to play it. It is similar to #8 in that the fairway bunkers seem to guard the ideal angle depending on the pin.

#15. This hole is much easier the first time. That bunker in front seems to get bigger, meaner and deeper every time. Pure intimidation like the 17th at TPC. One bad swing can turn a 72 into a 78. Trust me.

#16. I’ve said before this hole would work fine if the tee were moved to the left. It is kind of a bottle hole and although everybody criticizes it, there is a way to play it safely. Sometimes beguiling and complex is a good thing. If you want to play it as a par 4 ½, just hit a 3-iron (summer wind) up the ramp on the left side of the fairway around the waste area. It is not that tough! The only problem is the temptation of wailing away like an angry gorilla trying to drive the green.

#17. Bunkers on the left side or not, the approach from the bottom of the right hand basin is thrilling. Enormous green full of rolls and plateaus with several levels. Seeing the ball fly over the canyon to an elevated green - at least to me - is visually satisfying.

#18. Why doesn’t everybody love this hole? Maybe because you have to choose your line carefully. David Kidd set it up to draw your eye and ball towards the sand on the right from the tee. From there it is instant double bogey. If you think about it, the hole sort of wriggles and writhes all the way to the green. You really have to concentrate because the temptation to flame one right and cut off some acreage is ever-present.

The point is that Bandon has plenty of compelling strategies and there is a reason it shot up to #2 on our Modern List. The golf course just doesn’t beat you over the head with its greatness like Pac Dunes.

You just have to think about it.                  


ForkaB

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2001, 10:55:00 AM »
Thanks Gib

Post of the Year.

And, it is about down on the ground, driver or 6-iron or putter in your hand, real life golf course architecture!

How refreshing!

Rich


Slag_Bandoon

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2001, 11:23:00 AM »
 Terrific post Gib. Now, sit down and type it all over again in 'Course Comments' so it'll be accessible forever.  It's too good a post to let flit away in the wind.  

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2001, 03:42:00 PM »
Gib,
  I agree that both courses are great and I can't wait to go back up there. I think Bandon is a little more fun to play, especially the crosswind factor at Bandon that is more evident than at Pacific. Bandon #4 is like playing a new hole every time with all the options into the green. #10 with the crosswind approach is always fun to try to pull off. #12 is one of my favorites with that one bunker perfectly positioned to dictate how the hole is played. #13 is a poor hole in my view but maybe I'm not a good enough golfer to appreciate its architectural merit. #14 is another really fun hole with lots of options. #15 with the bunker(or should I say crater) front right and the horizon long, dune left makes it hard to commit to a shot. #16 I've never been on the upper tier fairway, but this summer I pushed my drive right and it ran through the lower fairway and up the path to leave me a 60 yd. pitch. #17 with its "peninsula" green is always a challenge. #18 is a weak finishing hole in my opinion, especially compared to Pacific 18. The second shot is straight forward and uninspiring. For shorter drivers they probably aren't even sure where to hit their second shot the way the hole sets up. Bandon is by NO means the ugly stepsister to Pacific.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

peter_p

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2001, 03:49:00 PM »
Super post. Tom Doak will reeadily admit that he got by far the best property.
Two additional course notes:
#3 if you can't reach, lay up to 100-125. If you get close to the green you can't see the hole.
#15 Play as close to the base of the left ridge line as you dare, the land feeds to the green.  

JohnV

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2001, 03:55:00 PM »
Great post Gib.  A couple of comments:

Has anyone tried driving the green on #4?  I tried it once in a large tail wind and pushed it next to the back tee on #5.  I think it can be done.

I love the center bunkers on #9.  If you try taking the right side and pull it a little, they catch the big hitter.  They are deep enough to take away any thought of going for it in 2.

I agree completely on your comments on #10.  The best way is long left, but for the shorter hitter, carrying the bunkers on the right is a thrill.

You didn't comment on #2, which I have always loved, although others don't seem to share my enthusiasm.  As a long uphill par 3, I can't think of another one that excites me as much.

