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Chris_Hervochon

What I would like to see...
« on: September 14, 2001, 06:39:00 PM »
I am a young golfer, and a pretty good golfer at that.  Every since I began playing golf some 5 years ago, golf course architecture and strategy has intrigued me.  I have read most of the books written by the great classical architects as well as some of the more modern ones, and I have grown fond of what they had to say.  

The more and more I watch professional golf as well as play on a national level, the more I realize how much different this game is for the pros.  What pro's find easy, most amateur golfers find difficult (bunkers, fast greens, etc.).  Moreover, the pros play on perfectly groomed courses.  I have said it a million times and I will say it again: the greens are so good for tournament conditions that all you have to do is pick a line and hit it.  Rarely will a putt be missed because the ball spends half the duration of its journey in the air or because the greens were so slow the ball would not get to the hole(I apologize for my ranting but it is something I feel strongly about).

Therefore, I think there are ways courses can be made more interesting while still being fair.  Here are some of the design features I would like to see incorporated into some of todays newer courses:

#1- Sod-walled pot bunkers!  Granted they are almost impossible for the higher handicaps, but then again, have you ever seen a trap shot that was easy for a 20+ handicap?  Back in the day traps were hazards, and they should go back to being hazards.  A perfectly groomed bunker is not a hazard, quite frankly, trap shot from a good lie is a helluva lot easier than a blast shot from 4" rough.  A pot bunker, on the other hand, is a hazard; and I think it would work especially well in some instances guarding the fairway as to make it just a little difficult for the golfer to get it near his target on his next shot.  Seriously, you can't say you wouldn't like to see a tour pro out of a trap backwards more than once a year (I.E. the British Open).  The bunkers are all like this in Britain, and I think they should be like that in America as well.

#2-  Greens that fall away from the line of play.  At least the bump and run shot would be a necessity for everybody's arsenal once again.  Maybe this would put some creativity back into a game where the need for skill is severely lacking.

#3-  Greens that are narrow and angled diagonally toward one side of the fairway or the other.  At least placement would be more of a requirement to get close to today's pin placements.

#4-  Greens with hillocks, dips, knobs, etc.  Greens that slope back to front are just plain boring, and everybody that can at least chew their own food can read these sorts of greens.

#5-  Firm and fast conditions.  Remember that whole bump and run thing?

#6-  Stop trying to make every hole a 500yd par 4.  If made sufficiently difficult, a 300yd par 4 is more interesting and sometimes even just as difficult, a la Donald Ross & Alister Mackenzie.  Kudos to Weiskopf & Morrish for building 'em, and good ones at that.

#7-  Does anybody know what happened to the short par 3?  I think it went the way of the short par 4.  Gone on most tracks. Variety is severely lacking on today's newer courses.

Again, just some of my thoughts.  Sorry for rambling.  Please respond and tell me what you think.


ForkaB

What I would like to see...
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2001, 06:57:00 PM »
Chris

I give your maiden post a 10 on the Doak scale, whether that scale be logarithmic (natural or base 10), quantum or just a little but of fun.

Everything you say is true.  Keep on postin'

Rich


Patrick_Mucci

What I would like to see...
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2001, 06:59:00 PM »
Chris,

You've found a home, welcome aboard.


aclayman

What I would like to see...
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2001, 09:35:00 PM »
Chris-  What experiences  have you had with great courses, and/or more correctly, where have you played that have some of the features you mention?
After reading your list I was reminded of a few spots that you may want to check-out: For grasswalls look at Skokie CC in Glencoe, Il. and Lawsonia in Greenlake, Wisc. And, Pot bunkers are wonderful surprises at Pete Dye's Blackwolf Run.
Did you know that the first four/five greens at Spyglass Hill actually slope away from the player, and then there is Wolf Run in Reno,nv. which has wonderful strategic options with diversity and great greens.
Your number 3 is the fourth hole at Spy to a tee and the Ninth at Cypress Point Club.
Your # 4 is bit contorversial cause all that came to mind was Johnny Miller's EagleRidge in Gilroy, Ca. The greens are said to have been built with the attitude that if Johnny couldn't putt, on tour, noone will be able to, here. They are as you described hillocky bumps and humps, making the sections very small. (and hard)

As far as short fours goes #2 at Spy   and I can't remember exactly where but, believe it or not, I think Either P.B or Perry built a hole called "Hells half acre" probably in vegas, which would explain my difficulty remembering.

