Bandon & Pac Dunes. Just think about it.

[Mark_Fine]

TH,
If you feel Bandon and Pacific should get the same rating great, you're entitled to your opinion.  I'd beg to differ but then again, we all see things differently and it's all a matter of our perspective.  I remember playing with a gentlemen one time at Black Diamond in Florida.  He raved about the golf course and told me it was a 9 or 10 on Doak's scale.  I asked him how many of the top courses in the world and/or in the U.S. he had gotten to play and he said only about ten.  After hearing that, there was no need to argue with him.  From his viewpoint, I would have probably thought it was a 9 or 10 as well.  
Mark

[ForkaB]

Tom and Gib

I know you, your games, the depth and breadth of your experiences and your admirable senses of perspective as well as most people on this site, and I very much value your opinions on this issue more than I do one who has not even played both courses.  Thanks for your comments.

Of course, I will make up my own mind in a month or so

[Mark_Fine]

Rich,
I take it you are going to seem them yourself to make up your own mind?  Why bother, don't you have enough info. already to draw a conclusion?  Ran told you his feelings about Bandon and he's pretty credible with his "perspective".  Save the airfare  
Mark

[ForkaB]

Mark

I'm not only going to "seem" them (is that analgous to "being the ball?"), I'm going to see them and play them too!  Of course I do not have enough info. I do have the benefit of the personal opinions of more than two very well travelled and very competent golfers whom I know and who have spent some time there, and I did actually read Ran's comments, and those of others whom I haven't met.  However, as I said at the end of my last post which was so lengthy you may not have made it to the end, I'll make up my own mind after I've been there, with 10 or so other GCA'ers.  When you finally get to play PD, I'll be very interested in hearing what you have to say.  Even so, until I meet you and have played with you and have had some face time with you I'll take any of your opinions with a very large grain of salt--as you should mine.

Rich

PS--Dan "The" King and I are probably driving up together, so you can reconfirm that short sale of Alaska Airlines stock with your broker.....

[Slag_Bandoon]

Tommy Paul,  Rakes are evil.  "Slowly I turn, step by step" --- I'm not sure why but they keep coming up in my answers during Rohrshach tests.  More accurately, rakes being weilded by an angry Joan Crawford wearing a French maid's outfit while stomping grapes.  
     

[Paul_Daley]

A confession: I haven't played either Bandon or Pacific Dunes, but having read all the posts, and seen awesome photographic eveidence on this website, I can well understand all the excitement.

My tip is that while currently the two are inexorably linked, and mentioned in tandem, that may soon change.

It is my hope that in the near future, GCA golf nuts will refer to the trifector of Bandon, Pacific Dunes, and Barnbougle Dunes in Tasmania, Australia.

Some of the "all nighters" will recall a previous post by Greg Ramsay (aka "Young Turk") who is the developer of this incredible dunesland site. Tom Doak has visited and spent four days on site and mapped out a routing. Actually, he has a shortlist of two. Regardless of which he chooses, I can vouch for the links as being world class.

When the links is realised after the usual red tape issues are cleared, Barnbougle Dunes will hit the news in a big way.

[T_MacWood]

What has always struck me about Bandon, from the photographs, is the stark contrast between the playing surfaces and the dunes and sand hills. The fairways and greens seem unnaturally graded and have little or no relationship to the natural features -- a common complaint with many modern designs. Might that contribute to the disatisfaction?

[THuckaby2]

Mark Fine:

I can take a slap when I see it!  Please do realize, however, as Rich has seemingly pointed out, that I have been around.  Yes, I am a public course yokel from San Jose, CA, but do you really want to see the list of courses in the US and abroad that I have played before my opinions receive validity?

I can provide such if it will help.

Please trust, I have been around.  The last course I played before PD and BD was Cypress freakin' Point.  If ever courses are gonna suffer in comparison, it would be during the week I had.

And remember, I said I did slightly prefer Pacific to Bandon - but I think that's a matter of taste.  I will remain firm that they are BOTH great courses.

And yes, they will indeed get the same number from me in whatever scale we use here.  If maybe we use a 100 point system, PD comes out a bit higher.

I'm with Gib in any case - going to Bandon Dunes resort and not playing the courses 50/50 to me seems silly.

Bandon has its faults, and I also believe it will be tweaked over time as it has been already.  But for me anyway, that doesn't take much away from what's there right now.

I too will be interested in what the group going in September has to say...

