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Gib_Papazian

What do we "use" this for?
« on: August 24, 2001, 11:26:00 AM »

    The problem with staring catatonic at the island of Molokai for a long period of time tends to get the mind wandering. So before you read on, understand that I have no idea what the point of this post is except that it began as an “In My Opinion” piece for Rand and John and ended up a sort of opinionless meandering.

    While playing with the local gamblers on the Bay Course at Kapalua, the conversation turned to the effect of the internet on golf. The rest of the foursome were naturally more interested in using it for tee times and course information - not surprising because most golfers are focused more on the practical and less concerned with the theoretical.
   
    I mentioned this site, and got blank stares all around. One of the guys wanted to know the “purpose” of it. In other words, “what do you USE if for?”
   
    What do we “use” it for? Hmmmmm . . . .  a rather innocuous question on the surface, but a far more complex one the deeper you delve. Most of us spend an inordinate amount of time - even feeling compelled to “check in” on vacation to see what is going on.
   
    There is a strangely disorienting feeling after being away for a few days, like coming into a fascinating conversation midway through and needing time to reenter the flow.
   
   Perhaps I should have explained it to the rest of the foursome that GCA is a sort of running dialogue with (hopefully) no end.
   
     So perhaps I’m just grappling with what this website really is. I suppose it can be reduced to an exchange of sorts where like-minded afficionados can meet. A sort of international bulletin board where a tiny percentage of the golfing populace can find solace in conversation with each other?
   
    I wonder sometimes if GCA hasn’t evolved into a support group for lost souls who have quaffed from the cup of golf beyond all reason and reality. A sounding board that actually “talks” back.
   
    Speaking for myself, if an idea or concept or question or observation pops into my skull, there are woefully few places to express it. After a while, the choice becomes boring your regular group to tears with all this pedantic analysis or developing a screaming “architectural retention headache.”

    I wonder if most of us just simply need a place to flush out an accumulation of thoughts from the septic tanks of our minds. Sometimes it feels downright cathartic to clean out the “odd’s and end’s drawer.” It is so difficult to move forward until you wrestle some of these disjointed concepts to the ground and pin them.

    The ability to just blast away to fellow golfers patient enough to wade through all of these threads is immeasurably useful to me in my writings to readers in the “real world.” Baring extraordinary  individual genius, analysis in a vacuum is the equivalent of placing a lone monkey in a closet hoping that he’ll eventually stumble on a comprehensive understanding of the “Road Hole.”

    A few threads back, my friend Bob Huntley stated that we owe a debt of gratitude to Ran and John. I suppose the less architecturally observant owe a debt themselves. I’m no longer tempted to try and discuss some of this stuff with golfers who care only about green fees, their score and how true the greens roll.

    Speaking of Bob - and the entire NorCal gang, we had an extraordinary experience a couple of weeks ago in Pebble Beach. If there is a “point” to this website, perhaps it became apparent that day in the Tap Room after a round at Pacific Grove.

    At the time, I personally had a feeling that something memorable and important was going on, but still have difficulty grasping what it was.

    Here we were, a group of golfers from all walks of life, enjoying each other’s company after playing a wonderful $32 golf course in a matchless setting. As I looked around the table, it occurred to me how fortunate we were. It is difficult to envision what set of circumstances independent of GCA could have brought such a diverse group together.

    Most regular foursomes, clubs or whatever, are composed of like-minded people. Ethnically, socioeconomically or professionally, it’s a rare table that seats together a group that includes an Adam Clayman, Tom Huckaby, Dan King, Bob Huntley and even a lost Armenian. I regret that Goodale wasn’t there, especially because we will miss him terribly when he returns to Scotland, but that is a subject for another day.

    What does this mean? I have no idea. But in my mind’s eye, it will always be like a sepia photograph on the wall of the Tap Room, astride Watson’s chip and Jack’s 1-iron. Those were important moments in golf history, but - to me at least - no more important than hearing Bob Huntley pass down an oral history of the game with stories of his adventures with Henry Longhurst.