Have fun.

adam


Paul_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
What I would like to see...
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2001, 10:04:00 PM »
Chris: Good job!

You made some very astute calls.

I wholeheartedly agree with your concern about the demise of the tiny par 3.

Pleasingly, one new course in Victoria, Australia, 13th Beach, will have a 100 metre example when opening in December. The green is perched on high ground, where the prevailing wind is right-to-left. Misery awaits on both sides should you miss the target; and so it should with only a mere flick required. Its architect, Tony Cashmore, has unearhed a corker right here.


jim_lewis

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What I would like to see...
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2001, 03:26:00 AM »
Chris:

You mentioned that you are young but did not say how young. If you have not chosen a career yet, please consider becoming a golf course architect. I like the way you think.

"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Ran Morrissett

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What I would like to see...
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2001, 05:57:00 AM »
Chris, All excellent points and  what are you going to do to help see them come about?

Patrick_Mucci

What I would like to see...
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2001, 07:41:00 AM »
Chris,

Could you post your EMail address.


Tommy_Naccarato

What I would like to see...
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2001, 11:18:00 AM »
Chris, Some very astute observations.

I think the best answer why is that many (And I'm not saying which ones) modern day architects are in fact listening to the modern protoypical golfer who wants total fairness when concerning their own individual golf game.

I like to think of it as The Death of Challenge and unfortunately it has been the one of the biggest factor's to lackluster design, next to utilizing the worst land imaginable for golf.

Today, golfers want to see the entire golf hole as much as possible, this including doglegged-style holes. They like their teeing grounds elevated, with a view and if possible of the entire surrounding environment, whether it be a old, but dramatic-looking abandon rock quarry, The Pacific Ocean, or a simple but elegant view of downtown Podunk.

Many golfers of today also want fairness in their penalties, suggesting fair bunkers that are playable for every handicap and can exploit the worst play as still a viable chance at acheiving par.

Fairway sand hazards don't even have to come into play! They are nothing more then a reminder to the golfer that he is on a golf course and not in a public park and serve an even better purpose of being a perfect road map to the golf hole.

There is a term in most golf rule books called Rub Of The Green and unfortunately, that ideaology is being eliminated from the game more and more each day.

Rub Of The Green is where a golfer has to accept the fact that either natural forces and elements or unforseen mishap created a ball in play to react unfavorably to the person who put it in play. When viewed by the protypical golfer of today, golf courses today are considered not very good when a golfer is challenged with shots that are less then desirable but somewhat interesting. This includes shots that found unfavorable places in sand hazards (The prototypical old style famed Merion White Face) or barrier walls where there is no chance of taking a full back swing. (The Road Hole at the Old Course of St. Andrews)

Simply put, many modern golf course architects are having to remove any chance of fate from design that might not only be intriguing, but challenging, all in the name of PLAYABILITY. This is what makes a golf architect a succesful and great designer by some peoples standards.

Another factor is that many modern golf architects want to earn themselves a respectable living. They will go out of their way to make their education as non-golf related Landscape Architects work to their advantage by dressing up their golf courses to look like the Garden of Babylon. This means the use of flowers, trees, and less then disarable water features that have no business what so ever being on a site that was once a barren desert or limestone quarry.

You have hilighted and really seems to be the mood of this day, is that the protypical golfer wants perfect conditions even after an El Nino or Hurricane Hugo. This is how they judge a great golf course--by how green and lush it is. A lot of this is to blame on an industry that thinks that "$75.00 green fees are a great deal, so will make ours $125.00!" after all, the award winning designer of the course just charged them $1.5 million to design the course, and that doesn't even include the cost to build it.

Jim Lewis is right. If you are of an age where you are trying to nail yourself down into a career, your attitude or view as of how golf courses should play is perfect for some of us, and you should become a golf course architect.