TH

ps to Tom MacWood:  perhaps more trained eyes than mine will catch it, but I saw very little "unnatural" on BD.  Ran notes the mounds on #1 fairway - hell to me those looked like they've been there forever.  But what the hell, #1 is a great hole however it looks...

[Mark_Fine]

Rich,
Don't pick on my typing.  I'm only about a 2 on that scale.  I'm glad to hear you are reserving your opinion until you see the courses and not listening to guys like me who are semi-clueless.  I will say though that having walked 11 holes (which is probably more than most), I do have at least some idea about Pacific Dunes, but I will still hold my final opinions till I play there.  

Tom,
I appologize if I came across as condescending.  I was just trying to say in general that a person's experience and exposure to great courses will impact there perceptions.  I have no idea where and what you have played.  

I do envision you though as the kind of guy who would love both courses in Bandon and not distinguish much between the two (and I don't mean that in a negative way at all).  I assume you would just be thrilled to be playing there and I can fully empathize with that.

There are many times when I just say, forget studying the darn archtitecture, this course is just plain fun!
Mark

[THuckaby2]

Mark - thanks for the clarification, but let's give this one more try, in my defense.

Yes, I was thrilled to be there at Bandon.  But that's because the place turned out to exceed the incredible expectations I had,  because the courses were great... that almost never happens.  Reference Troon North for an exact opposite experience for me.

I can and have made many distinctions between the two courses.  Here's one as proof:  the green sites on the whole are much better designed and the tee shots provide more strategy at Pacific.  Does that help?

You're just getting my summary here... which is that both courses are indeed great, as Gib said.  I didn't go much beyond that because Gib had it covered.

Yes, I was indeed thrilled to play Cypress also - who wouldn't be?  I'd guess even the members never lose the "thrill" factor there...

You're right though - most of the time I do indeed simply play courses and enjoy them for what they're worth.  I don't choose to "study" architecture per se like many in this group, never have, never will.  At least not while I'm actually playing golf.  Count me among those who would rather play Bandon than walk Merion.  But that being said, ask my wife about my ever-growing library of books which she says might as well be in Greek... "The Links" isn't exactly light reading.  Again, I'm no Dan King, but I have my share of golf literature.

All this means that in my defense, please do understand that I CAN study when I choose to.  

I'm fighting a losing battle here, I know.  I guess I ought to pick both courses apart to achieve some sort of architectural validity.  I just can't bring myself to do that to two courses I did enjoy so much...

But that being said, did you read the thread where we battled over #16 at Bandon Dunes?  That ought go shed some better light re my "perspective."

No, I am no Gib nor am I a Morrisett.  I haven't been to all the places they have, nor do I see things they see.  I feely admit that.

But does that mean my perspective is somehow skewed and I see courses as better than they do just because I'm happy to be there?  Maybe.  I don't think so, but maybe.  Still, couldn't it be the other way around that guys like them have seen so much they think negative first, if only a little?  No offense guys, just batting this around.  

Talk to me about the crap around the Bay Area.  I don't gush unless gushing is deserved.

And both courses at Bandon deserve it.  That's the point.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is this the west coast version of the
National VS Shinnecock match ??

If they're two great golf courses, just let them be two great golf courses, and enjoy each one for its unique features and playability.

[THuckaby2]

Well said Mr. Mucci.  That's fair enough by me.

The problem is, in the bars and restaurant at Bandon resort, the OVERWHELMING topic of discussion is indeed which course does one like better.  It's impossible to avoid!

But your recommendation is the best way, methinks.

TH

[John Bernhardt]

Tom in 3 years it will be a non issue. It will be which of 2 or 3 or 4 good to great courses do you want to play and where are you playing tm.

[THuckaby2]

Sounds great to me, John!

So am I too addicted if I want to go back NOW?  My buddy Kevin and I were discussing that this morning...

TH

[John Bernhardt]

Tom I am in withdrawels too, but it will be next year before the good dunes and greens of Oregon are under my golf shoes.

[brad_miller]

Just a question about speed of play, how long does it take to play BD and PD? If it gets close to 5 hours, doesn't this have a effect on the overall experience? Saw in the course comments section that it was taking more than 5 hours to play WS. Should avg speed of play effect ranking? Should we start a separate post? I realize that certain great public tracks have higher avg handicap golfers playing, many times for the 1st time. Any thoughts???

[Matt_Ward]

Brad: Just got back from Bandon and Pac Dunes and sorry to say but slow play is alive and well there.

