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TEPaul

Royal Port Rush
« on: September 18, 2001, 03:41:00 AM »
Just got home from N. Ireland and playing five courses including Royal Port Rush (Valley and Dunluce). The experience at three courses we went to was seriously enhanced not just by playing and seeing them but by the fact that we played pre-arranged competitions with a like numbered group of members at each (and some very significant members at that)!

Port Rush has got to be some of the most extraordinary natural golfing ground on earth! And the way the golf architecture of the courses uses it is commensurately extraordinary! So many of the holes could never be conceived of by any architect off a plain canvas! The hallmark of many of the holes is "unique" and "different, different, different". No wonder some of our early architects went to Europe to study golf concepts!

I would love to discuss some of the wonderful and unusually things I saw on some of these courses in an architectural context but for the moment will sign off with an interesting sidebar on modern architectural thought meeting natural golfing ground such as this.

Standing on the side of the tee and leaning over the rail at "Calamity" at Port Rush was one of the most impressive golfing sights of my life. Just looking at "Calamity" was exciting enough but also looking down on the breathtaking "broken ground" natural terrain of the entire Valley course below was just unbelievably breathtaking. The sidebar is that apparently Gary Player was leaning on the same rail not long ago that I was leaning on and was heard to say to all near him that that ground was nothing that a fleet of really big bulldozers couldn't fix!! The golfers of Port Rush are absolutely furious at him and definitely don't want to see his face any time soon!


Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Royal Port Rush
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2001, 04:05:00 AM »
Tom,

Which did you prefer Royal Portrush or Royal County Down? Why?

Cheers,

PS And no hedging!


Paul Turner

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2001, 04:08:00 AM »
TEPaul

Sounds like you had a fabulous time in Northern Ireland.  I've played several rounds on the Dunluce but never got to the Valley.  I stupidly assumed it was too inferior to Dunluce to bother with  
Would you detail some of the holes for us?

What did you think of the 5th on the Dunluce?  I think that might be my favourite hole anywhere.


Paul Perrella

  • Karma: +0/-0
Royal Port Rush
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2001, 05:14:00 AM »

 Gents,

 I'm heading over this Friday and all of this talk about RCD and Portrush(is it one word) is getting me really excited. I hope to be able to post some of my own observations upon my return. Until then please keep this thread going.
          Paul


THuckaby2

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2001, 05:35:00 AM »
Ran, you're evil, you know that?  Talk about an extremely difficult choice... Portrush Dunluce or RC Down... But snicker, snicker, I was gonna ask the same thing!  OK, I'm waiting on pins and needles for Tom Paul's response.  

Paul, are things set with my cousin?  I'll send him an email reminder... but let me know first.

TH
tom.huckaby@clorox.com

ps - I'm gonna go with RC Down.  But God that's a hard choice...And I reserve the right to hedge indefinitely.


THuckaby2

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2001, 05:43:00 AM »
ps - please correct me if I'm wrong, but I am fairly certain that Portrush is spelled like that - one word, lower case "r" in "rush".  Tom Paul, did you see it there as two words?  

Eccentricity of mine, I do like to get these right.  And Tom P, you're right, the members I met did refer to RC Down as "Newcastle."
But I also heard "County Down" a lot...

TH


Mike Touscany

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2001, 07:19:00 AM »
All this talk is absolutely killing me.  Of all the weeks to have planned to be in N.Ireland, we had to choose this one.  We cancelled last Friday and now I sit at my desk reading this and the RCD thread.  

In the scheme of things, Ireland will be there next year, and we need to be with our families, but golly, I was sure looking forward to these courses this week.

Couldn't someone throw me a bone and tell me how overrated these courses are or that they are in poor condition.  I'll take just about anything now.  Glad you had a good time though TEPaul.


GeoffreyC

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2001, 07:26:00 AM »
Tom Paul

Your description of Portrush puts a smile on my face and brings back extremely fine memories of my favorite of all links courses.

I have not played County Down (yet) but I thought I read about Gary Player saying the same thing at this years Sr. Open at RCD. Perhaps we should all copy Players blind chipping areas hidden behind bunkers totally unconnected to green coutours for a high standard of golf architecture as seen at Jasna Polana? Now thats what needs a bulldozer!


John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Royal Port Rush
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2001, 07:36:00 AM »
For what it's worth, I preferred RCD.

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Royal Port Rush
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2001, 09:17:00 AM »
Tom H., I'm afraid that by asking said question, Tom Paul's answer will exceed his own personal best O.L.P. (obscenely long post)!

We shall see  


THuckaby2

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2001, 09:59:00 AM »
That's gonna be a TOUGH record to break, akin to what Barry Bonds is gonna try to do the next few weeks.

The golf world is waiting!

TH


TEPaul

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2001, 10:48:00 AM »
It is Royal Portrush G.C. not Port Rush as I spelled it above.

Which did I prefer? That's a tough one but if you're asking me not to hedge I would say I preferred Newcastle! But the reason would probably not be because of a straight  architectural comparison or a comparison of the inherent interest of the layouts for golf.