Do it for all of the reasons you have listed. Don't do it for the fame, fortune and awards that are supposedly bestowed upon the designers who have more or less forgotten everything the old game ever taught them.


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
What I would like to see...
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2001, 11:47:00 AM »
Chris, welcome to a site where you can learn a great deal about your burgeoning interest in GCA from the on-going discussion.  We have had other youngsters with great interest and keen observations come in and out over the last few years.  I hope you will participate as often as your undoubtedly hectic schedule of school things, social things, and of course golf things allows the time.  

Here is a link that I wonder if you would check out and comment on since you are in this arena of junior golf play...
http://www.captimes.com/opinion/column/moe/5131.php

It is from a community-lifestyle column written by a very well respected local writer in my hometown about his observations of trends at a junior national tournament.


No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

George Pazin

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What I would like to see...
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2001, 02:23:00 PM »
You sure don't sound like a young golfer - good points, one & all.

I once speculated that if more people learned lessons from the Mercedes Championship at Kapalua, generating a Kapalua Syndrome, we would hav many of the conditions you desire. Sadly, this doesn't seem to be what sells, whether it's TV advertising, homes or greens fees.

There are archies who build courses like this. Gil Hanse's Applebrook features a short par 3 that is awesome - hitting from tee to green, it's almost all carry(to the best of my recollection) to a green perched on a little hilltop only about 120 yards away. From the tee, the green looks to be about 10 feet deep, though when you get there, it's actually a pretty good size. Nice job, Gil, Rodney & crew!

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Chris_Hervochon

What I would like to see...
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2001, 02:43:00 PM »
I am glad most of you liked my post.  Some of you asked questions, so I figured I would take the time now to answer them one by one.

aclayman- My experiences with great golf courses are severely limited, if not all but non-existent.  The Ocean Course and Harbour Town are the only two "top 100" golf courses I have ever played, however, I will be attending the Crump Cup at Pine Valley in two weeks or so, and will be playing Merion in a couple weeks.  Needless to say I will soak it all in.  

Oddly enough, my two favorite golf courses are 1- The Ocean Course, and 2- Harbour Town.  I was extrememly impressed with the rebuild of Harbour Town, which I must say, has some of the smallest greens I have ever encountered.  I played my best golf and made a bunch of putts and the course still kicked me in the rear.  I love the Ocean Course just for the fact that we practically played the ladies tees and it still mentioned to keep my attention for 5 hours.  I can honestly say, that it was the only time in my life where I had walked off a golf course mentally exhausted and with my imagination totally spent.

Some of the golf courses in my area (South Jersey) have some of the features I discussed, and some were just ideas that I love.  For example, Sand Barrens has an 8 1/2ft. deep pot bunker guarding the green on a short par 5 that I absolutely love.  Whenever I am there, even though I have never hit my ball in there, I drop 6 or so balls and hit them out.  I try and see how close I can get to the wall and still get it out.  It really is great fun.  My local muny has a short par 3 of about 100 yds, uphill, blind green with deep bunkers all around.  Also fun to play.  Short par 4's, a lot of courses have them around here.  Some good, some really crappy.

You also mentioned a lot of courses with some of these design features.  Sadly to say, I have never seen any of them.  I will be sure to look for as much info as I can though.  Thanks for your post!

Jim Lewis- I am just 17 years old.  Thanks a lot for your more than gracious remarks!

Ron Morrisett-  Good question.  I will have to think about that one and get back to you.  But right now I think that I would like to take up golf architecture/own a golf course when I am around middle-aged or so.  I guess we'll see how things go.

Patrick Mucci- My email address is herv00@aol.com.  Feel free to email me whenever you want.

Tommy Nacaroto-  Unfortunatly, you are most correct.  However, what you described is not a golfer, what you described is somebody who thinks they like golf, but really all they like is parks passed off as golf courses.  See also drunken golfers with cell phones and cigars who ride in golf carts (commonly seen at my home club).  However, that's not to say that is typical, just what I see at my local club, because I almost never see these type of people anywhere else.  A real golfer is someone who takes what he/she is given and deals with it, as they realize everybody else has to deal with it as well.  I say, these people just need to get over it and take up billiards.

