[TEPaul]

Without doubt one of the very top golf courses I've ever seen and primarily because it's archtitecture is very different and extraordinary to play!

I've never much talked about course "conditioning" but the way Co. Down's condition is now and has been recently is as perfect as could be for a course like that. To me it's the perfect "maintenance meld" with the course's architecture!

[Paul_Daley]

Yep, R.C.D.G.C. is incredible. H.S. Colt worked some magic here, and when you gaze
at the golden whins, its hard to imagine that he introduced the vegetation relatively late in the piece - late 1920s.

At other courses, many golfers curse the element of blind golf, but surprisingly turn a "blind eye" to the prevalence at Newcastle.

Tom, what did you make of that rather sad looking 'man-made' pond on the 17th fairway?
Obviously it is among the lowest lying area
of the links where drainage is poor, but you'd reckon they would fill it in, or
build it up and make a feature of the renewed work. As it is, the artificiality is a real shock to the system. As a result, some call it the best 17-hole links going, and nudge Royal Portrush ahead of it on account of the silly pond.

Another hole that seems to get 'fingered'is  County Down's 16th. I've heard golfers say
their feeling is one of anti-climax after blazing away at the green for the first time.

By conditioning, did you mean the links presented as true and hard, mean and lean, bouncy, and hopefully, not too green?

[TEPaul]

Paul:

About the condition ("conditioning") of Co. Down (I'm told by some members and significant ones that when they speak of the course or playing the course they don't refer to it as Royal Co. Down, Co. Down or RCDGC or anything like that, they refer to it as Newcastle or going to play at Newcastle), I mean just what you said above; the course's condition is ideal, perfect etc, for what the architecture is--firm, fast throughout, firm and smooth greens, loads of (green-surrounding) very tight chipping area that excentuates every single little topographical feature and golf feature of the course! This is what I call the ideal "maintenance meld"! I certainly don't mean ideal conditioning in the Augusta sense.

Coincidentally the course is unusually green (for RCDGC) but they tell me that's a function of the fairly unusual seasonal weather at this time and is just coincidental (they do have irrigation but hardly ever use it). I would never refer to it as lush and actually it had a little bit of that dull green "sheen" to the whole course which I've come to recognize as a golf course with the "maintenance lights turned up full" (a bit like the way Shinnecock and sometimes NGLA have looked recently).

[Paul Turner]

Paul

What was Colt's exact involvement at RCD?

[Paul_Daley]

Tom:

Thanks for the info. Delighted to hear that County Down hasn't gone the way of some links and become excessively green, losing its intrinsic links qualitites.

Paul:

Colt did many things at County Down, but in hindsight, one of the best things he did was prepare the links for the introduction of steel shafts. He added much length to the Old Tom Morris layout, and greatly reduced the degree of blindness; much in the way Lahinch has been reduced over the years.
For instance, today all magazines/postcards  feature the world famous 9th hole. Before 1928, both the 8th and 9th were short blind par 3s to complete the outward half. The old 8th green lay just over the hill from the present 9th tee - one hundred and something yards away. After a bit of a hike, you played another par 3 from the middle of the present 9th fairway up over dunes, to near the present 9th green. These dunes have been since removed.

Colt's remodelling of the 18th green and its surrounds, drew much praise in the manner it made the hole more playable. Once, only the barest touch over the green would send the ball scurrying out of bounds. Colt added a good deal of protection and became the toast of the bar.

As mentioned, Colt planted all the golden whins (gorse eqivelant)absent for the first few decades of the club.

Colt built the famous long par 3, 4th hole, played over a sea of whins. Previously, the 4th was a 500 yard par 5.

1953 was some year: Hogan at Carnousite, and County Down becoming Royal County Down.

[TEPaul]

Paul Daley:

That's very interesting what you say about #8 and #9 RCD pre 1928. I must say I'm having a hard time visualizing how the course and routing worked compared to what it is today. What was #7 pre 1928 if #8 & #9 were par 3s? Maybe eventually you could go through the course as it is today and explain how to your knowledge it is different today from pre 1928.

