[Will E]

From what I've heard most of his work has been altered from its original design or was constructed without Ross ever seeing the final work.
The courses I've seen with his name attached have no real consistency of bunkering that I see in CBM/SR or AM courses.
From what I can gather Seminole is pretty close and so is Pinehurst #2. Any other ideas?

[Ran Morrissett]

The Municipal course at Wilmington, NC is as good a course to go see as any as all 72 bunkers were recently - and faithfully -restored.

[TEPaul]

Some people think Ross had a consistent bunker style. He didn't. Just read his book to understand that. Ross designed all kinds of different bunkers and his specs prove it.

Some people even think Ross had a consistent green style and that's the crowned look of the greens at Pinehurst #2. Ross did all kinds of greens and Pinehurst #2 actually may be one of the few courses or maybe the only Ross course that has consistently crowned greens.

It's even thought that the crowned look of the greens at Pinehurst #2 today are far more crowned than when Ross designed and built them. The reason for that is years and years of topdressing.

[Brad Klein]

Seminole isn't close to what Ross designed in bunkers. Pinehurst No. 2 is, though its greens are not.

Good examples of Ross bunkering, whether through original work or recent restoration:
Essex County Club (Mass.), Skokie (Ill.), Lake Sunapee (N.H.), Wilmington Municipal (N.C.), Salem (Mass.), Misquamicut, Wannamoisetts, Rhode Island CC and Metacomet (R.I.), Orchards (Mass.), White Bear Lake (Minn.).

[ed_getka]

Brad,
   Have you seen the French Lick course in Indiana. How much Ross is left there? I haven't been there in a long time, but I remember some of the greens had some pretty good undulations. Especially the holes that had short iron approaches you had to end up in the right part of the green or else three-putting was a distinct possibility. Flat sand bunkering with grass faces as I remember.

[Brad Klein]

I'm going back to French Lick in late September, not having been there since early 1994.

The routing is intact, though between 14 and 15 they lengthened one and shortened the other about 15 years ago when they put a pond in. Green contours, always on the outlandish side, have been preserved, though the putting surfaces shrank owing to rounding off. The bunkers, as I recall, got flashed up. As I understand it, they're actually interested in a restoration, which is why we have a group of raters going there.

[Will E]

Brad,
Thanks for your reply.

What did the bunkering at Seminole look like before Dick Wilson's work? The photos I've seen don't seem to reflect much difference.

Part of the reason for my post was to find out if Ross did actually have a "style" of bunkering or if it depended on the construction crew.

When someone tells me they've played Oakland Hills and love the Ross bunkering aren't they really paying a complement to RTJ ?
The bunker restoration at Barton Hills in Ann Arbor doesn't seem to fit with the character of the course. They've also added some bunkering that looks like it would fit more on an Art Hills than it does here.

Thanks for the course suggestions, I'll do more research.

[Brad Klein]

Shooter, I just spent three years answering this question, in the form of research and writing a newly published book, "Discovering Donald Ross" that you might want to consult.

I can tell from his post (above) that TE Paul has read the part where I debunk the myth of Ross having created crowned greens. As you'll see in the book's photos, Pinehurst's greens and Seminole's bunkering have evolved dramatically from their original design. While there were characteristic Ross styles, they varied, and they changed over time - both in his own work and subsequently as well.

[TEPaul]

Brad:

I'm reading your book (and very slowly and carefully) and I think I did pick up the mention from your book about Pinehurst #2 and the real story on it's crowned greens.

However, we're in the process of planning a restoration at GMGC which will include total bunker restoration so I've tried to do some research on Ross in many aspects and certainly if he had a particular bunker style or not.

What I've come up with from the last three years is that Ross never really did have a particular style on many of his features certainly including his bunkering and his green shapes. I can see that you found the same thing in your years of research for your new Ross book (really good by the way).  

It is probably very misleading to look at many Ross courses now to try to determine a Ross style and certainly of bunkering because NOW is so much later and many things like redesigns and decades of maintenance can change bunkering and its "look" dramatically.

So looking at old photos is the best way to determine a Ross bunker style and it seems to me he did quite a few different things. His "look" (if he ever had one) seemed to evolve throughout his career or else he just did different things in different places or else some of this foremen (McGovern, Hatch and others) did them. But with my course, for instance he was very specific on his bunker specs in certain places and that's a good key to refer to.