RJ Daley- Thanks for the link.  I found this man's column extremely interesting.  I have never had the pleasure of playing with some of the people this man described, but I know for sure they exist.  Just like the father's giving swing tips on the practice tee 5 minutes before their son is to tee off in a tournament, hounding them after every shot.  It honestly makes me sick and makes me grateful for my father, who does his thing and stays out of my way.  He never gets mad at me, and he never tells me what to do on the golf course.  I love him for that and realize just how truly lucky I am.  But he's right, these idiots do exist, and it makes me wonder just how their son's and daughters will ever learn to deal with real life on their own.


Tommy_Naccarato

What I would like to see...
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2001, 05:38:00 PM »
Chris,
Are you a son I never knew I had?

Mike_Cirba

What I would like to see...
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2001, 09:45:00 PM »
Chris,

You have obviously learned more about golf architecture in 17 years than I had at 35.  Hopefully, I've caught up in the past couple of years.  

What's your muni in SJ?  I've played most of them and I'm curious what hole you are talking about.  

I'm from near Philly and I'd both like to welcome you to GCA as well as encourage you to post here often.  Stop by and let us know what you think about Merion East.


Chris_Hervochon

What I would like to see...
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2001, 12:15:00 PM »
Mike,
The muni I grew up playing is Pitman GC.  The specific hole I was talking about is #14, the 100yd (roughly) par 3 over the small pond.  I find this whole quite charming, and difficult, for many reasons.  Let me know what you think.

Mike_Cirba

What I would like to see...
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2001, 05:29:00 PM »
Chris,

You probably won't believe this but that's the hole I had in mind when you posted.  For everyone else, Pitman is another little Alex Findlay gem that unfortunately had a couple of new modern holes added recently by an architectural group who is predominant in the mid-Atlantic.  

Yes, the hole you mentioned is really cool, Chris.  I also fondly recall an excellent driveable par four on the front nine that swings to the left and uphill on a ridge, and the approach to the fortress 18th green needs to be so precise.  


Chris_Hervochon

What I would like to see...
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2001, 06:23:00 PM »
Mike,

Yeah, that was the par 3 I was thinking of.  I especially like the green with the hump/ridge in the middle of that green that makes it sort of domed.  You can't miss anywhere on that hole; believe me, because I have been everywhere imaginable.

That little par 4 you are thinking about is the 5th hole.  It's so short, like 260 yds. yet so so difficult.  You have to place your tee shot left, as to open up the green for the second shot.  However, trees guard the left, and even further left you are basically in Never Never land.  Anything in the right half of the green has to fly over a little mound guarding the right side of the green; after that is a green that runs away, a shallow angle of approach, and a bunker beyond the green that is a nightmare.  When I was just starting I never realized the beauty of that hole until recently.  Why can't they build more like this?  It's sad to say that there have been plans to make it a short par 3 by moving the tee across the ravine and making the 4th hole a par 4.

You're right about the 18th though, the approach shot is quite difficult.

As I am quite young and really don't know much about the history of the club pre-1997, could you please tell me what you mean by them having added a couple modern holes?  I have only played the course in it's present state, so I am not quite sure what you are talking about.  Also, who is Alex Findlay and could you tell me a little about him please?
-Chris
P.S.- How do you like the 11th hole there?


JBergan

What I would like to see...
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2001, 06:45:00 PM »
The 7th hole is new.  The hole had to be moved when Rt 55 was built.  I never played the original 7th, but you can still see where the green used to be, left of the 8th tee.  I don't like the proximity of the seventh tee to the sixth green.  It's a little too close for comfort sometimes.

I've played the course a bunch of times and still haven't figured out how to play 11 well!  

I'd be interested in knowing which of the holes are original and which have been redesigned.  I did hear about the possible redesign of four and five, and I really think they should be left alone.  Four is a good, tough par three (I've hit from 5 iron to 3 wood depending on pin position and wind)and five is the kind of short par four that really gives you a lot of options.  A safe tee shot out to the right will leave you with a tricky second shot to a green that runs away from you, or be bold off the tee and go down the left, leaving a very short pitch to an open green.


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