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George_Bahto

The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2001, 07:51:00 PM »
Guys, sorry for this 2-way conversation

Matt: I think a get together at Forsgate would be fun.

The "funnest" green at Essex County is green #2 - of course the hole is too short. We recommended a major green expansion there - especially forward toward the fairway - the way it was built.

As you said and many agree, the back nine at ECCC is the best complete nine holes in NJ. Couple that with the back nine on the original ECCC West and you really have an 18-holer.

Minr snf Gil's proposal to ECCC consisted of adding about 35 to 40 fairway bunkers as originally presented by Raynor and Banks. They are going to restore the present bunkers for now but not add any new ones.

Following Hanse's master plan they have removed tons of trees as we had suggested and they will continue (now that the tree-huggers are getting used to it ... what an on-going problem at all clubs - well, nearly all clubs).

Last year at North Shore CC on Long Island (Raynor greens over a basic early Tillinghast routing) I had the pleasure of removing about 200 trees or more on their 7th hole. Went down the entire left side of the property and then behind the green - we took out a 20'-wide swath.

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

NAF

The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2001, 09:40:00 AM »
George/Pat/Matt,

Am I right in saying #3 on the Banks 9 is redanish but the green just isnt tilted enough anymore or was it ever?

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Matt_Ward

The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2001, 10:23:00 AM »
NAF:

From what my sources have indicated the green has always featured the same type of elevation.

If it had any amount of serious pitch like the 2nd at Somerset Hills it would take a Tiger Woods type approach shot to get anywhere near the pin.

A superb hole that is often overlooked in NJ.

Quite possibly George would know for sure!

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Doug Braunsdorf

Re: The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2009, 08:56:47 PM »
Bump

Stumbled across this, while reading about Charles Banks.  Rock Spring Club, a Charles Banks course in West Orange, NJ hosted the NJ State Open from Tuesday to Thursday this week.

It looked great.  It probably played better.  July has been beautiful thus far. 

I had heard it was a little short, but, there are many unique holes on the course.  Not really the "template" holes, but, Banks seemed to go one step beyond the templates, making more unique holes.  Hopefully, Kelly or George will see this and weigh in. 

Kelly Blake Moran did a great job on the golf course.  Congratulations Kelly.  
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 09:01:09 PM by Doug Braunsdorf »
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"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Matt_Ward

Re: The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2009, 09:32:54 PM »
Doug:

Rock Spring is a decent layout but it's more towards the rear of the line in terms of really first rate efforts by the man himself.

Montclair's #4 nine is really unique -- the bowl-shaped dog-leg left downhill par-5 1st is solid -- ditto the long par-4 2nd, the redan par-3 3rd and on and on it goes.

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Doug Braunsdorf

Re: The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2009, 09:59:28 PM »
Quote from: Matt_Ward on July 17, 2009, 09:32:54 PM
Doug:

Rock Spring is a decent layout but it's more towards the rear of the line in terms of really first rate efforts by the man himself.

Montclair's #4 nine is really unique -- the bowl-shaped dog-leg left downhill par-5 1st is solid -- ditto the long par-4 2nd, the redan par-3 3rd and on and on it goes.



Matt-

  I would tend to listen to you.  But, have you seen it after the work?  There was a bunker on the left of 13 that looked out of place-it was darker sand, and had a different appearance-not a Banks look to it. 

Still, you have some unique holes there, such as the quarry/3rd (is this a quasi redan?)
11 reminds me a little of 3 at Lederach on the tee shot.  (Go left and have a clear shot, longer line in, go right and cross the hazard for a shorter shot in).
There appear to be a number of greens situated on the short right/long left diagonal (not redan greens per se, and probably not a road green per se, but also similar to the first green at Knoll West.  What and why is this? 

16 is a different kind of par 3-Kelly had some construction pictures on his website. 
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"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

mark chalfant

Re: The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2009, 11:39:23 AM »
Doug,

Thats a good description of Rock Spring.  Its a charmer with nice rolling terrain Lots of holes cross  or run paralllel to gullies. As you mentioned several fine holes with some bold green complexes. On a fairly small plot, Banks came up with a nice variety of both short and long par fours.  It was good before Kelly's work,  I am sure he made Rock Spring even better.   

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George_Bahto

Re: The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2009, 03:17:30 PM »
Rock Spring is a pretty good example of Banks work. Many very good holes and much interesting bunkering IN PLAY on the original concept plan that he presented.

Interesting there was never a Biarritz at Rock Spring.