Had two foursomes in front of me at Pac Dunes and they had caddies for EACH PLAYER. They criss-crossed each other on every hole it was like they were knitting a sweater. Each was determined to hole out no matter where the ball went or how many strokes they were piling up.

Five hour golf is not by my definition golf. Course management needs to respond. This isn't a Bandon issue alone ... it's epidemic at most upscale daily fee places. Once people pay the tariff they are determined to extract each minute as if they were being paid by the stroke!

When they got to the 17th hole they were in every conceivable position but the green. I could have read the Sunday Times with room to spare!!!

I don't have the necessary time to go into depth about my experience at Pac Dunes, but have to say hats off to Tom Doak and his team for a superb design job. The firm fescue fairways, tees (yes, they were level and provided firm footing) and greens provide for a dynamite surface second to none. Inventing shots is de rigueur at both courses. You simply can't wait to play th enext shot ... the next hole. I'm still mulling it over and over about whether Pac Dunes should be rated among the 20 best courses in America, but the more time I dwell on it I have to say it clearly merits strong consideration. Along with Bandon Dunes you have a duo no less powerful than Ruth and Gehrig of the old Yankees.

Just a question to those familiar with Pac Dunes. Do people believe it is more difficult to play the course in a summer or winter wind pattern? I played the course with a 15 mph summer wind out of the north and it made for a number of interesting holes (i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 8th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th especially). I can only imagine what it must be like to handle the 4th hole into the wind!!!

Also, do people believe the right green at the 9th is the more difficult of the two?

The scorecard also lists the 18th from championship markers at 591 yards but the real back tee length I was told is 660 yards. Why isn't the back tee set up there on a daily basis? I played from there anyway to see how the hole is and loved it. I was told by one of the staff that in the winter wind from the south it took him three metal club shots to get near the front of the green!!!

Last question -- the grass area to the immediate right of the 16th green ... is there any movement to locate a bunker to protect that side or will it be just high grass?

Superb combination of courses. Any golfer who truly understands what it means to be a golfer MUST visit Bandon in their lifetime. If you think you can play golf you will be thoroughly tested. I just hope the slow play issue is proactively targeted at Bandon because the moniker of "Pebble Beach of Oregon" should not mean the potential to face six hour golf that is the norm in California.

P.S. Kudos to the management in not having those foul food carts rolling through the grounds. The joy of the grounds should not be compromised by those unnecessary intrusions.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

We took 4, 4.5 and 4.8 for our 3 rounds at Pacific and 5 even at bandon. We had a slow group in front of us much as you described at Pacific on the slow round. the marshall stated they did not like for groups to play through but was able to get them to pick up the pace.

[ForkaB]

Matt

Have you let Keiser et. al. at Bandon know of your disapppointment?  Have you let Tom Doak know?

If not, would you be so kind as to do so, since I am playing up there in 4 weeks and I am not going to be a happy puppy if I have to carry my folding lawn chair on my bag?

Thanking you in advance.....

PS--Fortunately, the companionship promises to be good......

[THuckaby2]

Rich - remember, this is America.  What's fast here is glacial in Scotland.

My six rounds up there went about the same as John's - some fast, some slow.  But I'll tell ya, I played Pacific first group off our last morning there, and even with us going as fast as we can, it still took four hours.  There are just some long walks involved, and you just can't avoid at least a few ball searches.  You've played with me - I am not slow - nor are my friends.  We played plenty of rounds in Scotland and Ireland in 3 hours or less.  But this is just how the Bandon courses are.  Bandon if anything takes longer than Pacific.

So I'd just advise go in with no expectations of fast play.  I swear to ya, I HATE playing slow, but none of this ever bothered me up there.  The courses are just so great, I kinda WANTED to take my time...

In answer to a few of Matt's questions:

1. I only got the summer wind... But I'd guess the course plays the same in terms of difficulty both ways.  I'd say 4 and 13 balance each other out.  As you saw, 13 is an absolute brute into the summer wind... and if anything has a tougher green to hit than 4.  But given they go in exact opposite directions, I'd say balance is a fair answer.  The same goes for the rest of the course...

2. I only got to play upper 9 green, sadly.  No comment there.  To me the upper green LOOKED tougher, but the tee shot was easier to the upper fairway....

3. I was told 16 was gonna stay as it is - which I'd commend.  The fun risk-reward nature of that tee shot would be decreased massively if there was more penalty for missing short right.  As it is, that grass is playable, and for me that makes the risk worth it.