It seems to me that there were certain things that Ross did not do with bunkering. Most of his bunker varitations just involved different types of bunkers and the way he handled the lips and top profiles and such. He clearly wrapped grass down to the floors on some and flashed others almost all the way up. It seems his variations mostly involved basic shapes and sizes and that he hardly ever got into doing much edge detailing with laciness or wiggles and such and/or anything much in the way of capes and bays! I take that back, he did do some basic capes and bays but they seemed to be done more for function than style or playability. The significant capes and bays seemed to be used only on his more vertical bunkering probably for support as much as anything!

It seems clear that a significant photo of a hole at Seminole (#5) was assumed to be the look of Wilson when in fact it was Ross and the photo was simply misdated!

Some early 1930s photos of Aronomink are extremely interesting because they show another look that it seems Ross never used elsewhere. Ron Prichard wondered if that look was a redesign but how likely is it that the golf club would redesign and change the look of all their bunkers between 1927 and 1933? Not very likely, in my opinion, since most of that was in the depression. So those old aerials may show even another unique variation from Ross (or maybe McGovern) that shows basic Ross bunkers but in little clusters of twos  and threes all over the course!

And furthermore, what do you make of Ross's famous (or infamous) statement at opening day at Aronomink? "I intended to make this course my masterpiece, but not until today did I realize I built better than I knew."

Do you think that might have been a bit of a slip that maybe he hadn't been around much or hadn't been too involved in things like bunker detail?

One of the more interesting Ross bunker variations was his so-called "top shot" bunkering! He did a ton of it at Gulph Mills and I'm not sure where else although it seems Bob Crosby may have found some of it in Atlanta.

I've never seen another designer do it the way Ross did at GMGC. Unfortunately, Wayne Stiles recommended that GMGC remove all of it in 1940. His reasoning was that it was probably unfair to one level of golfer and nonfunctional to the other levels. So the club removed it all. Gil Hanse wanted to restore it all and was probably as disappointed that the club didn't go for that as anything else on his restoration master plan.

The interesting thing about the old "top shot" bunkering at GMGC is it was probably just let go to grass for a while but then (maybe twenty years later) an easement water line was put through the course and the contractor was going to haul away the dirt and the green chairman said; "Oh no you're not, you're going to fill in all those old bunkers!" Fortunately the contractor ran out of dirt so the shapes of some of them are still there!

So it doesn't look like Ross had a particular bunker style (or a green style). The only thing that seems consistent about Ross's style throughout his career is his basic style of routing and the fact that he was basically an approach shot architect. Most of what I've seen from his original stuff is that he used a lot of what I'd call "false sense of security" on his tee shot designs and from there on was where he started the real strategies!

I think of Ross as a "second shot" or "approach shot" architect and the ways he did that are sometimes very subtle but extremely effective! I'm convinced that there are a good number of members at my club who have played the course for decades and still haven't figured it out. They make bogie or worse on holes hitting quite good shots and really don't understand what went wrong!

I bet Ross would probably like that. He's probably up there looking down saying to himself; "What a bunch of dumb clucks!"

[Brian Phillips]

TE Paul and Brad,

Is this not also one of the great things about Ross that there was no consistency in is designs.  That no one could really say that it was a Ross green or a Ross bunker.

Maybe this part of his work makes him even better than MacKenzie?  

Brian

[Brad Klein]

Redesigning bunkers within 6 years of opening is not unusual with Ross. I just don't know if he did it there, but he certainly reworked Brae Burn and Wannamoisett within a dozen years of his first work there. Orchards he redid 5 years later. So it's not out of the question, esp. when business was slow during the 1930s.

Capes and Bays in our sense of the word would have been very difficult given the limited technology of construction. I have a 4-minute film of Ross on site at Aronomink - heavy steam shovels, farm equipment, horse-drawn equipment and simple tractors. It looks like the Soviet Union in the 1920s, so sharply honed bunker lines were out of the question - but rough edges were surely there.

Also, don't forget that much of the look he achieved was from unirrigated fescues that would turn brown/go dormant and get long. That created much of the shaping, whereas today they use a dense green look with bluegrass, and so the only way to create imagery now is with a sharply contrasted bunker edge.