Bandon is a great course.  I have only played the first 9 holes to be built at Pacific and loved them.  I look forward to playing the rest next month and spending some amount of my life deciding which course I really like better.

If play was truely 4 to 1, I'd stay with Bandon just to have less aggravation.

I know at least two people up here in Oregon who like Bandon better at this point.


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2001, 07:34:00 PM »
Just back from Bandon - played four rounds in three days with John Bernhardt and my brother Bob, who lives in Eugene and has played Bandon Dunes numerous times. Ed's comment above is really a good one - Bandon has a lot of cross wind holes, Pacific Dunes in my brief experience has none, except for minor quartering on # 17. We played Sunday afternoon and 36 on Monday at PD in progressively diminishing winds, prevailing summer wind which made 10 holes at PD directly into what started as a 4 or 5 club wind and went down to 2 clubs Monday p.m. PD in that 4-5 club wind is was really difficult - the starting holes were punishing and then #4 was driver mid iron from 460 yards.  What in my opinion makes PD so tough is that the upwind holes are just tough (throw out the scorecard yardage) and the downwind holes have tilted fairways which require carefully placed tee shots to avoid the right side rough in almost every case. Great golf, particularly for match play.
Then we played Bandon Dunes on our last round, Tuesday, in the reverse wind out of the south west.  Have to say I really enjoyed the strategies at BD more than PD. I guess it was the wind at PD.
Great analysis of the holes at BD, Gib. But even if you pick the right line, you have to hit the ball there! Those pot bunkers are tough; a few need to be enlarged just so there's room for you and your ball in there. #9 center comes to mind.  
Can't wait to get back to Bandon. The whole thing was a great experience, from room in the Lily Pad cottage to Derek Chubbs, the bartender, to great food in the dining room. I'll be glad when my feet recover from all that hoofing it.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2001, 05:57:00 AM »
Bandon #8 off the tee looks intimidating but is in fact a relatively easy carry from the appropriate tees. I'm a relatively short hitter from the tee (220-240 yds). The real crux of #8 is figuring out how to control the approach shot into the green in the various winds. I've always felt #18 at Bandon is a weak finishing hole. This was confirmed in July for me when I ripped a perfect drive about 270 out. The approach angle still seemed weird and the opening into the green is fairly wide open. A good player simply has to hit 2 good shots without really thinking on the approach. I however am a 10 handicap and found a way to only muster a par after that drive. I think it would be better to just make the hole into a par 4 even though you wouldn't end right near the clubhouse.
'
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2001, 08:34:00 PM »
Gib,

You have always been a great fan of Bandon Dunes and that's great.

Clearly, the man-made rows of mounds down the 1st and 9th holes don't appear as artificial to you as they do to others.

If Bandon is in fact the #2 modern course, why did the architect feel compelled to work on the 2nd, 6th, 9th, 15th, and 17th holes this past winter? Isn't that a sign that something was a bit off with the original design?

Kidd shows tons of promise and anyone who can build such interesting medium length two shotters is definitely an architect to watch. However, I think Kidd also learned a lot in the process and that he will continue to refine some of the harsher, man-made features at Bandon Dunes in the years to come.

Out of curiousity, what grade did you give Bandon Dunes vs. Kapalua Plantation? Don't you think such features as the bunkers and the areas in front of the greens at Kapalua are better integrated into their surrounds than at BD?