I did play with the nicest and most knowledgeable man, who may be considered RCD's historian. He took me into a large room and showed me the extraordinary stick routing that is now carefully guarded from  anti-sun damaging rays of the original course of 1888--at least that is his supposition of this stick routing plan. It is not signed and might be Tom Morris. I told him it looked quite a lot in drawing style like the few things I've seen of Harry Colt's hole drawings of other places but he said it was far older than that. The drawing had some of the light blue ink coloration that I believe Colt used on some of the hole drawings of Pine Valley, for instance. But this was obviously much older because as he pointed out this stick routing drawing had the original 1st hole clearly starting about where the Slieve Donnard hotel is now--so obviously it is the original 1888 course version. This man found this routing himself stuck away somewhere in a tube--quiet a find, I would say!

RCD seems to take an attitude that their  course is very much evolutionary and will continue to be so. But so as not to alarm the Golfclubatlas architectural swat team they seem very much to understand the character and aura of the course and what to do about it and what not to do.

#18 has been beefed up architecturally just recently and from what I could tell about the way it was recently and the way it is now they have done an excellent job!

#16 however, is a hole that is undergoing some architectural planning for significant change. I was shown where the new tees would be (well to the right of where they are now) and where the new green would be (well to the left of where it is now). I mentioned that if they did such a thing why not just leave the present tees and green where it now is and use both holes however and whenever they saw fit.

To my amazement he told me that that decision revolved as much around the consistency of the new green's putting surface as anything else! To insure that, the thinking at the moment appears to be to take the grass off the present green and use it for the new green. I said that I thought with proper soil and grass samples and testing they could just leave the surface (grass) of the present surface alone and match it on the new green to their satisfaction. If any of our experts,  agronomists and supers on this site have some ideas about that, now is the time to make some recommendations!

I did tell him that plenty of great courses have two greens so even two separate holes (that would criss-cross in an X like fashion) would work too. I didn't really need to tell this man that as he obviously knows about almost every great course anywhere as he's a former Captain of the R&A!

One of our American team also told me he was told by a member that there may be an unusual (and probably sometimes annoying) habit occasionally of golfers holding the flag out of the 16th hole until they have finished teeing off on #17!

I've never minded blindness in the slightest but now have a real love and respect for certain kinds of blindness after the few days at RCD. They have some of the most "in your face" blindness I've ever seen or imagined and I really like all of it. I do recognize that this kind of thing would not work for everyone but for RCD it works beautifully and makes the course so different than most anything I've seen before.

#13 has quickly risen into probably my top five favorite holes in the world! I've never seen anything quite like it and the unusual cape effect of the right side on the drive creating the almost total blindness for the approach is really great! But what that green and it's total surrounds and all the fascinating movement in the run-up approach and to the right of it can do to the golf ball is about the best (and most multi-optional) I've ever seen!

[Paul Turner]

Paul

Thanks for the info.

TEPaul

I'm peeved about the planned changes to the driveable 16th.  It's the perfect foil to the long and tough 15th.  It appears the members listened to Gary Player too much.

Will the new hole be about the same length?  Did you find out who is doing the work?

[Jim Reilly]

I played RCD in August of 98 and it was by far the best conditioned (I mean in the firm and fast way) of any of the courses I played in Ireland.  When you come to New Castle, you simply must bring your driving game.  If you do that, the blindness will not bother you a bit and like Tom, you'll develop an affection for it.

I'll never forget the first time I teed off there.  I was playing with my wife, who is more than reluctant in front of a gallery.  About 35 or 40 members were assembled for a foursome competition.  They saw us as a two ball and insisted we have the tee.  I handed Bianca her driver, which was received with a trembling hand.  The silence was deafening as she addressed the ball.  The crack of the ball compressing against the clubface and the cheers from the members broke the silence as I watched the ball sail true through the air, bound down the fairway (disappearing and appearing as it ran) as we walked off the first tee to the fading cheers from behind.

Ah, a magical place!

[TEPaul]

Paul:

I wouldn't worry too much about #16 unless they decide to discontinue the present #16. From what I could see the concept there might be really neat and interesting if there were actually two holes, the old and the new that crisscrossed in and X fashion, if you can visualize that. The new green site is probably about 70-90yds to the left in what is now some very low trees and it looks like the new green site would also be a plateau area although probably a little broader and a little lower than the present hole.

