[Mike Ventola]

This Thursday night my golf course design course discusses the place that I am least comfortable with the London Heathland architects.  I have not yet visited this area but plan to next summer, truthfully, however I am a little intimidated by the blue blood nature of the area.  I have seen a lot of Willie Park Jr. and Colts work but find it hard to get excited about the works of Abercromby, Simpson, and Fowler.  In the interest saving time I may leave out Abercromby altogether this year.  If that would greatly offend you please make an argument to keep him in.  Also if there were anyone out there who has recently visited any Heathland courses and has pictures or ideas to share I would enjoy sharing them with my students.

[Paul Turner]

Visit The Addington, it's a must play and I doubt you'll have seen a course quite like it.

I'd like to check out Coombe Hill too.  From pics, it looks like a slightly less spectacular version of Addington.

[Jim Reilly]

Mike,

Check the archive for my post on a comparison between the Addington and Walton Heath.  The Addington, as Paul suggests, is a fabulous course.  On what many lesser architects would discount as a difficult piece of land, and thereby make excuses for a poor design and excess earth moving, old Aber crafted a rugged gem that makes great use of the ravines that bisect the course.  If you like variety and originality, you'll like the Addington.

Colts courses in Surrey are worth a trip alone.  The clubs do like their privacy, but if you can play mid-week and show some tact, I'm sure you will find them welcoming.

[RT]

Mike,

Ditto on Jim's advice about visiting these London heathland courses.  A nice intro letter (preferably brief), play them on the weekdays, and a good dose of humble pie tact goes a long way around here.

Get you a good street map of Surrey & Berkshire Counties too....you'd be forgiven getting lost trying to find a few of them.

[Mike Ventola]

Paul, Jim, and RT

What makes these courses so special?  How are they different from Pinehurst #2.  I have seen Gleneagles is that what they are like?

[Jim Reilly]

Mike,

You didn't look up my post on the Addington and Walton Heath in the archives, did you?

And another question, you teach a class on golf architecture and you don't even know what a heathland course looks like?  Saints alive man, I wish I had your cajones.  Are you going to bring in Jeremy Glenn as a guest speaker to inform the class why Pine Valley, Merion and other courses he hasn't see are overrated?

In short, the attributes of the heathland courses are:

1. They are built on heathland.  Firm sandy soil that drains beautifully, precipitates the ground game and takes full advantage of contours the course possesses.  

2. Many of the courses are built on the principals of the Golden Age and are more strategic than penal; but the best have a mixture of both holes.

3. The surrounding countryside is a pleasant place for a brisk walk.

4. The plethora of clubs in the area, and the small membership at most clubs, makes them absolutely deserted by American, or at least California, standards.

[Paul_Daley]

Jim:

Nice, accurate, concise, description of British heathland.

[Mike Ventola]

Jim

You got me on the past post I cannot find the thread using a search of your name, Addington or Walton Heath.  Dates would help?

About the design class, it is a small part of a much larger curriculum in Turfgrass Management.  I love studying and discussing architecture and find offence that you would ridicule me for trying to learn as much as possible about the subject by attempting to contact people who play these courses on a regular basis.  Truthfully when the College here offered me a trip to learn more I went to Scotland and made excellent academic and green keeper contacts that are willing to take me to England next time, if the government here ever solves its budget problems.  Small state community colleges don’t usually pay for trips anywhere so I consider myself the luckiest turfgrass instructor in the world to be in Pinehurst and have an administration that supports its staff so well.  I do have a masters and 15 years experience working in turfgrass research and education.  I have also read most of the available books on architecture and studied all of the pictures.  However apart from the writings of Simpson (whose Ideas I like more each time I review it) there is little information on Abercromby and Fowler’s work which I feel is important because it is some of the sandy earth to be moved in the name of golf.    

[Jim Reilly]

Mike,

The search engine for the archives on this site is like the 18th at High Pointe, it doesn't fit in with the excellence of the rest of it so I shouldn't have given you a hard time about that.

I think your efforts to learn more about architecture are admirable; that is the same reason I frequent the site.  I am a little surprised that you haven't at least seen pictures of heathland courses.  I mean hell, the Women's British Open was just held at Sunningdale (Old) and was televised.   For a good description of some of the better known heathland courses, you can start with Darwin's "Golf Courses of the British Isles."  From there, you can get Tom Doak's take on them from picking up the "Confidential Guide".  He has some pics in there, but any big bookstore (or maybe even a small one in Pinehurst) will have a coffee table book with Wentworth, Sunningdale and Walton Heath in it.  Take a look at Geoff Shackleford's "Golden Age of Golf Design", pages 21-24, for a peak at St. George's Hill and Sunningdale Old.  The holes are completely framed by pines now, but at least you can get a sense of what the holes looked like when they were first laid out.

To compare Heathland courses to Pinehurst No. 2 is pretty rough stuff.  No. 2 is one of my favorite courses in the world and, in my opinion, most courses will not fair too well against it; but the thing about Surrey isn't so much that it contains world beaters like No. 2, but it has incredible depth of quality.  Talk about a tough neighborhood.  

I come from Southern California where there are architects with very successful practices who don't play golf and by their own admission (in interviews I've read at least), they've said they don't even like golf.  Not surprisingly, they create some really good landscape architecture, but as interesting golf courses their creations fail miserably.  If I treated you unfairly, I apologize, but it struck me as odd that you are teaching a class, but haven't been able to get a sense of what a Heathland course looks like.

If your aim for your class is to give future supers and potential architects some understanding of the principals of design, I would recommend Doak's "Anatomy of a Golf Course" for the textbook.  After all, the concepts of strategic design are the same from course to course.  Heathland golf is different from parkland golf in its hazards and potential (firmness of the ground with being hardpan), but, again, without getting your student to understand the concept of a Redan hole, looking at pictures of Redans from around the world will likely not be as beneficial.

I have some decent photos of heathland courses, but unfortunately no scanner.  If you would like to discuss them more I would be happy to.  I can also dig out my former posts on some of the heathland courses I've played and email to you.  If you are interested email me at jreilly31@btinternet.com

[Paul Turner]

Mike

Here's one of the pictures that Jim was referring to (Sunningdale New 5th).  Unfortunately, many of the heathland courses have lost some of this wild look because of too many trees.  But they're still a distinct category and very different from a parkland course.

The image is a bit too large for the page but it's a fine picture:

[Mike Ventola]

Great Photo!!
Mind if I steal it for class?

A few less trees than now.  It reminds me of the Moore in old Sherlock Homes stories.

I have read all those books more than once.
Am currently using Brad's Book as the text but Shacklfords works also, I miss Cornish & Whitten.
I feel that reading and pictures don't give a full understanding.  I need to walk and put some soil in my hand to fully understand a layout.  

[RT]

Mike,

That's exactly the one of the main tickets for understanding true heathland courses, the soils and the underlying layers.  It's pure pay"dirt" gold.

RT

[Paul Turner]

Mike

Of course you can use it, just right click and save.

I've just developed some pics of The Addington, Walton Heath, Woking and West Sussex.  I will scan and send some of the best if you like.

[Mike Ventola]

Paul
I will give you a picture credit.
If you want to send more
ventolam@email.sandhills.cc.nc.us
is my e-mail address

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