Cheers,


John_D._Bernhardt

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2001, 02:35:00 PM »
Gib,I have found much love and respect for Bandon Dunes. I have traveled there twice now from La. says something. I did not after the first 4 rounds last summer and one this summer feel it is a top 100 course. It has the potential after some modifications over the next few years to be a top 20 course. Pacific Dunes is already a top 100 and in my opinion a top 30 or higher course now. Back to Bandon. The nines need to be switched.
#1 is a great hole but a blind tee shot and 2nd shot into a strong prevailing wind on a course with mostly resort play is not a good idea, in fact the word I keep coming back to is amateur. #2 is a good hole with some options for change later as per tee locations. 3 very good hole and where i am relatively silent signafies agreement with Gib's view. #4 is a great hole but maybe the 3r or 4th on this course. I too love the 2nd shot. #5 is a great hole of the highest kind. It played 3wood and 8 iron down wind which i chose to hit a punch 6 instead on. Into the wind it is driver driver/3 wood or 1 iron. Great hole. #6 is ok and some changes have been made to speed up play. 7 is a poor hole in that the green sits at a high point on the course with a crossing strong prevailing wind. The green fall off hard to the right or down wind some 40 feet. Last year we had balls blow off the green. I like number 8 alot, the traping and the way the green sets up. #9 is a good hole. #10 is a very good hole intheat most of the world plays it the hard way. #11 is a great hole. one of the best with 4, 5 and 14. #12 from the right tee is great too but as Gib says really doesn't work from the left. #13 is a hole that needs to be changed. The drive is ok but the collection areas here are amoung the worst on the course which is a weakness of the course. the 2nd and 3rd shots set you up at 17 green. Again most play here is 1st or 2nd time players. this has you hitting at players on 14 tee which are blind to the incoming shots. #14 is a great hole amoung the collection of very good holes here. I loved it down wind and into the wind, just great. Gib into the wind hit a 3 wood short of the traps on the right side of fairway or try to go over the left bunker with a driver. some locals play out into 13 fairway for the angle into the green. 15 see #6, 16 is a great par 3 waiting to be changed to. A wonderful 200 yard par 3 over a chasim with natural dune banking. there are about 40 yards of fairway to run the ball in downwind condition. At least into the wind you can play the hole as it is. It is a dangerous piece of junk as it is now. You can drive blindly into 17 tee as it is now. there is no landing area to hit into period. #17 is a problem off the tee but is do like the 2nd shot. If 16 is changed this allows for 17 tee to be moved and alternative options off the tee to be set up. number 18 is an ok hole which could be a very srong par 4. I will play 2 times at pacific for each round at bandon period. Bandon is a very good course but not the course pacific dunes is. I do the the traping at
bandon works better than the beautiful traps at PD>

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2001, 05:55:00 PM »
Bandon Dunes is fun to play but it's a 7, no more.  If you think it's higher, you just haven't seen enough 8's, 9's and 10's to realize just how many great courses are out there.  

Mike_Cirba

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2001, 06:05:00 PM »
Mark,

I'm confused.  I haven't played Bandon or PD, but hope to next year.  Still, are you suggesting that a fellow like Gib hasn't played enough courses to appreciate where it stands in relation to other courses?

By the way, what numerical ranking would you give Running Deer?  I'm hoping to get down there soon, and was curious as to your actual ranking.  (ps, Matt Ward gave it an 8 under his ranking system in "Jersey Golfer" magazine)


TEPaul

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2001, 06:21:00 PM »
Mark Fine:

If you've been out there and played Bandon Dunes then obviously you played Pacific Dunes or have seen it. What ranking do you give Pacific Dunes?


Slag_Bandoon

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2001, 07:31:00 PM »
  Ran, 2 and 6 were reworked to speed up play. 17 had a hoard of huns trample the left side.  I'm not sure, but I think the only change at 15 was the tees were moved right.

Point is,  playing skills of a resort crowd are everywhere on the meter.  With the extreme winds this place can deal and hard and fast fairways and greens, unfamiliar traits for most American golf outings, I think foreseeing all the tendencies and possibilities would take an absolute genius. I'm quite impressed with what this young man has done. I think he left a lot of room for massaging the course by letting the course discover itself through player osmosis. If it was designed by a framing style architect it might not have to be reworked too much but it wouldn't be the gem it is. Or the polished gem it is becoming.

