[Tim_Weiman]

I recently spent a very pleasurable day with the developer of a golf course due to open sometime next year.  After touring the course, our conversation turned to the subject of marketing.  The developer wants to maintain public access, but he is not really interested in doing another CCFAD.  He wanted my opinion on doing something a little bit different, a “hybrid” as he put it.

What he has in mind is creating a private club for the weekends while marketing to the corporate outings business during the week.  Perspective members would be advised up front that the idea is a tradeoff: exclusive use of the course is limited to the weekends but the cost of membership (initiation and annual dues) would be significantly less than the price of memberships at local area private clubs.

I advised the developer that to my knowledge this approach wasn’t very common in the United States, but in reality that is kind of what happens at famous clubs in Europe.  Members enjoy comparatively low dues by virtue of the “green fees” collected from visiting golfers.

But, could something like this work in the States?  Would people join what I’ll call a “weekend” club?

For the moment I don’t want to get into the name and location of the course, but for the sake of discussion you can assume the following facts:

1)The property is as good or maybe even better than, any course, public or private, within 100 miles.
2)The developer designed and built the course himself.  The results aren’t perfect, but one would have to say he did a surprisingly good job.
3)The property will remain completely free of any real estate development.
4)The local CCFAD market is limited (maybe three courses) and none of them really compares to what is at this site.
5)There is a large selection of private clubs in the market.
6)By designing and building the course himself, the developer has positioned himself to be a low cost supplier of “quality golf”.
7)The weekend membership might be sold at less than 25 percent of the market price for high end clubs and perhaps half the price of initiation at typical clubs in the area.  
8)Moreover, assuming reasonable success in building a corporate outings business, annual dues for the “weekend membership” can be maintained at about one third the cost at typical area clubs.
9)The club will have a clubhouse with simple but adequate facilities, including locker rooms, bar and limited dining.  
10)Members could play the course during the week provided the course wasn’t occupied by outside business.  However, access to the course would be restricted to members and guests on the weekends.

What do you think?  Would such a concept make sense?  Would you join such a club?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tim, What he is thinking is nothing new out here in SoCal. All of these CCFAD's are scurrying about coming up with creative marketing campaigns to lure the weekend player into joining, while leaving the course open for access to the public and corporate-set tournaments druing the regular work week.

Sure, the concept will work as long as the newness of the course is still there, but once it wears off these type of courses are "traded-in" for the newer sportier models. The same way one would lease an automobile like a BMW.

What a shallow existence.

[RJ_Daley]

Tim, I think that there are all kinds of niche markets, and I'm sure that concept of a weekend club has a small market that would be attracted to it.  I guess that when evaluating a market, one would have to consider how big the pool of prospective member-joiners there would be in that particular size market.  Obviously, the bigger the pool, the more likelyhood there will be those niche prospects.  I doubt the idea would go over in a small urban-suburban market like I live in here in GB.  But a metro large population area might have enough potential takers.  How does the developer plan to measure the market for his idea?  Measure twice - cut once, right?

I can't say that the idea has much appeal to me personally.  I think the best times at a club would be on men's day, ladies day, and such during the week.  I wouldn't want to be relegated to two weekend days when other things are usually going on.  Which days do you usually go to Sand Ridge, and which days are the most pleasurable there?

[ForkaB]

Tim

It shouldn't be an either/or situation.  "Members" ought to get a shot at mid-week tee times too, after the paying clientele has been satisfied (or on an equal basis), and weekends should accommodate visitors too, after the members have had their fill.  This is closer to the "European" model.

It really helps if you don't have a large numbers of retirees as members and/or you have a relief course wher members can play when the main course is full.

No reason why it couldn't work in the States.

[Tim_Weiman]

Dick Daley:

My own experience leaves me bit torn. As for playing at Sand Ridge, I rarely have the time to go during the week.  You might say that occasionally I use the club for business during the week and my real "personal" use of the club is restricted to the weekends.