    Whether it was intended or not, maybe GCA isn’t really specifically about architecture. Perhaps it is far more important than that, because it brings people together  across generations.

Around the world.      
     
           


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2001, 01:22:00 PM »
Gib,
I use this site to primarily to hear interesting points and ideas on golf architecture, to learn about different golf courses, and to compare ideas on courses I have seen myself.  

I do feel (and I said this in another post today) that more people posting need to play more and post less.  When someone posts that most of the top 100 courses are overrated (and they have played six them) or that Fazio can't build a decent course and they've played one of his designs, I just shake my head.  But if you look hard enough, there is some good stuff here written by some pretty knowledgable and well traveled people.  That is what holds my interest.
Mark


aclayman

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2001, 02:55:00 PM »
Some great ramblings there.

I wanted to share with the universe my impressions from that evening at the Tap Room but didn't find the appropriate thread till now.

There was all of the etheral histrionics that Gib has described above and then some, but what he didn't tell you was what he looked like in that picture.

I will never forget the arm swinging passion Gib exuded when describing my home course. Using words like sensuality and others. It was like a sexual arousal, he was under the influence of the "lure of the dunes" and the feelings of passion that burn deep in him, bubbled to the surface. He even made everyone agree that that feeling was not available a few hundred yards on the newly crowned #1. I was only slighly worried for a few moments, because I understood perfectly everything he was talking about.

Memorable also, was sitting next to Dan King, in his toned down hawaiian shirt (eloquently described by Bob Huntley) and across from that leprechaun looking leprechaun, Tom Huckaby. With ear to ear grins on all our faces I was reminded of being in kindergarten, but after further reflection it was closer to second grade or when a substitute teacher is introduced for the first time.

There is no doubt that this site is  more than a site, similar to the way golf is more than a game.


Paul_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2001, 03:24:00 PM »
Gib:

Everyone who posts on GCA shares one thing in common; feeding their addiction to golf!

From the plus one marker, to the guys giving 95 a fright, this website plays no favourite to the posters. BarneyF - a classic example. Is he really Tom Fazio in disguise?

This site is an important outlet for golfers who are irritated with the regular golf magazines. All too often (due to commercial realities) they are forced to concentrate on advertisements and gumff. Circulation issues are vital, and these detract from robust discussion and intrigue. Much of the stuff missed in the mags, is picked up here and shaken loose.

On a personal note, I enjoy learning about the golfing scene in the States, and by virtue, the American way of life.


JP Morgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2001, 07:19:00 PM »
Gib Papazian's eloquent post should be the "Intrologue" on the home page of this website.  Well done!

Mike_Cirba

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2001, 07:36:00 PM »
Gib,

Artfully written and obviously heartfelt.

Speaking of people from all walks of life getting together under a common thread, you would have enjoyed our get together at Inniscrone yesterday.  Young and older, accomplished golfers and dubs, from all different backgrounds and statuses, meeting in harmony and camaraderie and good humor, in mutual appreciation and rapt interest.

I don't know and won't speculate at this late hour as to what brings us together to analyze the playing fields of this game.  I only know that nothing that feels so right and easy and entertainingly educational could be wrong.  

Post on!


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2001, 08:39:00 AM »
Connection ...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John_D._Bernhardt

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2001, 09:28:00 PM »
Well said Gib and thanks again and let us all continue to enjoy moments such as those.

Slag_Bandoon

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2001, 09:37:00 PM »
  Learning, direction, impression, expression, comaraderie, surprises, and a gathering of UNlike minded people in pursuit of unknown answers and perspectives.  

 This site is like a tip of a fishing pole.  Sometime's it stands attentive but sublime; other time's it's bent over in struggle with a feeerocious trophy.  Don't lose 'er! Let her play out. Drag squeelin'. Haul her in!. Nice one.  Make another cast in another spot. Repeat process.