A few years ago Rock Spring hired an architect who did not follow up on the Banks design and introduced a personal footprint that, in the end, was a maintenance nightmare. The club later decided to have Kelly come in and do his thing.

I saw it earlier but have not seen KBM’s work which I’m sure is more suited to a Banks course.   

About Montclair’s Redan: As I have often stated Banks deemed no to tilt back the Redan greens as did his mentors. It is an excellent par-3 non the less.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Doug Braunsdorf

Re: The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2009, 03:28:19 PM »
Mark and George,

Thank you for your inputs. 

George, a few follow ups to your post-
1.  Have you seen, though your research, Banks' original concept plan?
2.  Did Banks do this during the time before, after or during ECCC?  They are very close, geographically.  (As is Essex Fells, I think you said it was build by a club professional from Raynor plans).   Everyone speaks of how Raynor died during construction of ECCC and Banks fought to keep the job there. 
3.  Did you mean to refer to Rock Spring's 3rd hole in the last line of your post-I haven't seen Montclair except from the road-it's one of the courses in NJ I would really like to see and play, for the Ross and the Banks holes.  I do know their (Montclair's) redan green is benched into the hill somewhat.  Rock Spring's looked relatively flat, maybe tilted a little bit from left to right and back to front-following the basic topography of the hill. 
4.  Follow-up to #2; suppose Banks did get his contract to build ECCC cancelled originally--and this is pure speculation--did it ever cross your mind who would have been brought in to finish the job or build a new golf course? 

Thanks

DRB
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"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Matt_Ward

Re: The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2009, 06:50:30 PM »
Doug:

I attended the NJ Open and have said the layout certainly benefited from the care and attention that Kelly provided. As George B mentioned -- the work that was done previous to what Kelly did was not in the same spirit and needed to be altered to get back to its original spirit.

Rock Spring is a nice member's layout but places like Essex County and Montclair's 4th Nine along with Forsgate and Hackensack are clearly beyond what's there from a compelling architecture story standpoint in my mind.
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George_Bahto

Re: The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2009, 08:44:59 PM »
Doug, I think I’ll break this down into four different posts for a bit more clarity, if you don’t mind.

1. Have you seen, though your research, Banks' original concept plan?   

Doug I have a copy of the plan - it appeared in an article Banks wrote. I made a much larger version of the plan to the club - at the time a different GM wanted it. I haven’t spoken to the club about this piece after they changed GMs. They wanted a large framed copy for the clubhouse.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 08:48:16 PM by George_Bahto »
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

Re: The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2009, 08:46:18 PM »
2. Did Banks do this during the time before, after or during ECCC? They are very close, geographically. (As is Essex Fells, I think you said it was build by a club professional from Raynor plans). Everyone speaks of how Raynor died during construction of ECCC and Banks fought to keep the job there.

Both jobs were started about the same time, Doug, but I think Essex County may have been a little earlier - perhaps a few months to a year. Essex Fells was done a number of years later. They looked for Raynor but he had passed away by the time they finally made up their minds.

There is a natural tie-in to these two clubs - in a way. Rock Spring was founded by the then president of ECCC who was going to leave ECCC because there was too much drinking going on. So he purchased an old amusement park area on top of First Mountain and developed Rock Spring. He was a very influential man in the area but a tee-totaller.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

Re: The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2009, 08:46:56 PM »

3. Did you mean to refer to Rock Spring's 3rd hole in the last line of your post-I haven't seen Montclair except from the road-it's one of the courses in NJ I would really like to see and play, for the Ross and the Banks holes. I do know their (Montclair's) redan green is benched into the hill somewhat. Rock Spring's looked relatively flat, maybe tilted a little bit from left to right and back to front-following the basic topography of the hill.

I was referring to Montclair’s Redan but the Redan at Rock Spring has little tilt compared to their  norm.

Rock Spring’s Redan played over that deep hollow are is a pretty neat hole.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

Re: The Charlie Banks 9 at Montclair CC (NJ)
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2009, 08:47:47 PM »

4. Follow-up to #2; suppose Banks did get his contract to build ECCC cancelled originally--and this is pure speculation--did it ever cross your mind who would have been brought in to finish the job or build a new golf course?

I have no idea.

Raynor and Banks seemed to “ow” the area 1925 thru 1928-29 with Essex County, (earlier Morris County CC), Rock Spring, contacted by Essex Fells, The Knoll, Essex County Park Commission course, Not that far away Forsgate, Hackensack, Montclair 4th nine, Raynor at Roselle - 9 holer, Rumson down the shore in the early 20's also.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson
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