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Ran Morrissett

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The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« on: September 08, 2001, 05:12:00 AM »
While rummaging around for some info on the legendary golf course architect George Thomas, Geoff Shackelford once struck up a conversation with a member at Bel Air.

After briefly explaining what a genius Thomas was and why it was important to understand his work/ideas, Geoff was surprised when the member responded, "Yes, I played golf with him just the other week - a fine man indeed."

!!

Thus, Geoff was only slightly caught off guard when he recently bumped into The Captain at a rose show (I think Geoff was more surprised that HE was at the rose show). Nonetheless, Geoff seized the opportunity and conducted the following Q&A.

Even better - Thomas is now internet savvy as he tracks roses over the internet and he will be periodically responding to questions.

Hope you enjoy this exclusive GolfClubAtlas.com Feature Interview!

Cheers,


ForkaB

The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2001, 06:34:00 AM »
Geoff

You forgot to ask him about life on the other side


Ran Morrissett

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The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2001, 05:58:00 PM »
Mr. Thomas,

What was your best site that you worked on?

MacKenzie had his Cypress Point but also his Royal Melbourne West, Crystal Downs, Augusta National and even Pasatiempo. Did you ever work with a piece of property as good as any of those?

I've seen your big three LA courses and while LA North has some beautiful topo, weren't you handcuffed by a prior routing?

Cheers,


aclayman

The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2001, 06:16:00 PM »
Just an another amazing aspect of GCA.com.
GREAT!
Wtg

Boys girls moms and dads


Geoff_Shackelford

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The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2001, 07:27:00 PM »
I relayed your questions to GCT Jr., this is what he passed along.  

Rich, he suggested watching Albert Brooks' "Defending Your Life" for the best overview of the afterlife.

Ran, the Captain said that no, he never did have a site quite like those you listed, though Ojai was very, very special in terms of natural features. La Cumbre and LACC-North were both basically redesigns, so the land was a bit tainted by the previous, and somewhat primitive design ideas. Still though, both were/are excellent sites for golf though he says neither course has much idea how to best take advantage of their best features, for which he is quite sad.
Geoff


Joel_Stewart

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The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2001, 07:35:00 PM »
Fantastic interview.  

Geoff, I wrote you an email several months ago and asked if you had ever interviewed Mr. Thomas but you never answered.. Since you wrote a book on his work, why wasn't he interviewed then?

How old is Thomas, his answers are quite articulate and sharp?


Tommy_Naccarato

The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2001, 08:04:00 AM »
Joel,
I'm sure Geoff will be more then glad to answer your questions when he next sees George on his 128th birthday on October 3.

Geoff, Belly Bell, Scotty Chisolm, Max Behr, Willie Hunter, John Duncan Dunn, Chili Palmer, Sam Heebner, Jack Neville, Aaron Neville, Hugh Wilson, Dick Wilson, Flip Wilson, H. Chandler Egan, Zane Grey, and myself will be taking him to the newest El Cholo in Pasadena. It should be a pretty exciting evening.

We were trying to decide what to give him for his 128th. What do you give a man that's turning 128 and has features that are turning a lighter shade of pale?

It's either going to be a lap top so he can particpate on GCA or a honorary membership to become Golf Digest Panelist #128,000.



ForkaB

The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2001, 09:48:00 PM »
Geoff

Please thank the Captain when you next see him for the Albert Brooks tip.  Also, could you ask him what his role was at Stanford Golf Course?  Their site gives him equal credit with Billy Bell, as follows:

"Thomas designed the course and Bell managed the construction. Bell traveled back and forth to Beverly Hills updating Thomas on his progress and getting further instructions. Thomas was ill and died a couple of years later, having never seen the results of his effort."

Tommy N--I'll crash the party as that is my birthday, too.  If I were as pale as the Captain probably is by now, wouldn't a lap dance rather than a lap top be the ticket to get the circulation going again?   But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong......


Geoff_Shackelford

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The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2001, 04:47:00 PM »
Joel,
I had hoped that my silence might have been subtle enough to entice you to open up your copy of The Captain or Ron Whitten's The Architects of Golf, as you will find in either source that Captain Thomas passed away in 1932. The GCA interview Ran posted is about 50% of yours truly speaking for GCT Jr., with the other 50% taken from Thomas's book or magazine articles that I have found since The Captain was published. Glad you enjoyed the interview and found the answers articulate, Captain Thomas deserves all the credit.  

Rich,
The Stanford design appears to have gone just as you described. Thomas was too ill to travel from 1928 to well into 1930, and never saw the site nor left Southern California during that time. The Bell-Thomas setup you quoted was mentioned in a few different articles from the period, all uncovered by Gordon Ratliff the Stanford club historian. I do think Thomas had some influence on the design, because the Stanford original did have a few features that Bell often stayed away from in his own work (option fairways, well placed cross bunkers, etc...).
Geoff


Ran Morrissett

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The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2001, 06:19:00 PM »
Joel's post is why we did the Feature Interview - jack is known about The Captain, despite Geoff's detailed efforts.