4. No comment re 18 - I didn't venture that far back - the hole was tough enough from the green tees!

Sorry it went so slow for you.  Yeah, if anything, that part is likely to only get worse.

TH

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Pacific has 10 into wind and 8 with in summer wind and i belieive will play a little easier in winter. i have played Bandon in both and it is somewhat easier and if nothing else 16 and 17 are playable.

[Bill_McBride]

One last thought.....Matt mentions a 660 yd tee on #18 Pacific Dunes. The morning we left in a drizzle, I went by the Pacific Dunes pro shop to buy a shirt and chcatted with Sally the starter.  She suggested I walk back to the pro shop, around the corner and up a path with rr ties...."HELLO!" there is a back tee for #1 back there with a 240 yd carry into the first fairway. Nice level tee, no markers, great view of about 10 sq yds of the 1st fairway!  I suggest this tee be reserved for those who are at minimum +2 golfers!  Into the typical summer winds, #1 is tight and tough. Imagine playing it from 400 with forced carry of 240 yds at a difficult angle.  I suspect Pacific Dunes can be set up tougher than Tiger and his crowd want to know!

[Matt_Ward]

Bill: Given what you said about #1 I was told the same thing about the extreme back tee on that hole. The question is can that tee box really be used even for the best players? Or is more conversational?

I can think of plenty of courses, the bext example being Industry Hills in Pomona, CA that has / had extreme back tees listed, but never really used them.

The extreme back tee on #18 is playable and certainly doesn't trick up the hole.

Does anyone really know what the actual course rating and slope is for Pacific Dunes when one includes the 18th tee at 660 yards. The scorecard says with the 18th at 591 yards the course rating is 72.9 with a 133 slope rating.

Also I saw what looked like a tee not used that is behind the 13th championship tee at 444 yards and seems to be behind the back of the 463 yard par-4 4th. Did anyone see this like I did? Is that addition meant to be used. I wonder if anyone can answer.

One last item -- what I really enjoyed about Pac Dunes was the rumpled fairways. The element of the bounce is indeed in play. A number of fairways at Bandon are straightforward cuts with little heave and ho.

Was told by club personnel that the third golf course for the resort will be inland between Hwy 101 and the main clubhouse, will be tree-lined and offer carts. The reasoning? Make it a viable option for people who can't hack handling the daily wind and prefer not to walk. Has a designer been named?

One last note -- in playing the 14th and 15th at Pac Dunes I saw what looked like a rough cut-out along side these holes for another course. This same club person indicated a fourth course might go there in the immediate future. Does anyone have any additional news about this???

FYI -- As a GD panelist I played a number of new courses being reviewed for "best new" among upscale public facilities (those charging more than $50 per round). Pac Dunes is one of the very best, if not the very best, I've played in this category. Has anyone played the following other upscale courses??? Like to get comments on how they stack up against each other. Each sits on special land, offers spectacular vistas and has an array of solid holes. Just curious if anyone can provide their comments. As much as I loved Pac Dunes these other layouts are not chump change by any means.

Arcadia Bluffs (Michigan)
Wolf Creek (Nevada)
Lost Canyons / Sky Course (California)

Thanks ...

mw

[Scott_Burroughs]

Matt,
  I've played Wolf Creek, and we already discussed some it in a previous thread.  It certainly is spectacular, and I might scan in my pics there, which turned out quite nice.
   I've also played at Lost Canyons, but I played the Shadow course, not the Sky, as the pros there told me they prefer the Shadow to the Sky.  Why isn't Shadow considered?  They opened within a few months of each other.
   Arcadia Bluffs, which I haven't played, looks to me to be the most interesting and fun course of the 3 you mentioned.

[Mike Erdmann]

Matt, I think some of these 'hidden' tees you mention at Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes are the so-called "owner's tees".  That's what I've heard them called at least.  They seem to be scattered around the course in various spots and most people would never ever see them.  For example, BD #2 has a whole different set of tees on the dune above the 1st green that approach the 2nd green from an entirely different angle.  BD #17 has a teeing area hidden in the long grass to the right of the fairway, short of the ravine.  It actually turns the hole into a par 3.  I think I saw a hidden-type tee on #4 at Pacific Dunes set down the cliff a ways, well below the grade of the standard back tee.  I was baffled how they were planning on getting a mower down to it safely.