 I agree that he must have learned a great deal from this course that he designed. Who wouldn't? I've learned from it more than any other course I can think of. I'm glad Keiser kept Kidd on board to do the changes himself.  What if Fazio... no! I won't go there.

 Who were the architects bidding on this course, by the way?  I'm almost afraid knowing of who might have gotten it and what fate those fields would have been dealt.  
I heard about the contest that was conceived; glad that didn't materialize.  

 No committee; just a man with a dream and a man that materialized it for him.  Both Keiser and Kidd are to commended.

I can already see a change I'd like to see at Pacific Dunes. . . Take the rake out of the right foreground bunker at 17 (Only a foozle will reach it; might as well disguise it by making it a naturally occuring wasteland trap.)    There, now IT'S perfect.  


TEPaul

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2001, 07:49:00 PM »
Jeesus man, you didn't touch that rake on #17, did you? If not, just perish the thought! Doak mulled over the strategic implications of that for weeks!

Where is your architectural appreciation?


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2001, 08:32:00 AM »
John,
  I think reversing the nines at Bandon would be a terrible idea. #1 now is sort of difficult for a first time player, but to start on #10 which is essentially a blind hole even more so than #1 off the tee. Follow that by #11 as the second hole and the average golfer is at least 4-6 over par after 2 holes in a reasonable wind. Then the diehards go to #12 as the third hole and give up golf by the time they are done. Bandon may not be the greatest course but it is a ton of fun to play and as I've said before #13 & #18 need to be changed. I wrote a letter to Mike Keiser regarding those holes and hope David Kidd or Tom go out and fix those holes some day.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Gib Papazian

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2001, 10:46:00 PM »
Ran (Oh beloved one),
You can pull out the the tweezers and pick at anything until you draw blood, and that includes even shrines like NGLA or Maidstone.

I did not say that Bandon is perfect. I did not say Bandon is "better" than Pac Dunes.

What I did state - and I still stand by it - is that Bandon is a great golf course in the context of the Modern List.

Slag is right that one of the facotry firms ouwld have created a hideous cookie-cutter job devoid of personality, charm and quirk.

As for your non-sequiteur about the Plantation, well as I write this, I just got home from Maui and hour ago with a case of insomnia.

The Plantation is not pefect either. But it too is a great golf course. Do we have an upper limit on the number of courses we can call great? 10, 20? How many?

I can think of less than 5 courses built since 1960 I would rather play than David Kidd's creation and buddy that says a heck of a lot. Uncle Gibby plays a lot of new courses.

Plus, EVEN NGLA WAS TWEAKED CONSTANTLY BY MACDONALD AFTER IT WAS BUILT!

Does that diminish the golf course? How about your beloved Pinehurst #2? Oh, I guess Donald Ross just waved his magic wand and the course was perfect from the first day . . . . please.

Bandon has the bones to give it longevity. 100 years from now, the course will still be revered.

Is it better than Pac Dunes? Probably not, but Pac Dunes might be the best golf course built in America since Cypress Point.

Does the greatness of Cypress diminish Pebble or Spyglass?

If we are to draw comparisons, Pebble and Spyglass have more "flaws" than Bandon . . . . and they still stand in line to cough up huge ducats to play it.

Gawdammit! Just enjoy it for what it is and just study it a bit harder. I guarantee you David Kidd thought jsut as hard about every single roll and fold as Tom did.

And hit it left off the 13th tee - you'll "get it" then.


Gib_Papazian

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2001, 10:48:00 PM »
P.S. Maybe Mike should have hired Rees to design it . . . . oh, on second thought, I guess Sandpines didn't go over so well.

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2001, 04:17:00 AM »
Gib,

In your own roundabout way, you made my point for me - Bandon Dunes is not a great course now but it may well evolve into one.