Geoff,

It seems to me that an architect is deemed great because he builds great golf holes. (Hey, call me smart  ) How many architects' eclectic best 18 holes would beat Thomas's 18 best?

In thinking about it, I say that Ross, Colt, and Tillinghast fall short. Raynor's best aren't as strategically varied or original as Thomas's and Macdonald didn't do enough solo courses.

Thomas's eclectic best would have the same strategic merit as Crump's Pine Valley but would be enjoyable for a greater range of player. For instance, his 10th at Riviera is playable by a 10 year old and a 70 year old.

Stanley Thompson's best has the advantage of coming from at least 5 superb sites and he might be in the running.

In addition, there is The Good Doctor. How would Thomas's best stack up against MacKenzie's (and I appreciate based on your answer above that the Scot had a jump start based on the better properties)?

Stilll, you know all the holes that Thomas did , many of which are RIP. Do you think Thomas might be at the very top?

Cheers,


Geoff_Shackelford

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The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2001, 08:00:00 AM »
Ran,
I pulled out my GCT Dream 18 list from The Captain and played a few matchs against Doak's best 18 of the greats. Of course, I moved the Thomas holes where I wanted, Tom stuck with their numeric placement on their home course. Still, I'd put Thomas's best 18 up against any architect, no question, and that's with a pretty limited group of holes to pick from. In fact, I couldn't believe how good the honorable mention Thomas were, I must have been nuts not to include a couple in the best 18.

Not to take away from the other architects you mentioned, because they were all brilliant, but Thomas's standout holes had/have a plenty of options, drama, beauty, subtle character and memorability. They are/were "original" because they fed off of natural features so well, and most of all, look fun to every golfer the first time they see them, or the 100th time.

It seems there are people with a certain creative touch who can produce something different and fresh and timeless, while also creating something that is impressive to a large audience. The Mozarts, Monets, and Orson Wells's of the world I suppose, and I believe that Thomas, MacKenzie and Tillinghast were definitely their equivalents in golf course design.
Geoff


Joel_Stewart

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The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2001, 08:24:00 AM »
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity!

FYI: Born 1873, Died 1932

When am I going to learn, "thought control, like birth control is best undertaken as long as possible before the fact".


Tommy_Naccarato

The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2001, 09:59:00 PM »
Joel, At least you are a good sport about it.

But.........I think this is more then enough reason to get off your duff and read The Captain and Golf Architecture in America! Your abilites as a panelist will only improve as a result.

Never the less, I still want to have a 128th Birthday party at El Cholo for the Captain. He certainly deserves it.


Paul Turner

The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2001, 07:00:00 AM »
Ran/Geoff

Will you share your choices for The Captain's eclectic 18s?  I've never played any of his, but I've got the books so I can take a look.


Dan King

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The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2001, 10:49:00 AM »
Hey I want to be there for the Thomas birthday bash.  Maybe I can talk Hoyt Axton into coming back from his other-side retirement and make an appearance.  Hoyt loves good Mexican food.

Dan King
dking@danking.org

quote:
Daniel Miller (Albert Brooks): Is this Heaven?
Bob Diamond (Rip Torn): No, it isn't Heaven.
Daniel Miller: Is it Hell?
Bob Diamond: Nope, it isn't Hell either. Actually, there is no Hell. Although I hear Los Angeles is getting pretty close.

Geoff_Shackelford

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The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2001, 07:01:00 PM »
Joel,
I disagreed with your opinion regarding the new Riviera tees for architectural reasons (they are devoid of character and lack care in their placement and purpose). But a bit more obvious than the architectural debacle taking place at Riviera, was your proclamation that this work was "what Thomas would do." Initially, I found that a bit presumptuous, which is why I asked made you feel that way or why you thought that was a reasonable conclusion to make about Thomas and the work being undertaken. Personally, the more bad restoration and interpretation work I see, the less comfortable I become with proclaiming such things, though I'd like to think I could make an educated guess as to what Thomas was trying to do both in the original design along with the motivations for his modifications prior to the 29 LA Open (that info comes thanks mostly to a 1928 article he wrote detailing changes he was thinking of making, some of which were made, others which were not carried out).

Naturally Joel, when I realized that you had not read the various books that might lend a bit more insight into the man and his body of work, followed by your question of whether he was living or not, well, I had to wonder how one could make such a declaration about the work, regardless of how it looks. Furthermore, I wondered if you had considered that just maybe if Thomas was indeed with the living, and not playing golf up at The Big 18 in the Sky G.C., that Riviera would consult Captain Thomas instead of the friendly but odd cast of opinions better known as Fazio/Marzolf/Macdonald/Latshaw/Moraghan/Meeks? (The answer is of course no, Mr. Watanabe and his think tank would listen to the USGA's thoughts over Thomas, even if The Captain showed up on the doorstep tomorrow and offered solutions. They want that U.$. Open.   )

Naturally, I'm biased, but I think there is a great deal to learn from the various books on Thomas and Riviera, which might help you understand why I find the construction work taking place to be schlocky, clumsy and offensive when compared to the rest of the course. And why I think that simply stretching a tee back as far as possible on any hole where there is room, is not exactly showing much understanding of the design concepts that Captain Thomas and Billy Bell so lovingly conceived and so artfully created.
Geoff