I was told the new hole would be around 300yds. They way it was shown to me and the way I visualized it it could probably even use the same lower short fairway that the present one does. I think the whole idea could work fine!

Just think, If they cleared some trees and bushes out behind #15 you could just walk straight back, look to see which green had the flag (or which didn't) and then proceed right or left to the tee for that particular green! I've never seen anything like that and I think it could work great if only they would leave the present one there!

Either way one of the members did say that the present hole, although almost a large par 3 for some, is one helluva a good match play hole and at just the right time in the routing and round too. The new one could be the same! But why decide to have one when you could just as easily have two?

As for who the architect is (if any). I did mention Donald Steele at one of the dinners, but I can't remember if it was Portrush or County Down and their eyes lit up. One of the other of them has been consulting with him for a long time. I think it is RCD, probably because of the new work done on #18 for the British Senior Open. The stroke average on #18 for that tournament was something like 5.91!! Don't think Gary Player had a thing to do with anything except for some other dumb remarks. If my memory serves they might not be quite as ticked at him as they are at Portrush but it could be close. Don't forget most of these people know each other and it doesn't take long for word to go from Portrush to Newcastle.

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,

What is your favorite nine holes in the world? Is it the front at RCD?

How would you compare it to either side at Pine Valley or either side at National?

Cheers,

[Note: This message has been edited by David]

[TEPaul]

Ran:

My favorite nine holes in the world? Wow, that's a tough one for me!

I sure do admire both nines at PVGC and Merion too and RCD's front is a great one too that shares the same sort of off-beat balance and variety and par-skewing that  Pacific Dunes has too (both up and down) and NGLA does too (only up), Maidstone too (only up). I would love to play Riviera too to get a clearer idea!

But if you're trying to get me to choose my absolute favorite nine, I just can't do it! All I can do is narrow it down some and that would be to either nine at NGLA!

Face it, if NGLA was just called a par 70 instead of a 73, the course and probably it's architecture would get a lot more attention than it does! And for all the wrong reasons, I might add!!

Here's a question for you. How much more attention would Maidstone get if they dropped its par from 72 to 70? And here's an even more interesting one! Although RCD's front nine is really good, how much more attention do you think it's front nine would get (and the course too) if they dropped it's front nine to 34 instead of 35? Do you think anyone would really notice that then the front nine didn't have a par 5 on it?

I bet you just said to yourself, of course they would notice there was no par 5 on the front nine. Think again, though, how many times you've really noticed there is no par 5 on Merion back nine!!

Looking at a course's total par, card yardage etc is really BS, if when you look closer at the individual quality of each hole and how they combine in the golfer's mind then they tend not to notice the whole. Generally it becomes more apparent when you drop the par down but sometimes it can go the other way brilliantly like at the back nine at Easthampton due to #17 and how that hole's architecture AND ITS PAR NUMBER plays on the golfer's mind!

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,

Wrong answer! How can you turn a question about favorite nines into a discussion on par when we all agree par is meaningless? Shame on you!

As for the front at NGLA vs RCD,

1. NGLA 1 up
2. all square
3. all square (maybe the two best 3rd holes in the world?)
4.
5. RCD 1 up
6. all square
7. all square
8. NGLA 1 up (but barely!)
9. all square

Thus, however you lean on the 4th hole is how the match would go. From the forward tee, I would give it to NGLA but from the championship tee, 4 at RCD loses to no man nor beast!

Cheers,

[Paul_Daley]

Tom:

The links that was updated by H.S.Colt in the late 1920s, became the 4th routing devised since its inception in 1888. Club stalwart, George Coombe, had a real thirst
for continous improvement and drove many club changes over this period; removal of some of the rectangular shaped greens, blindness, and lengthening.

In the next week or so, I will to the best of my knowledge outline how the links has evolved into what it is today. It appears as though the most heavily changed holes have been the 7th, 8th and 9th.

A fantastic find by the gentleman you mentioned; imagine stumbling across something like that in a tube! It sounds very much like the original routing, wherby the old 1st was around 280-290 yards, as you say, commencing about where the Slieve Donnard is today.