I sit here in the high handicap bleacher seats (for free) heckling a bit sometimes but with a measured amount of chivalry.  I lurk more than I care to admit but it must be healthier than TV.  I think Mark Fine makes a strong point (twice)  , that if we don't play the game more than we talk about it we run the risk of becoming booksmart but not field smart.  (And political in a microcosmic site-centric way.)  Thanks to all.  You too PizzaMan. Fight corporate mediocrity!

! Carpe Niblick !
   


Patrick_Mucci

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2001, 06:12:00 AM »
Gib,

ENJOYMENT !


Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2001, 07:39:00 AM »
To learn...learn..and learn some more

Argue with TE Paul (love ya!!)

To have the honour of discussing with people like Tom Doak, Jeff Brauer, Tommy (mad sparky) Nacc., Paul Daley, Geoff Shackelford, Ran M., yourself Gib the list goes on..

Listening to Pat Mucci go on about NGLA...

or TE Paul about Pine Valley

Rich Goodale who should bring out his own book about his time in Scotland. The man seems to be a genius and has humour to go with as well.

How important is this site to world GCA..?  The writings here could be all gathered and make Ran a millionaire if he put it in a book.  The influence on GCA around the world is more than maybe any book ever written.  

There are courses now being built that are influenced by yourselves...my small design work is spurred on by this site EVERYDAY I go to work.

Graeme Webster (a great young architect)in Scotland who doesn't even use the internet asks me to log on most times he stays with me to read about what people have to say.  That means what you have to say is influencing courses in Scotland and Spain.

Jeff Brauer has said to me in private e-mails that he gets some ideas from the site.

I really believe that in 30 years time when others are writing about architecture that this site will be mentioned as a large influence on GCA in the world.

There are a lot of lurkers here that need to come out of the closet but don't have the balls...I don't believe in the bullsh*t about professional ethic.  If people like Mike Young, Jeff or Tom can do it so can any other architect...

Ran, I will say it again, I really hope that you could make a book out of these posts. Maybe even start another topic on the side of 'The best of GCA discussion group'

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2001, 08:21:00 PM »
Mark, I agree on play more, post less.  But, what do you figure it might cost (assuming one can gain access) to play an impressive percentage of the top 100?  By comparison, if a person of moderate means lives in GB&I, with the same dedication to make the one to three day trips, could play most of the great courses over there for a manageable amount of a costly but worthwhile hobby.  But to accomplish the goal of getting in a dose of top 100s in U.S., well it would take the financial means of a lottery winner to do so...  So I suspect that a number of us posting here play our local affordable courses and mix in a very few special treats per season when on a vacation, etc.  But, your point is well taken in consderation of getting out there often to really analyse and compare through experience.

Brian, regarding Ran's compiling "the best of GCA"... to make another million   I say let him have 50% of the profits for the idea of GCA, and put the rest into a green fee trust for X number of green fee grants for every "best of" post used in the making of the inevitable to be published tome!    

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

ForkaB

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2001, 08:36:00 PM »
Brian

Thanks for the kind words.

I have in fact written a fictionalized account of my first few years golfing in Scotland, but it has remained 95% complete since 1985.  Anybody out there want to be my agent and/or give me the inspiration (and the time) to finish the final 5%?

Cheers

Rich


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2001, 08:55:00 PM »
Rich, let's hope that your time at BD/PD next month will give you a suitable experience to draw together your reflections of Scotland and contrast them to the new world.  The obvious gap of some 15 years where the reader can assume the author's personal growth and aquisition of wisdom, and the new millenium perspective.  Sorry, I have no idea what I'm talking about, but as always am moved to say it.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

ForkaB

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2001, 10:08:00 AM »
Dick

Thanks for the advice.  It actually has quite a bit of relevance to the book the way it is written and how I plan to finish it--WHEN I CAN GET MYSELF OFF THIS DAMNED WEBSITE!!!!!

We'll talk about this in Bandon.  Perhaps I can use a fraction of the royalties from the movie rights to help fund your venture in the Great Plains.....

Rich


Slag_Bandoon

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2001, 10:29:00 AM »
  Rich, 5%  Hmmm, that's about a 320 yard par 4 to get home.  Will it have a happy ending?  