As for which day is most enjoyable, really what matters to me is playing with folks I enjoy whether that be guests or members.

I say I'm a bit torn because of my experience across the pond. The "European concept" of a club makes a lot of sense economically.  The cost of membership on a per round basis is really attractive. At the same time, the feeling and atmosphere of a club - a place where like minded golf loving folks come together - is maintained despite significant outside use of the club.

In short, the Europeans probably have it all figured out better than we do: quality golf at an affordable price with all the joy of a meeting place for long time friends.

While the economics clearly make sense, it seems to me that the biggest challenge is creating a club or what I'll call the local watering hole, a "Cheers" like environment for members, a place you don't want to leave even when BMW comes out with its newest model.

When this developer bounced his idea off me my thoguths immediately turned to a friend of modest means, someone I'll call "blue collar" who loves golf and would love to belong to a club, but can't possibly afford it.  CCFADs don't really interest him and his work schedule usually rules out playing during the week.  What he wants is a club where he can go on weekends but without coming up with the equivalent of a down payment and mortgage payment every month.

That's what folks in Europe have.

Tommy N:

It sounds like things have changed in SoCal since I left there in 1995.  Which CCFADs are pursuing the weekend membership approach? What kind of fees are they charging? Has this approach been successful?

Oh, and are you a member of Pelican Hill, your favorite local venue?

[Tim_Weiman]

Rich:

I understand that at most European clubs there isn't a strict division of time between weekends (for members) and weekdays (for visitors).

But, my experience in Scotland and Ireland is that member's expectations are different than here in the States.

In the US people usually associate joining a club with exclusivity.  Across the pond a club membership is valued but remaining open for outside play is also appreciated for the cost savings it brings.

Now, there are examples of well known American clubs with significant outside play.  Oakmont comes to mind as an example.  No wonder they have such a huge and profitable pro shop!

Yet, I wonder how many Americans would be willing to come up with say $5-10,000 for a "membership" when the public seemed to have substantial use of the course damn near whenever they want.

So, I'm left liking the idea in principal, but wondering how the concept would sell here in the States??

[ForkaB]

Tim

If the alternative were $25-30K for an exclusive membership.....??

[Tom Steenstrup]

 

quote:In the US people usually associate joining a club with exclusivity. Across the pond a club membership is valued but remaining open for outside play is also appreciated for the cost savings it brings.

Usually the openess works this way: Once you're a member of a club, you automatically get green-fee access to all other clubs. So, while the clubs are open to green-fee play, they still expect you to be a member somewhere. Also, most clubs will check your handicap index to see if you are qualified to play at all.

So, it works two ways: The clubs are open for green-fee because they can make money, but also because it's part of the green-fee network that the clubs constitute.

Could you imagine this in the US: You join your local CC in Nowhereville, and the next day show up at Cypress Point for a round. Of course, the green-fees at CPC would probably be outrageous, but still, at least you could get on...

Tom

[John_Conley]

If the club remains private on the weekend and the outside play is moderate (e.g. club closed on Monday, open for outside play on T/W, and bookable for corporate outings on Th/F) I would join in a heartbeat.

Many clubs in the Orlando area aim to be private, do not hit a critical mass for members, open up for daily fee play, and dilute the product so far that "semi-private" is by definition "mostly-public".

It comes down to economics.  If there is enough market for high-end daily fee, he's probably better going that route.  It sounds as though there isn't.  I'd think enough cost savings need to be wrung out of the construction and maintenance to make it feasible.  It sounds as though your membership revenue (initiation and dues) will be a lot less than market price.

Many courses in Europe are not the same from a business standpoint as American courses.  That is, they don't need to cover large start-up costs AND provide a healthy ROR for the developer.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Steenstrup:

Actually, gaining access to a place like Cypress Point doesn't come from joining a club anywhere in Nowhereville, USA.

You must be European to even think such a thing!

What is true is that membership in a club usually puts you in a network that may help on the matter of access.  The network may be local or it may even be national in scope.  But, clearly there is a pecking order and a great number of clubs require the presence of a member to play.  My home club, Sand Ridge, is an example.  You can't just call up and play because you are a member somewhere.