[TEPaul]

Ran:

Are you serious? How can I turn a question  about great nines into a discussion about par when we all know par is meaningless?

Have you forgotten that I'm the guy who can seamlessly turn a question on great nines (or anything else) into a discussion of something like the driving habits of Fireball Roberts at LeMans? A man, I might add, who may not have even known how to spell golf!

And you misunderstand, I'm agreeing with you anyway. I know we all probably feel that par is somewhat meaningless but unfortunately the vast majority of American golfers (and others) are having a hard time agreeing with us.

You know it's true that you can put 9 out of 10 golfers on #1 at RCD, tell them it's a par 5 and they are for some reason going to come back and tell you it's sort of a nothing hole--too short--whatever, and that Tiger could probably hit it in two with a wedge!

And the next day you could take that same guy put him back on #1 RCD without touching a blade of grass, tell him it's now a par 4 and he would come back and tell you that it's one hell of a hole!

You know that's true. We may not think par means much but try tell that to the majority of golfers!

[Mr. Hat Man]

Tom, I played RCD on 9/8 with a few friends & had the good fortune of playing in the "Hat" Tournament. We were able to have the full experience of lunch prior to playing & then were paired w/ two members in each group. What a blast! A tremendous golf course & experience as a whole. From the layout of holes to the terrain to the fantastic views. I was impressed w/ the speed & condition of the greens, especially compared to Portmarnock which were much more grainy. On a side note I'm glad to hear that the AJDP is still on, despite last weeks event. It's one of my favorites every year!

[TEPaul]

Ran:

Excuse me! I admit that #4 RCD is a helluva a hole from the back--a helluva hole--what a view, what a tee to green perspective, and throw in a little wind thank you very much, what a difference from the middle tees--and I agree that it may not lose to any man or beast, but it does lose to its counterpart at NGLA! I would concede that RCD's #4 does win from tee to green--let me take that back a bit! I concede that RCD's #4 does win (even quite handily) from tee to somewhere NEAR the green, but when you get in the vicinity of the right fairway shoulder of #4 NGLA, RCD's #4 starts to lose ground real fast and when you step onto the putting surface at #4 NGLA then #4 RCD's green surface better just step aside real fast so as not to get steamrolled even flatter than it is by by #4 NGLA--one of the world's coolest green surfaces!!

And #6? Excellent hole #6 RCD, but architecturally does not stand up to NGLA's #6 which possesses just about THE BEST green surface in the world! And the fact that this little hole turns architectural formulaics squarely on its head by it's green size and unique "greens within a green" only adds bonus points to "the short". And don't you dare come back and say to me that why in that case has "the short's" green surface not been copied? I have the truest answer imaginable why no other architect has copied MacD's "short" green surface, and I quote Lanny Wadkins when asked why no other golfer is as aggressive as he is (which incidentally  includes every other golfer in the world); Lanny's succinct reply was; "Cuz they ain't got the guuuts!"

I would go:

1. NGLA 1up
2. NGLA 1up
3. NGLA 1up (Probably are the two best #3s!)
4. NGLA 2up
5. NGLA 1up
6. NGLA 2up
7. NGLA 2up (Big John great green surface battling Little John great surface!)
8. NGLA 3up (I'll go with your "barely"!)
9. NGLA 2up (Can you tell me how you would play RCD's tee shot into a strong wind??)

Cheerio

[TEPaul]

Mr. Hat Man:

Looks like my first round at RCD followed yours by three days which would put it at, yep, 9/11, quickly turning into the day of one of history's most infamous moments!

I guess the moment of realization will be burned into all our memories forever like Kennedy's assassination and Pearl Harbor the generation before us. It will for me and it was rounding the corner of the pro shop after coming off #18 Royal County Down. One American, who had been in a group two groups ahead of us and taken about 5 1/2 hours to play with a four hole gap ahead of them came running out of the pro shop screaming "those lunatics have taken down the Twin Towers and the Pentagon!"

So we stepped right into the pro shop and watched the twin towers collapsing. At least four of our group panicked darn quickly as they all had friends and FAMILY just in and around the Twin Towers. They rushed into the office in the clubhouse and I gotta say those four secretaries in there did something none of us will ever forget. They handed those guys the telephones and said just dial direct as often and as long as you need to!! What a moment!

