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Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2001, 05:09:00 PM »
My fun was to manufacture a low, closed faced bunker shot below the bows of the pines on the right side of #2, Merion East.
A flat faced bunker, beautifully designed for this effort, and if hit the way I conceived it to come out, there it was on the green.
Willie


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2001, 07:33:00 PM »
Rich:

I've played Pebble Beach on five or six occasions and been very fortunate on Number 8 with only one fair to poor tee shot.

Hence, on all but one occasion I went for the green, though I usually wimped out and played more club than necessary.

On the one occasion I didn't go for the green, I played from the left rough maybe 210-215 yards out.  Lacking the confidence to go for the green, I left myself with a pitch of about 75 yards and made bogey.

If you meant to imply that the second shot is so inspiring that one can't help but have a go at the green, I agree with you.  Still, the "strategic" option does exist to play safely to the left of the green in the event of a poor tee shot.

I just don't see the equivalent on Number 5 at Pine Valley. One could argue that a layup shot is possible.  Hell, to be honest, I've even thought about it.  But, this ooption doesn't seem much different than going directly for the green. Hence, the meaning of "penal" seems pretty clear when applied to this hole.

Tim Weiman

ForkaB

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2001, 07:53:00 PM »
Tim

I think what I was saying is that if you hit a reasonable drive (i.e. execute the first step of Plan A), there is no Plan B for anybody but the infirm or the complete wimp.  I think we agree.

Rich


TEPaul

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2001, 06:54:00 AM »
I don't know, I think on the distinctions and accuracy of the terms "penal", "heroic" and even "strategic" that their various charateristics apply pretty well and are quite clear if one uses them as they were meant to be used. So the definitions really shouldn't be particularly fuzzy.

I think Mark Fine described the distinctions and definitions very well above, certainly between "penal" and "heroic".

Penal is definitely a feature or concept where mostly distance alone and quite a lot of it generally in a perpendicular, all encompassing, no option or very low option sense is brought into play as the feature of the shot or hole.

Heroic almost always should be considered a feature or concept where both large VARIATIONS in certainly distance but also degrees of angle are used.  

About the most naturally best looking, probably the most effective and maybe the best example of a herioc shot would seem to me to be #5 Mid Ocean. The hole is famous mostly for that very thing, I'm sure. I've looked at that hole for a long time to see what exactly it is about that angle or diagonal that makes it so great. I think I decided that much of it has to do with the fact that the gentle diagonal (the shoreline) starts well to the RIGHT and below the tee, so there is something to carry! But the gentle diagonal of the shoreline/fairway is so confusing to estimate, and additionally is either aided or made more confusing by the height of the tee! But the diagonal is so gentle that obviously a very slight variation on the tee shot's accuracy translates into a large need (or not) for distance of carry. Certainly this tee shot is one of the best examples in golf of "herioc" but the point is the tee shot hardly has to be "penal" at all if you choose it not to be. Far be it from me to think of some kind of conceptual improvement to a world class hole but just think how much more meaningful and tempting this particular tee shot would be and could be if somehow the green on this hole swung well left off the fairway/shoreline diagonal (at maybe a 45% angle). This would make the need for more distance on the tee shot much more important. But McD. simply used a natural shoreline and green site all the way along just the way it was, so what are you going to do?

Some other great examples of one degree or another of diagonal to create some great "heroic" shots and choices that don't have to be "penal" are Merion's #5, Pebble's #18, Seminole's #15, Maidstone's #7, #17.

Then some other holes that can be very  heroic with wide variations of distance and small degrees of angle but just a bit penal using other features and concepts are NGLA's #1,#2,#7,#17,#18, GCGC's #1,#2!!,#11 and some of the others Pat can explain better than me. Seminole's #3, #6, #16, #18 and of course many many great classic holes that are too numerous to mention. But they are all good examples of how holes and shots can be very "heroic" but not particularly "penal" if you don't want them to be which makes the distinction in the terms quite clear to me.

I will mention one last hole that has all kinds of things going for it including extremely interesting degrees of both "heroic and "penal". It's Easthampton's #11 and I'm told Bill Coore's favorite. It's a very short hole whose fairway cants quite a bit right to left towards bunkering and high grass left (penal) that is all set on a gentle but brilliant diagonal from the tee. Add to this that the green is set over to the left enough to pull a golfer's aim from the tee at it! Add to this that the end of the diagonal on the left is blind to the strong golfer on the tee. And the real kicker is unless someone is almost going to try to drive this green it might not make that much difference where you are on the fairway, although it sort of appears in everyway that it does!!

With holes like this one and certainly #17 Easthampton it definitely appears that Coore and Crenshaw have come up with some of the most clever ways ever known of getting into a golfer's head bigtime with the uses of angle, green orientation, sizes, shapes, elevation changes and almost anythng else you can think of including in one brilliant case a NUMBER!

Got a little off the subject there but I agree with Mark Fine, it's quite clear to me the distinctions between "penal" and "heroic" and their separate meanings.


Paul Turner

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2001, 03:39:00 PM »
I reckon that old Aber's 13th at The Addington is the best inland par 3 around (even better than Swinley's 5 great 3s, Pulborough's 5th&6th, Notts 13th and Yale's 9th).

And unless you lay up short, it's a very penal hole too; the small target just focuses the mind.


D Moriarty

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2001, 06:20:00 PM »
Number 12 at Manele Bay:  
  Penal? 202 yards with a 190 yard carry from ocean cliff to ocean cliff.  
  Strategic? Smack it long and play a short shot back toward the ocean cliff, off a downhill lie.
  Fun? Yes, whether I make it or not.

Or turn 180 degrees on the same tee box and play 17.  
  Penal? 230 yards of ocean carry with nowhere to go but over.
  Strategic? Don't fall off the cliff.
  Fun?  Watching how far my ball will bounce back into the ocean IF it makes it to the cliff across the way. (The Pro V really trampolines off the cliff!)  


Jeff_McDowell

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2001, 10:01:00 AM »
TEPaul,

Your descriptions of different penal, strategic, and heroic golf holes had my head spinning and smoke coming out of my ears. I think your descriptions are wonderful, but your post is a perfect example of the fuzziness of their definitions.

Personally, I think the heroic style is either strategic or penal, but with exagerrated risk/reward factors.


Gertrude Stein

What makes a hole both penal and fun
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2001, 10:24:00 AM »
A golf hole is a golf hole is a golf hole.