Are there ways around that?  Well, yes. There are many American clubs I've visited just because I wanted to see what they offer architecturally. Many are surprisingly gracious.

But, just don't come with an attitude that you are entitled to a visit.  It doesn't work that way.  The clubs and their members have every right to say no.

My question is based on a couple assumptions:

First, the European model has attractive features, particualrly in an age when the cost of golf is getting out of hand.

Second, culturally the US is different than say the UK & Ireland.  So what works across the pond may not necessarily work here in the States.

Actually, I'm terribly worried that we Americans are bringing some of our bad habits (slow play, high costs, etc.) to your part of the world.

[Tim_Weiman]

John Conley:

Thanks for your feedback.

You've touched on one of my biggest concerns, specifically how you keep the product from being diluted. The developer doesn't yet have any strict ideas as to dividing up play weekdays vs weekends.  I threw that out based on my gut feeling that you are right: there is a big risk "semi private" will be perceived as "mostly public".

What may help this developer is the overall quality of his property and cost structure he starts with. He acquired the land at an attractive price. He made it through permitting without serious hassles, attorney fees, etc. His background in construction, with a specific specialty in excavation work, allowed with to minimize the cost of moving the dirt he moved. Finally, he assembled a small team of very dedicated people with industry experience in both construction and maintenance.

Thus, while his ideas on pricing are still to be determined, he knows that from a cost standpoint, he can price very competitively and still be profitable.

[Craig Disher]

Tim,
What you've described sounds much like my understanding of a "semi-private" club. There are a few around Washington, DC, that have an initiation fee about a quarter to a third of what the private clubs charge. Monthly dues are only slightly less. What the member gives up is guaranteed access during the week. The concept seems to work; the semi-privates continue to do well while many of the ccfads are suffering.

At most private clubs in the UK dues are kept down by making the course available to golfing societies - small groups of golfers sanctioned by the EGU and permitted to maintain official handicaps. The societies usually get an hour or two of tee-times on weekdays leaving the course mostly available to the members. Another advantage to opening the course to societies is that the society members tend to be serious golfers who play quickly, take care of the course, and spend freely in the bar. I don't believe closing the course for a day to accommodate a corporate outing would be acceptable at most of the UK clubs. I remember someone asking me about the American practice of "machine-gun" starts.

[David Wigler]

Tim,

We have a club here in Metro Detroit that basically functions exactly as you said - It is called Bay Pointe.  The problem is that the members are constantly upset because the outings never take care of the course (Fix ball marks, repair divots, etc.).  They struggle mightily with conditioning and end up turning over their membership constantly.  The members I know wish they had not joined because feel that a CCFAD would be better for weekdays or a real club for weekends.

[Tim_Weiman]

Craig Disher:

Thanks for your feedback. By any chance can you give me the names of one or two courses in the DC area that would be worth contacting for discussion on this topic???

David Wigler:

Interesting point.

I play as much public course golf as I do at my private club. While I hate to stereotype, I would agree that public golfers seem far less concerned with taking care of the course than fellow club members.

Maybe making an investment in a place is necessary to "give a damn".

Has Bay Pointe tried anything special to address the issue?  Or is it a lost cause?

[Paul Turner]

I'm not convinced that green fee income in the UK is all that influential in keeping the membership fee down, far below a typical US fee. I've played dozens of courses that have low annual fees without much green fee income.  Sure, the green fees help a bit but we're talking factors of 5-10+ differences between UK and US in yearly membership fees!

I'm sure it has much more to do with sensible maintenance standards that don't cost a fortune.  And the exclusivity factor too.

[Tim_Weiman]

Paul Turner:

The European standards for maintenance may explain part of the difference in cost structure verses private American clubs but not by the amount you suggest.

Take the budget figures for a place like Ballybunion.  There is no question that high green fee income is the key to maintaining low annual membership fees.  In fact, the club, if it opened more time to green fees, could actually pay members an annual dividend rather then charge dues!