I think TEP is absolutely right when he advises to study the specific site and see how Ross' work appeared there. That was his style there, and it might not have been his elsewhere. Remember, he was not on site much, construction supervision varied, and the foreman or design associate was the one who gave the bunkers their look, not as much Ross himself.

I always go back to that drawing by W.I. Johnson depicting five different bunker types and two distinct styles of mounding. That was Ross!

[TEPaul]

Brian:

It seems to me (and it sounds like Brad too) that Ross may not have had a consistency in his bunker style or his green style, that he did lots of variations. But again it appears that there were also many styles and types that he never did do in both bunkering and greens.

I would bet, though, that someone like Brad and certainly someone like Ron Prichard and others are certainly aware of Ross's different sytles and types so they would probably be able to pick them out almost anywhere.

This might sound more impressive than it really is, though, and that is due to the fact that for some reason most people think that Ross did one type of green--crowned, and one type of bunker--generally the flashed up one--and neither of those things are true.

[TEPaul]

Brad:

When I mentioned that Ross never did certain types and styles of bunkering and that his style was a bit more basic without the jagged or lacy edging, what I meant to say is although he probably did all kinds of sizes and shapes but never anything remotely like what Cypress was with the unbelievably beautiful little details on the grass to sand lines.

Check out GeoffShac's book on Cypress! Ross's style was never within a million miles of something like that.

You should come and check out Gulph Mills. I really don't know what Ross's bunkers looked exactly like way back when, although probably not much different than they are now except bigger, but over the years the Ross bunkers, the RTJ bunkers, and the McGovern and Gordon bunkers have all come to look quite a lot alike due to our standard maintenance practices and the fact that all of them were sort of basic in shape and size even when built. Maybe they were trying to match Ross since the rest were redesigners, but I don't know that.

But the Maxwell bunkers despite almost seventy years on at least one hole look much different particularly one with it's distinctive cape and bay! Maxwell was just much different than all the others!

[Steve Sayers]

With respect to Ross green style, many of the greens at Lu Lu were originally square with a small “hump” left of center at the back of the green.  While the greens are no longer square, the “humps” left of center are still easily seen on many greens. Is this feature limited to Lu Lu or are there other Ross courses with this feature?

[Brad Klein]

Steve, if that "hump" left of center is tied in perpendicularly to a natural little grade change at the rear of the green, and esp. if the greens were orginally squared off in the back, then those are Walter Hatch's greens. He did that repeatedly as construction/design coordinator - more Ross than Ross, as one architect once said.

The pattern at many old clubs is for the green to have become rounded off and the rise in the back to become separated from the green contours, even levelled for the sake of easier maintenance/mowing. But that design element was Hatch's trademark, if you will.

[BCrosby]

Boy, you leave town for 3 or 4 days and miss another interesting thread...

If I could add my two cents to the discussion -

   - I don't think it is meaningless to talk about a Ross bunker style.  Yes, he used many different styles.  Yes, there are lots of variations.  But the five Johnson sketches and the courses Brad gives as examples define a style that is recognizable on the ground as distinctly Ross.  

   His bunkers tend to have rolled faces, they tend to be built into existing terraces and ridges (or green fill pads), they tend to be  more "oblong" than circular (Maxwell) and they are rarely/never amoeba-like (MacK).  I think it was critical to Ross that his bunkers look natural and of a piece with the terrain of the golf course. His construction notes indicate that bunkers be built almost always into existing land forms, or at least appear that way.  It is rare to see dug-out, ice cream scoop shapes like Maxwell at Southern Hills or bunkers built on mounds specifically constructed for the purpose of holding a bunker (I'm thinking of the MacK bunker in the fairway on 10 at ANGC).  There is almost never a WOW! reaction to a Ross bunker as there often is with MacK or, say, RTJ.  They are just there; quietly, naturally there.

    All of which is not to say that there isn't plenty of variation.  There is some flashing, there are some circular bunkers, there are some (though very, very few) cape and bay edges.  But I don't agree with TEP that there isn't a Ross style bunker.  I don't think his style was quite as catholic as TEP claims it was.