Just look at the two closest green complexes of the two courses - the 6th at Bandon and the 10th at PacDunes. One is glued to the ground and offers numerous interesting ways to play the tee ball. The other is a man made pimple that won't accept a low running shot underneath the winter winds from the north. Hmmmmm.....Especially given what a supreme job the Green Keeper at BD has done in getting that course to play firm and fast, I hope the design of the 6th will be altered into a more low profile one to accept the greater variety of shots that are required in such a windy locale.


Slag,

The original tee placement on the 15th was poor as it only provided a horrible angle into a severe green complex. The new one, which is well to the right is infinitely better but it makes me wonder what in the heck was Kidd thinking originally?? Perhaps it was a safety issue from the 13th hole? Anyway, the 15th plays much better now and is a good example of how the course can become as special as its setting and the people who work there.

Cheers,


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2001, 05:08:00 AM »
Mike,
I don't know how many courses Gib has seen so I really can't comment on that.  Also, unless I missed it, I don't believe he gave it a number??  Maybe he thinks it's a 7 as well??  What I will say though is that an 8 (although it's getting tougher these days) is a top 50 course in the U.S. (for me anyway) and Bandon Dunes is not an 8!  But please keep in mind, a 7 is a pretty darn good number and is boarder line top 100 (for me).  

I agree with what Ran stated, "Bandon Dunes is not a great course but it may well evolve into one".  It is a great golf experience though but we have to remember we're only judging the course on its "architectural" merits right    We're not getting caught up in all that GD ambience and memorability and esthetics stuff right  

Running Deer is outstanding and has great potential.  It's one of the most unique and interesting new courses I've seen is quite a while (and I've seen a few).  I posted on it a while back.  It's in that 6.5 to 7 range give or take (but remember I don't hand out high numbers very freely).

Tom,
I posted extensively on Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes a while back.  I only walked 11 holes at Pacific Dunes so I prefer to hold my final comments until I've played it.  What I did say though is that I felt it had the potential to be as good or better than Sand Hills which is in the 9 to 10 range for me.  

Mark
 


THuckaby2

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2001, 05:27:00 AM »
Wow.  What a battle. I have nothing to add except:

John V - one of my rounds on BD was a 2-man scramble... we did strange formats like that in our afternoon rounds, it was really fun.  In any case, in that round both my partner and I hit driver on #4 and yes, it is VERY doable.  Short-knocker me got it down about 50 yards short of the green, and I felt I pulled it... I'd say in neutral wind you could reach it with a 3wood.

Otherwise, I too REALLY like Bandon and I'll stick with my advice that any trip there should be spent 50/50 between the two courses.  

In any case, well said, Gib.

TH


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2001, 05:49:00 AM »
TH,
Just remember there are no right or wrong answers here, only opinions.  Problem is, with "written communications", it can come across as I'm right, you're wrong.  At the end of the day, we're all just stating our perspective.  
Mark

THuckaby2

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2001, 05:56:00 AM »
Mark - thank you very much for the reminder.  I am all too guilty of often seeing things as right or wrong!

One thing I know is correct:  I'm already sheming on how to get back to Bandon.

TH


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2001, 06:28:00 AM »
TH,
Just curious, what number do you give Bandon?  
Mark

THuckaby2

Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2001, 06:39:00 AM »
What number?  We've used so many different systems here... And I still don't own the Confidential Guide (very sad on my part) so I am not 100% proficient in the "Doak" scale.  Let's just say this - unless you get into some REAL tiny differences, whatever number I give Pacific is gonna be the same I give Bandon.

So each is now gonna get 3 freakin' stars on the "Goodale/Michelin" scale... oh yes, even though I was very strict with those before, they each get the third star I didn't give to many others....

And each gets at least 8 on Doak scale, for me.  I hope I'm reading that right.  By my take on that there might be 5 9's and 10's in the entire world.  If it's not that strict, give each a 9.

It comes down to this:  I HAVE gone way out of my way, risking divorce and at great cost, to play both.  I would HIGHLY recommend to anyone that they do the same.

In the end, I might prefer Pacific very slightly.  But not enough to end up different in any scale.

TH


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