Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike: Thanks for your comments.

I also saw the tee on the 4th you mentioned. Forget the mower ... just walking down to it is an adventure! I'm still curious as to the maximum length that Pac Dunes can play with slope and CR info included with these so-called "hidden" tees.

The same question about the rear tee on #13 beyond the 447 yard marking? When courses add so many different tees I wonder about the different combinations that might actually be used. Rich Harvest Links in Sugar Grove, IL is a good example in maximizing variety through infinite array of tee positions.

[Gib_Papazian]

Excellent observations on those alternate tees guys!

The par 3 tee on BD #17 is a great shot - we had some fun with it playing skins.

The upper tee on #2 at BD is a much better idea too. I really cannot square in my mind how they came to the decision to backtrack after the very first hole in such an angular fashion. It just has the wrong Feng Shui in the flow of the golf course. But up the hillside, suddenly the routing feels more seamless. Maybe they ought to use both tees alternately.

As to back tee the 13th at PD, well I cannot imagine using it unless it is a winter wind situation. I have played it 4 times with the following scores (in order): 3,4,6,11. I'm hoping for something in single digits next time.

The upper tee on PD #18 is breathtaking - I cannot wait to play it with the gorse in bloom.

I wonder, is there an upper tee above PD #14? It would sort of make sense in a Postage Stamp kind of way.

Addressing Mark Fine's earlier question as to what rating I would assign BD if it was limited soley to the architecture.

7 1/2. But numbers lie. Some golf courses are far more than the sum of their parts, and segmenting one particular category in such an antiseptic manner fails to recognize too many ancillary factors.

This might be one of those times when the more visceral Golf Mag rating system makes more sense.

Look, my evaluatory powers did not blow away in the breeze out there. It is just that there is such an unignorable thrill factor - mixed with constant temptation to try some derring-do - that the golf course is enormously entertaining to me.

Even when I get drilled (see #12), like the Coyote, I cannot resist the temptation to take one more whack at that Roadrunner.          

Sure, there is some genius out there and some stuff that could have been thought through differently, so weighing it as a whole I think 7.5 is a realistic assessment of JUST the architectural elements.

But the whole package is great, just great. And I cannot wait to get back there in two weeks.    

[Kyle Franz]

Their are actually many more additional tees at Pacific Dunes -- a couple you probably wouldn't ever find unless someone showed them to you. During construction, we referred to them as "Keiser Tees". I assume that is still the correct terminology. I was given the impression that most of them were to be used for matchplay only (some of them are outstanding alternates, especially during a 36 hole match). Using them for day to day play would bring some playability, safety, and pace of play concerns (some of the walks between holes would be rather excessive). Here is there locations and un-official yardages.

#1 On top of dune behind the 18th green. Stretches the hole out to 440 yds (thats my best guess, perhaps Tom or Ken Nice could give more accurate yardages of the "Keisers").
#2 250 yards. Located to the right of 16 green.
#4 Can be used for #13 also. Its roughly 520 playing to 4.The other one is 15 feet down over the side of the cliff in front of the back tee(445 yds). Good luck, all you have to aim at is gorse clinging to the side of the cliff!
#5 Short and well to right of other tees. Its probably only 90 yds but quite fun going downwind across the bunkers.
#8 Back tee of #8 at BD can be used for both courses and stretches it to 415 yds.
#11 Area behind #6 green at BD can be used, but I'm not sure whether it's being groomed for that currently(160 yds).
#12 One of the forward tees for five can be used to stretch it to 550 or so.
#13 Several alternates. The one shared with the 4th plays about 465. There are either one or two behind third green in 370 to 390 range. There is also one to the right of the third green which I believe can be played to both 13 and 15(410 maybe).
#14 There is no extra tee atop the dune at 14(I'd assume because it would have diminished the view of the dune coming down 13.
#15 There are two short and out to the right. One is about 430 and the other is about 410.
#17 There's one behind the righthand tees at 18 about 80 yards out from the green.
#18 The 660 yarder mentioned above.

Remember those yardages do not take the wind into consideration. When you put it all together, their is way more variety from the tee than you would probably give PDGC credit for, especially after only one or even 3-4 visits. Even after 30+ rounds, I still haven't played half of the alternates. Think about all the different wind speeds and directions the "Keisers" could be used for in match play!          

 

[Mark_Fine]

Gib,
Great to see you have come around to what I have "quite poorly" been trying to say for years - a golf course is more than just the architecture and the greatest ones have a combination of it all.  We may disagree on a particular number or rating for a course, but at least we now seem to agree on the concept!
Mark

Note:  Just be careful though Gib, you're starting to sound like a GD rater - "But the whole package is great, just great".  That's the kind of quote that a GD guy would get crucified for    

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Thanks for the insight on the "other" tee positions at Pac Dunes!

Does anyone know if the course was rated / sloped with the extreme back tees at #1 and #18?

I guess the course was "officiailly" rated and sloped with #1 being just 300 yards and the 18th at 591 yards.

Mark:

As a GD rater I absolutely loved the entire concept of Pac Dunes. I wonderful companion to Bandon and I agree with Gib that Bandon Dunes is a superb course that unfortunately might get lost in the shuffle with all the talk about the new kid in town.

Anyone who calls themselves a "golfer" not just someone who happens to play golf had best get to Bandon and Pac Dunes ASAP.

I just hope the facility will monitor slow play because sheer enjoyment in playing both is akin to when you were kid and could not wait to open the next package. Try telling your kids to hold on opening up the next gift in the same manner as golfers must wait endlessly to hit their next shot at either course and permanent frustration sets in.

The WOW factor is certainly in play at Bandon and Pac Dunes in my humble opinion.

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle has some of the yardages for those alternate tees a bit wrong -- the right-hand tees on 15 are 495 and 471, for example -- but I think he included them all.

The first hole is meant to have a tee at 360 yards, but we couldn't build it because the temporary clubhouse kept shifting its location.  We will build it this winter.  The back tee -- which is 402 yards -- is only for Tiger Woods or David Eger.  I would never want them to use it for normal play, although it would quickly settle things as the 19th tee!

I've played the course in all winds, and I think it is 1-2 strokes easier in the south wind.  Holes 4 & 7 become par 5's, and the 18th is hard to reach in three, but a lot of the other holes get easier.  We even considered making them do separate course ratings for the two winds.

[Gib_Papazian]

Mark,

Crucified or not, I just spit out what I feel and try not to buy into anybody's dogma. None of the rating services are perfect and we both know it.

As for your "quite poorly been trying to say for years . ."

Let's just remember that you are writing, I'm just typing. :-)