    I think a lot of the apparent variation in Ross bunkering is due to (i) unsupervised construction of his courses, (ii) if supervised, then Hatch, Maples and others that headed up the Ross crews had their own personal preferences, and (iii) club/committtee tinkering, the records for which have been lost or, sometimes, intentionally destroyed.  

Since Ross oversaw the construction of so little of his own work, a lot of what we think of Ross variations can be traced to the people who actually built his courses.

   - A minor point, but one of the things I've noticed in my research is how the size of Ross' bunkers has gradually shrunk over the years.  For example, at the Athens CC, Ross desinged several massive greenside bunkers that have shrunk to near insignificance.  Has anyone seen similar "shrinkage" at other courses?

    - Ross was a big proponent of grass bunkers.  He designed many of them.  They seem, however, to be the first to get plowed under.  The Johnson sketches highlight the importance Ross placed on them.  I suspect they get removed because of the mowing difficulties they present.  Don't know.  Any thoughts?

    - Topped-shot bunkers (or, to use Brad's more felicitious phrase, "carry bunkers") appear often on Ross courses.  I would guess that in the 1920's they appear in virtually every course design I've had a chance to look at.  In one instance, Ross indicates in notes I have seen that he wanted them to frame a fairway, but he also wanted them at places where "framing" can't possibly be their purpose. There was an interesting thread here a couple of months ago that addressed what other purposes Ross might have had in mind with carry bunkers.  I won't try to summarize it here.

   - Ross' design for the Athens CC call for a number of cluster bunkers.  Groups of 3 to 5 small bunkers sometimes separated by (or merging with) grass bunkers.  Very interesting.  I saw a little of that at Salem on TV this summer.  My gues is that he used the cluster concept where he wanted a bunker for strategic purposes but the land form didn't provide any existing ridges or rises that he could dig into.

   - Ross also designed what I call "foozle" bunkers.  These are bunkers that tend to be 30 to 40 yards short of a green, usually in the right rough, but sometimes on the left.  They can only be there to catch the really bad golfer on his worst day.  Along with the carry bunkers, they are typically among the first bunkers to be removed.  I would appreciate any input the tree house gang might have on their purpose.  I'm stumped.

         

   

           

[SPDB]

On this topic, can anybody shed some light on what happened at Wampanoag? I had heard (or read?) that the prez. of the Donald Ross society was a member and had sought to (and maybe completed) fully restore the course to DR's specs, and in the unprocess undo a nunmber of changes Brian Silva (?) made to the course? If I remember correctly, the tone of the interview about how this particular gent viewed silva's changes, sounded eerily familiar to what has been said on this DG re: Fazio's work at Merion.

[Steve Sayers]

Brad:

Thanks for the insight – I guess I’ll learn more about Walter Hatch as I delve further into Discovering Donald Ross.

While not appropriate to this thread, I would like to contact you to discuss Ross’s involvement with the St. Gilbert Masonic Lodge and the history of Lu Lu (formerly Lu Lu Temple CC started by the Shriners in 1909).  Please e-mail me at “Sri Bunga Raya@aol.com”

SS

[ForkaB]

BCrosby

Dornoch has several "foozle" bunkers, even to this day, mostly on the long par 4's (3, 4, 7, 11, 17, 18).  Let me assure you that they are in fact in play, even for the realtively accomplished player  Particularly into the wind.  A general pattern for each of them is that they are set up to catch a mishit second shot from a ball hit out of the rough on the "bail out" side of the fairway.  In those cases, you are generally required to hit a shot over the foozle bunker from an iffy lie if you want to get on or close to the green.  They add to a good test of strategy, execution and nerve.

I'm not sure if these bunkers were around in the days that Ross lived there (the 11th certainly wasn't, as the hole didn't exist then!), but there is no plan that I know of to remove them in the near future (i.e. the next millenium).

[TEPaul]

Bob:

If I said Ross never had a bunker style, I really didn't mean it that way. I meant he didn't really have a particular style and did many kinds of things and he certainly evolved throughout his career. What you said about his formen (an maybe others) is undoubtably true too. He probably had a general "style" but he did so many different variations of shapes and sizes and even uses that it isn't that easy to pin down. I do think I said that an expert would be able to recognize a Ross bunker no matter the shape, size, whatever. And he did do plenty that were grassed all the way to the flat bunker floor and others that were sand flashed all the way up and others in between. Personally I think Ross bunkers are as recognizable as much for what he never did do as for what he did.