I'm not saying that every European club is so fortunate or that there aren't other factors at work as well, but different maintenance practices explain only part of the picture.  Outside income is very important for many European clubs.

[Dennis_Harwood]

Tim-- I believe your terminology of "private" is not applicable to the situation you describe--

In the US both tax laws and various anti-discrimination/ADA/alcoholic beverage/etc laws would prevent a club from being "private" a portion of the time, and open for non-member play the rest of the time--

Legally a club facility that was open to the public a substainal period of the time(even one day a week would be enough) and generated material revenues from souces other than a limited, select and exclusive membership, would by definition be a "public facility" and be a "for profit" entity--

What you describe is no different than what the vast majority of new clubs in the US are already offering. For those who pay a premium they are given priority or exclusive rights to club access during certain periods-Whether that is priority in starting times or limited groups entitled to play on certain days makes no difference--You are not a true or legal "private club" part of the time-

Whether that access right is simply a right to priority(advance) time to make starting times or "dressed up" with a marketing gimick of "private membership" makes no difference legally--you are not(and legally can not) offer private membership in the club and secure the rights accorded by law to true private clubs--

Yes, although I not sure Tommy N has paid the $500 or so required,  Pelican Hills does offer "memberships", called the "gold club" or something like that, which gives you a card, lets you establish a handicap, and on weekends gives you an extra day to reserve starting times before the "public"(non-gold club "members") can call-- Even all the local munis offer that kind plan--But are they truely "private" part of the time? No

What you describe is an advertizing agency's marketing plan-- Not a legally feasible structure in this country

(A group could form the "Pelican Hills Wedsday Morning Club", plan to play every wedsday and conduct events among themselves providing they received no income from any outsiders--But that does not make the Pelican Hills Course private when they are on the course)--

[Tim_Weiman]

Dennis Harwood:

Funny you should bring up the legal issue as this developer is well aware that he needs some good legal advice before going to market.

Not being a lawyer, I wonder how important it is to call the club "private".  What he is really trying to achieve is simply an arrangement which designates certain time periods (e.g., weekends) to people who pay a large fee up front for guaranteed access.  By contrast, those who chose not to pay up front, have the option of playing at other times (i.e., weekdays).

That doesn't strike me as discrimination, just a different product offering.  People of any background, race, religon, sex, sexual orientation, nationality, disability status, etc. can chose either option.  One simply costs more and provides more benefit.

Do I have it wrong? Are you saying this can't be done?

[Paul Turner]

Tim

I'd like to see the typical maintenance budget for a top UK club verses the US equivalent.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was often a factor of 5 larger.    

Also, how much does the maintenance cost depend on the number of rounds played?  If you double the number of rounds do the costs double? Quadruple? Only 50% more?

As you say, Ballybunion isn't a typical case because it has so many green fee rounds. In fact I'm surpised they don't have a surplus. What are the annual fees? Probably about 1000 quid would be my guess.  Without the green fees I find it difficult to believe that the annual fees would have to sky rocket to 5-10K for the equivalent maintenance.  I've played too many fine courses in good shape that don't get a great deal of green fee income and which still only charge the members 4-500 quid per annum.

[Tim_Weiman]

Paul Turner:

My understanding is that annual dues for local members at Ballybunion are about 300 pounds.

Actually, the club is close to "running a surplus" if you factor in debt retirement.  That's one reason some work is planned on the Cashen course in a couple years and why some additional club facilities are under consideration.

Someone more knowledgeable than I would have to comment on whether there is any correlation between maintenance expenses and the number of rounds played. My guess is that there is no such correlation.  Each club simply decides what it wants to spend and what it can afford.  Americans get far more hung up on everything being maintained  so well than Europeans do.  Hence, we tend to spend more in this area.