Ran Morrissett

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The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2001, 10:54:00 AM »
Given my lack of knowledge of Fox Hill, Ojai, etc, my attempt at Thomas's eclectic best is feeble but goes as follows:

1. Riviera - inpiring 1st tee
2. LA North - killer use of creek
3. Ojai - ravine on left
4. Riviera - Hogan's favorite
5. Riveria - an underestimated hole, in my opinion
6. Riviera - an original all the way
7. Riviera - the pre-flood hole was a strategic gem
8. Riviera - a rare example of a split fairway that works
9. Riviera

10. Riviera - one of golf's greatest holes
11. LA North - superb reverse redan
12. Bel-Air - Mae West's best
13. Riviera - must have been amazing before the storms/floods
14. Bel-Air great three shotter with tough fallaway green
15. Riviera - amazing green
16. La Cumbre - ravine on right
17. Bel-Air - another alternate route hole
18. either Bel-Air or Riviera (I personally prefer last holes to be shorter than Riviera's)

Thomas wouldn't like the course above as it is too long. I should substitute in 17 at LACC for 17 at Bel-Air to introduce another short pitch shot but I can't leave out Bel-Air's (once upon a time) magical hole.

Thomas's 2nd course would be just as good with such holes as 2 at Bel-Air, 3 LaCumbre, 6 at LACC, 8 at LACC, 10 at Bel-Air, 11 at Bel-Air, 13 at Bel-Air, 17 at LACC, etc.


Geoff_Shackelford

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The September Feature Interview with The Captain is posted
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2001, 03:42:00 PM »
Ran,
Great list, I agree, Thomas would probably wonder if you had a fetish for difficulty. My "Dream 18" in The Captain was a par-69, 6132 yarder.

Hole's I'd substitute on your list to give it a bit less of an edge might be the original alternate route second at Bel-Air instead of the second at LACC, the drive and pitch ninth at Bel-Air over Riviera's ninth, and maybe the fourteenth at LACC North over Bel-Air's. Why Harbottle added a fairway bunker there during the "restoration" I'll never quite understand. The hole did not need it.

In the interview we cited some of Thomas's favorites, which came from a May 1930 interview in The Country Club Magazine with his pal and golf admirer, Scotty Chisholm (the Scot who announces players at 18 in "Follow the Sun"). Though Thomas was reluctant to pat himself on the back, he had some interesting points. Here are a few excerpts about the par-3s from the piece by Scotty Chisholm:

"I wondered what he [Captain Thomas] considered his best par 3 hole, his best par 4 and his best par 5, so without any hesitation I fired at him, 'What in your own candid opinion, is the finest one-shot hole you ever built in California. What particular short hole has worked to your liking?'

"It so happened I had four Thomas par 3 holes in mind when I stated that I thought the 3rd at the Ojai Country Club was as fine a natural layout as any I could think of and that the 3rd at La Cumbre, Santa Barbara, the 4th at Riviera near Santa Monica and the 11th at the North Course at the Los Angeles Country Club were all excellent holes.

"Thomas answered me in the wise: 'They are entirely different. The Ojai hole is absolutely a natural one. Even the green was left untouched - I mean the formation of it. All that was done to it was to place a bunker or two short of the green to pinch it in a bit. I think it is a rarely fine speciman of nature at her best and only a perfectly directed tee shot can make the green - and hold it. It is seldom that a golf architect happens across such a grand piece of terrain and the moement I set eyes on it I concluded it would be left just as I had found it.

"Continuing he said, 'The 4th at Riviera is an entirely different proposition. Everything about it is artificial for the reason that the entire contour had to be changed, much soil was brought in and a great deal of grading done to mould the green to its finished levels. It is a longer and sterner test than the 3rd at Ojai and was designed for an entirely different type of shot from the tee. When the pin is placed at the right hand side of the putting surface the correct way to play is with a slightly hooked shot onto a sloping hill at the right. Of course when the pin is to the left the best route is directly for the green over the series of hungry looking traps that guard it.

"'The other short holes you mentioned, the 3rd at La Cumbre and the 11th at Los Angeles Country Club, were also different problems because the former is strickly a natural one while the latter was entirely made by man. The La Cumbre hole is perhaps the finest I have ever made in California because it possesses all the virtues which a short hole ought to have, viz: great natural beauty, a fine carry, boldness, exacting direction and the priceless contour of land near the green which nurses a perfectly executed drive to where due reward awaits the fearless player. It also had the advantage of several tees and may be played as a short two shotter resembling when so used the famous Cape hole."

This brings up a point that I've noticed about Thomas's three greatest long par-3's: They all would make sensational short par-4's if stretched just a few yards, which Thomas obviously had in mind with 11 at LACC and 3 at La Cumbre, as he stated in both cases. As short-4's The bunker placement and options would be fascinating and fun for all.

Perhaps instead of looking to the great short par-4's for inspiration, architects should look at some of the better long par-3's!
Geoff


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