As for you asking if anybody knows of other Ross bunkers that have shrunk over the years. I would like to know if anyone knows of any Ross bunkers that haven't. Shrinking and shrunken bunkers is just the grass growing out, mostly on the low or drainage sides and also some intentional maintenance practices and also economy measures, particularly around the depression and WW2.

As for the "top shot" or "carry" bunkers, I think you have a point that they may have had somewhat of a "framing" purpose but also Ron Prichard made a very good case that Ross used them doubly for very weak players to have something strategic to deal with as well as a feature to catch topped shots from better or even very good players!

Prichard claims that Ross hated topped shots and this is the way he dealt with them architecturally. With the firm ground conditions of that era he thought it not right to allow a topped shot to be rewarded in anyway by "running out" anywhere near where a proper shot might go. It's interesting too that as Brad Klein said that Ross's own shot style (he was a good player) was the low runnning hook--a shot that was common in those days and probably one that was fairly easy to top!

[Ed_Baker]

I had a hell of a time convincing our membership to restore the Ross "foozle bunkers" on our course because each bunker start to finish with irrigation was running $5500.00 per copy!Eventually the permise of "restoration" won out and all the original bunkers were restored.

What we found in our research was that many of the bunkers were originally in the fairway and it was the mowing patterns from world war II that had placed them in the rough!Unfortuneately many are still in the rough,change is difficult.

It is amazing how many balls enter the foozle bunkers and how foolish the player feels.We now play an extra "dot" if someone makes par out of one of the foozles.

[BCrosby]

Rich -

I hadn't seen it and it was right there in front of me. As at Dornoch, the Ross foozle bunkers tend to be on longer par 4's or reachable par 5's.  They make a lot of sense if the second shot is a long iron or a fairway wood.  

Tom -

About original bunker sizes - I just found a 1938 aerial of Athens CC.  It was taken only 12 years after construction. The thing that jumps out at you in the photo is that while the fairway bunkers seem to be built to Ross specifications, the greenside bunkers seem to be much smaller than what Ross wanted.  In most cases 50% less square footage than indicated in the Ross construction drawings.  I have no idea why that is.

By the way, great summary of the strategy of the Ross "carry" bunker.  If you don't mind, I plan to rip it off for my little history.  Just wanted to thank you in advance.    

[john_stiles]

It is always fun to read and hear from Brad K, Doak, or Ron Prichard on Ross bunkering and I agree with the others' postings about Ross bunkers.

I would like to add that the the bunkering (sand and grass) at Holston Hills (1927) is 'pretty' original or as original as possible given 75 years have passed.

You should stop by and see some of the bunkering. Not that some bunker work isn't needed here and there !  

There are about 104 bunkers or so with several of the 'cross' fairway bunkers and a few 'foozle' bunkers allowed to return to grass during WWII.

Some cross bunkers were returned to sand with arch input from Doak but there are still a few well-preserved grass bunkers.  None of the grass bunkers were bulldozed and the grass bunkers still have beautiful (original) shapes, faces, and forms that haven't been changed much.

Ross was at the course several times and obviously his construction superintendent (Hatch ?) did a great job completing the course.  In any case, the bunkers are as  original as may be possible .......as we have not had any help from 'outside agencies' in  course/architectural improvement.  You can see a bit of the bunkering and get some flavor from the photos on GCA for Holston Hills.

Also, must admit that the club has always struggled somewhat and has probably never had excess funds for course work. Didn't want to imply that past or present members are smart, all-seeing and all-knowing. We are dumb lucky for the most part in not changing our wonderful Ross bunkers.

Would also like to add my 'foozle' strategy as there are a few foozle bunkers as I mentioned.  My favorite strategy, if you have too much pride (and it is also a good strategy in stroke play), is to casually walk just ever so slightly towards the foozle with club in hand, looking straight ahead towards the green, then swiftly veer towards your ball, and with no practice swing, hit it sharply out. Your foursome knows but no use letting everyone on the course know !   Poor shots out of foozles lead to double bogeys or worse ... think it out well in advance, quickly assess your lie, distance to and height of the bunker face, and whack!... try to get up & down for par.

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