Yes the AJDP is going to play. We met last night to decide what to do, play or cancel. To go ahead was decided as the thing to do even with one of our members in the tournament gone and of course the funeral of Davis Sezna's son, if scheduled this weekend, would likely decimate the tournament. But funerals had already taken out a substantial waiting list and somebody thought that if we fell below 64 teams we should cancel anyway because byes were totally untraditional. I said who cares about byes at a time like this and somebody else said if it falls too far below 64 we will just go to stroke play (for the first time). Somebody said in that case it really is too untraditional and we can't then call it the AJDPaul Tournament! I didn't say it but I was thinking, what difference does that make and if they feel that way about tradition they can call it the TEPaul Tournament as far as I'm concerned! That won't be necessary and one way or another it's going to be played.

Hope to see you there as I wasn't planning on playing this year but I'm going to now to try to keep the field up. Is you first name really Hat?

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,

I am surprised you consider the 2nd at NGLA to be in the same class as the 2nd at RCD. Also, I too gave #6 to NGLA.

What were your three least favorite holes? Unlike almost any world class course that I know of, I reckon just 90% plus would agree that they are the 17th (despite its green), the 12th , and the 14th (which lacks inspiration and isn't a particularly good compliment to the 10th). Save for those three, the course is bullet proof.

Also, what did you think of the 15th? The locals, as do you, worship the 13th but don't you reckon the 15th to be in the same class?

Cheers,

[TEPaul]

Ran:

You see how bad I am on rating and such! I can't even read who won the hole on some of your match play comparisons.

Anyway, I don't really know if NGLA's #2 is better than its counterpart at RCD or not. They are very different holes but each very interesting in their own way. I like #2 NGLA simply because it's so unusual looking and what happens on it. I think that it's pretty interesting too to have a par 4 that you can eagle and birdie easily if you hit a good and gutsy drive and get lucky too! And I really like the ramifications of the safer play with that hillariously deep bowl right of the green and the unusual approach shot it requires. I can't think of a hole remotely like that one and for a time now I've been really into things in architecture if they are very DIFFERENT and also very interesting in what you can do and what they require even if that does amount to seeming easy in certain circumstances!

My three least favorite holes at RCD? I can't say because I find something about all of them that I like and almost think is world class. I don't really like the first 3/4 of #17 but I like the green very much!

And I really don't agree on #14. I think it and #10 have an unusually similar feel to them with #10 being a much prettier hole to look at. But I think that #10 is actually quite a lot easier to play and less demanding of the golfer. We played both down wind for a couple of days and the play on #10 was to hit an iron up in the air about 20yds short of the green into a fairway approach that actually plays much wider than it appears! I would call #10 in that wind condition just a "straight down hole".

#14, on the other hand has far more complexitiy to it due to the cant of the green and the run-up and the mound right (which is much closer to the green than the mound on #10)and the bunkering all along the left side of the green. The shot selections and variations are much greater on #14, in my opinion, and the margins for error are  much smaller. In a way the thought of Doak's #9 Stonewall came to mind both times I played #14 RCD because the only way to get the ball close to the right front pin the way I was playing it (or almost hold the ball on the green at all) was to hit a small area in the fairway to the right of the green and dangerously close to the extremely penal right mound and carom it onto the green!

I'm also getting quite good at noticing architecture and blocking other things out because I must have stood on that tee for five minutes and looked down at that hole before I even noticed the very unattractive trailor park behind it. And actually I didn't even notice it. Somebody mentioned it and then I noticed it.

#15 is just another great hole with another completely different look and feel. We were playing it into the wind and it was almost a half par! The drive is good due to the need to reach the top of the ridge no matter how generous the fairway is and the second shot is a different feel than anything that came before with those mid fairway bunkers that really aren't of that much consequence and all that extremely low profile and seamless transition from flat fairway into flat green.