[Dennis_Harwood]

Tim--  I'm not saying that the general arrangment you propose can not be done--I'm only saying that the "label" privare may be "false adverizing"--You may "sell" rights to priority access, but those interests will not be what is often considered in this country as membership in a "private club"--

Two other options--(1) Selling investor interests which entitle the investors to priority course access--however if the club allows public play that does not make the interest acquired interests in a private club

(2) Classes of membership are sold which may entitle those in different classes to different rights(Anytime access vs weekday access)However in this case only members who have acquired one class of membeship are entitled to access--That kind of club can be private, but my impression was that the club needed public play to support its operations--

Finally caution must be exercised that whatever is sold does not grant to the buyer future rights that can not be changed or revolked if the developer holds a material interest in the project and needs to have all options available concerning the future of the project if the "split use" does not work.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thanks for the assist there Dennis. I think it is obvious just who the Mighty Ducks "Go To Guy" really is!

Tim, pretty much all of the courses you may have or may have not played here in SoCal before you left are using this creative packaging to sell their tee times. They need the money up front.

Tijeras Creek was even offering all you can eat and drink at the snack bar, as well as unlimited golf and driving range use for the sum of one exhorbitant green fee.

Coyote Hills is another, and really actually the only one that has the nerve to market the course as semi-private.

[David Wigler]

Tim,

Sorry it took a day to respond.  Bay Pointe's member ship has decided it is hopeless.  I think the problem is that there is a small distinction between the private and public golfer (Sorry Tommy - but you are the exception that proves the rule) and a huge distinction between the public golfer and the outing golfer.

The private golfer has an investment in their course and goes there constantly.  They are likely to not only fix their own divots but fill in others, etc.  I am not naive enough to believe all qualify but most do and the members who do not repair ball marks, replace divots, rake traps, etc. are made to feel unwelcome.  The public golfer who loves golf does all of the same things but knows that others on the course do not share their passion and since they are not coming back, do not treat the course the same way.

The outing golfer is in a different world.  It is the Admin Assistant who plays once a year and drives the cart onto the green because she doesn't know better.  The Sales Manager who gets so drunk that his sod divots go further than the ball.  The boss who is never going to replace a ball mark because that is what others are for.

Have you ever followed an outing?  Beer cans line the rough.  Kit Kat candy bar wrappers are everywhere.  The course is trashed.  I know because I take customers to 4-5 of these scramble outings a year.  Bay Pointe cannot solve this issue.  There is no conceivable way that a course can host 3 or 4 outings a week and be in playable shape on the weekend.

I know that Indianwood's superintendent is an infrequent poster to the site.  Indianwood is one of the great classic courses in the US and hosts outing on most Monday's during the golf season.  I would love to hear what he has to do to get the course in shape for member play after just one outing a week.

[ForkaB]

David

I was the Finance guy at a small club in the UK 5 or so years ago, and we welcomed weekday (and even weekend) golfing "societies."  We received about $100k per year for this, which either...

--reduced membership fes by $200/year for our 500 members, or
--paid for our maintenance budget of $100k/year

...depending on how you look at it.  At that time, our annual membership fees were about $3-400/year (fairly typical for Fife) so it was not an insignificant number.

There were some significant differences with your scenario:

1.  Virtually all of the players were, at least rudimentarily, golfers.  They knew about etiquette and how to treat a course.  Because they were on an outing, and many were very occasional players, their behavior was not impeccable, but it was probably equal to or better than the average US golfer (public or private),

2.  The outings were done concurrent with member play.  The normal "outing" schedule was:
 --a morning snakc

[ForkaB]

...a morning snack
 --18 holes
 --lunch
 --18 more holes
 --drinnks and award ceremonies

All this was done in 10 hours or so.  Before the original tee off, during lunch, and after the last afternoon tee off, member play could be and was accommodated.

It is a different world.

PS--Based on my knowledge of the finances of a similar club, Tim Weiman is most probably right about the annual fees at Ballybunion (300 quid or so).  At that rate they should be generating a very healthy surplus which is probably going into capital improvements and/or debt repayment.

It is a VERY different world.

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