 (Funny how this thread started out with Gib's reverent, poignant eloquence about golf and this DG into... "THIS DAMNED WEBSITE!")    


ForkaB

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2001, 10:42:00 AM »
Slag

I've been standing on that 18th tee for 16 years now trying to decide on whether to go for the green or hit short of the trouble with a 6 iron and then try to wedge it close.

It will probably have as happy an ending as you can get with a murder mystery.......

Rich

PS--Gib and I just happen to express our reverence in different ways, from time to time.  Or, perhaps I spent too much time in the west of Scotland, where "......


ForkaB

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2001, 10:42:00 AM »
Slag

I've been standing on that 18th tee for 16 years now trying to decide on whether to go for the green or hit short of the trouble with a 6 iron and then try to wedge it close.

It will probably have as happy an ending as you can get with a murder mystery.......

Rich

PS--Gib and I just happen to express our reverence in different ways, from time to time.  Or, perhaps I spent too much time in the west of Scotland, where "......


ForkaB

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2001, 10:42:00 AM »
Slag

I've been standing on that 18th tee for 16 years now trying to decide on whether to go for the green or hit short of the trouble with a 6 iron and then try to wedge it close.

It will probably have as happy an ending as you can get with a murder mystery.......

Rich

PS--Gib and I just happen to express our reverence in different ways, from time to time.  Or, perhaps I spent too much time in the west of Scotland, where "......


ForkaB

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2001, 10:42:00 AM »
Slag

I've been standing on that 18th tee for 16 years now trying to decide on whether to go for the green or hit short of the trouble with a 6 iron and then try to wedge it close.

It will probably have as happy an ending as you can get with a murder mystery.......

Rich

PS--Gib and I just happen to express our reverence in different ways, from time to time.  Or, perhaps I spent too much time in the west of Scotland, where "......


ForkaB

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2001, 10:42:00 AM »
Slag

I've been standing on that 18th tee for 16 years now trying to decide on whether to go for the green or hit short of the trouble with a 6 iron and then try to wedge it close.

It will probably have as happy an ending as you can get with a murder mystery.......

Rich

PS--Gib and I just happen to express our reverence in different ways, from time to time.  Or, perhaps I spent too much time in the west of Scotland, where "......


ForkaB

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2001, 10:42:00 AM »
Slag

I've been standing on that 18th tee for 16 years now trying to decide on whether to go for the green or hit short of the trouble with a 6 iron and then try to wedge it close.

It will probably have as happy an ending as you can get with a murder mystery.......

Rich

PS--Gib and I just happen to express our reverence in different ways, from time to time.  Or, perhaps I spent too much time in the west of Scotland, where "......


ForkaB

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2001, 10:43:00 AM »
Slag

I've been standing on that 18th tee for 16 years now trying to decide on whether to go for the green or hit short of the trouble with a 6 iron and then try to wedge it close.

It will probably have as happy an ending as you can get with a murder mystery.......

Rich

PS--Gib and I just happen to express our reverence in different ways, from time to time.  Or, perhaps I spent too much time in the west of Scotland, where "YOU WEE FAT BASTARD!" is a term of endearment.  Or at least so have I been told......


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2001, 10:51:00 AM »
Just sitting here thinking a bit more about the scene of your recent convocation around libations at the 19th hole...  Jeepers, you guys had enough writing talent and historical perspective to collaborate on one hell of a screenplay.  Yikes, Gib, King, the Huntman, Tom, John, Adam, and his own self. Is there a transcript available?  

I want to be a mouse observing from the corner when the mother of all GCA 19th holes takes place, when the above wags are also gathered around the rootbeers with the likes of Slag, O'Neilism, BarnyF, Geoff, Tommy, TomEP, TommyMac, Mooch, Mingay, Klein, and even Whitten.  I will bring my own court reporter for the record  

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ D

What do we "use" this for?
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2001, 10:53:00 AM »
My gawd, but your stuttering man!

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