I was about 40yds and right in the middle of the fairway in front of the green and I have a 64 degree wedge and I thought to myself, I've already tried some interesting European run-up shots so this time I'm going to open up this wedge and hit it straight up in the air and land it soft by the pin. At this point the wind was howling right to left across the green so I aimed about 15 paces right of the flag and hit it straight up in the air. And you know, Ran, that this is a very large putting surface and the pin wasn't far from middle. The ball got into that wind took off well past the pin and well to the left of it, hit the back left of the green and shot off the green across that chipping area over there and almost into the woods. And this was just the shot I meant to hit too and only from about 40yds! I only tried that shot twice in Ireland and that will definitely be the last time.

When in Ireland hit the shots that the Irish do if it's windy, I guess is the point!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

Ahhh...the old lob wedge from 40 yards that ends up further from target and in deep trouble.  I've got that shot in my bag, and I don't even need a howling wind!  

[TEPaul]

But this was the perfect lob shot! In almost all circumstances it would have been nestling next to the pin. You should see this wedge in action. For this short and high a shot (you can't believe how straight up high it goes) the first order of business is to just lean back a bit through impact so the ball doesn't accidently glance off my chin on the way up.

I had the architectural ramifications all figured out but I forgot that you don't f... with Mother Nature and her goddamn wind when it's really blowing in Ireland!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

That's classic!  In retrospect, it sounds as though putter might have been the correct play.  

Having never hit a perfect lob wedge shot, my chin is unmarred.  

[Matthew Hunt]

Bump

Best thread on RCD Ive seen

[Johnny_Browne]

Tom/Ran et al,
Happy New Year to all at GCA. I suppose (know) I am rather privileged being a member of RCD and having played 18 holes last Saturday on a beautiful day with only about 20 people on the course. It is very much in a preparation state for this years walker cup and as such is in good, but not perfect order. My main criticism is that they are trying too hard to present a perfect course for September is that they forget on a links course you are often best just leaving a lot to nature. But that is another story.  We do suffer over here from bouts of excessive wet weather which have even links courses with water lying. It remains a wonderful test of golf and always a joy to play.  I love the blind tee shots which are only blind the first time you play them (and not if you have a caddy or play with a member). Just a couple of comments on 16 and 17 - 17 first - this is a great golf hole with a fascinating green. Forget the pond - it was there before I was born and never dries up so is just a local quirk. It can be reached (at times) but it then requires skill to reach the flat land in front of it - on Saturday I hit a good drive and a 3 iron to reach the green.  If the pond was a series of bunkers most people would think it is a great hole. The 16th has been changed and the jury are still out on this - personally although Donald Steele did the work, I am disappointed - it is a nice (but not great) tee shot straight at the Mournes but the green is not receptive from any angle and requires always an aerial shot rather than a pitch and run if you put your tee shot in the right place.  It has been changed once and I think the green will be changed again after the Walker Cup.  The 18th has been changed and is a great hole, although again I think it has been narrowed a little too much in that most players play safe rather than going for the green in 2 because the penalties are too severe.
I know several GCA members will be at the walker cup and I look forward to meeting them.
Regards,    Johnny Browne

[Chris Cupit]

I had the pleasure of playing RCD in 1999 and it remains one of my favorite courses in the world.  I heard of the possible changes to #16 and as long as it remains a driveable par 4, I think any changes would be OK.  

It may have been a rumour but I heard at one time there was talk of making it a hard, long par 3 which I think would be disastrous.  After 13, 14 and 15 coming to an "easy birdie" like 16 only puts more pressure on you to play a great or heroic shot that you feel you lost on the previous holes.

I agree that #17 with the pond in the fairway seemed a bit odd and out of place but other than that, it is an incredible course.  

Holes 3 and 4 are spectacular, #5 is very good, #6 played straight downwind is an absolute bear with a PW in your hand.  8 green and the tee shot on #9 are awesome--where is there a better view than cresting the hill and looking down #9 fairway.  10 tee shot is great sitting right near the clubhouse, 11 tee shot and approach, 13, 15, 16, second on 17 are all great.

I had heard about what a dissapointment 18 was supposed to be and while it wasn't great I didn't think it a bad hole at all. They had added some bunkers along the right side and the hole was reachable under certain conditins.  Again, after getting beat up on most of the golf course I didn't mind having a relatively easy finishing hole.  18 green did have some neat undulation if I remember--sloping sides and a bit of a false front I think.

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