Both courses have so much going for them in so many different ways I wouldn't even make an architectural comparison just to try to determine which was better. But I would be glad to make architectural comparisons as to why both are so good and also quite different from each other in interesting and subtle ways although both are Northern Irish seaside courses. In a quick sentence, to play either course well, in my opinion, you have to play them quite differently, or at least you certainly can!

I would say I preferred RCD only because its conditioning was just about prefect in every conceivable way for what the course is! To be fair to Portrush its greens had been recently aeriated and sanded and were more inconsistent to play and much slower.

RCD's fairways and greens were firm and fast and true as could be. And the thought and maintenance that went into the approach run-ups and very tight and sometimes massive chipping areas in interesting places around the greens was a total joy to try to figure out and play. When I say the "interesting areas" of tight lie chipping I really mean that too because they certainly weren't everywhere surrounding the greens and after a while that becomes a design feature you very much pick up on and need to notice in the context of where to miss the ball, particularly in very windy conditions.

I would also think that Portrush might have twice the elevation change on the site as RCD, and, if not, the elevation changes along many of the holes at Portrush are much greater than RCD once you factor out the unique perpendicular and enormous  topography that creates the total tee shot blindness that RCD must be famous for on many of its holes. Three of the par 3 tees  at RCD are on very high ground in relation to the rest of the hole though.

RCD has far more bunkers than Portrush and it's far more penal and difficult to avoid. RCD's particular shaped bunkers are also about the most ruggedly beautiful in the world! On the tee shots, interestingly, RCD's bunkering is almost always on or near the flanks of the fairways but there are so many individual bunkers at RCD they are hard to get out of your mind. Portrush's tee shot concern is a bit more about avoiding flanking mounds or internal fairway slopes and contours that are dangerous or hitting the parts that are benefical. Portrush uses enormous natural mounds and hillocks that pinch in on tee shots and on green approaches. RCD has plenty of this but probably not as much. RCD does, however,  seem to have something at some point on almost every hole that makes you think of either gearing down, gearing up or getting really pinched in! Maybe they both have a lot of this but it seems Portrush uses the natural topography along its holes and RCD uses bunkering more! But maybe RCD has almost as much pinching topography. RCD does win in the bunker category though! It probably beats almost any course in the world in this category. Both courses have about 3-4 holes that have some of the most thoughtful approach bunkering right in the middle of the fairways too.

The approach shot architecture at RCD is  lower profile than Portrush, particularly at the green fronts and allows the golfer to play probably a greater variety of runup shots. Many of Portrush's green entrances are upslopes and would lead me, anyway, to try to fly the ball to the fronts of the greens more or hit something very low to get it on the ground well back and running up the approach inclines! When you factor in high wind conditions Portrush might actually be a little harder to play because of more of this.

But I might have to take even that back because although RCD has low profile approaches and probably much longer ones on some holes, the subtle contours and low level mounds and humps and bumps on its approaches and how they tie into the really interesting contours of the greens vis-a-vis where the ball ends up on the green could be about the best I've seen in the world.  

Both courses have a considerable amount of quirk and both have holes that do have certain pars although the best policy (in the wind anyway) is to just do the best you can and to really think about how to minimize some kind of disaster! Both have par 5s that can be like par 4s and RCD has a par 4 that is really a very long par 3! But each has its own interesting strategic price to pay for aggressiveness and stupidity.

Both courses are extremely beautiful in their natural ruggedness although Portrush looks more rugged while RCD has the captivating Mountains of Mourne directly to the south when the golfer turns that way.

Both are certainly in my very top favorites in the world and when I finished playing RCD the thought did occur to me that this might be just about my favorite course right up there with NGLA and Pine Valley. I say this despite the fact that a few holes are probably odd or unfair to the modern golfer. I must say in the high wind I really don't know what I would try to do on the tee shot on #9 RCD and yes the pond on #17 is odd but the hole does have a great green surface, dangerous greenside bunkering and some great run-up shot options.

Some of the tee shot blindness at RCD is alarming but I do love it! If you really don't like or don't understand blindness I would advise just not going to Newcastle.

So although I say here that I preferred RCD to Portrush, it's really all in the "maintenance meld" that turns the lights up full on a course's inherent design. If Portrush had more of it than RCD instead of the other way around maybe I would go the other way. But like I found out a couple of years ago at NGLA this "maintenance meld" thing is really important--really important! Look at what it's done to Huntingdon Valley too!

Anyway, they are two great golf courses and if you're interested in some great architecture and design concepts both are mother lodes!

#5 Dunluce is a world class hole, one of the most interesting I've ever seen, and so is  #8 and many of the others. Again, RCD's #13 is probably in my top 3 par 4s anywhere now and so is #7 for a short par 3, and RCD has many others too!

Somebody asked about the Valley course at Portrush and it too is a wonderful thing to play and see although not as sophisticated as Dunluce. I would also call the Valley a golfing ground, if you know what I mean, where Dunluce is more a course with very individual and separated holes. The Valley is probably a lot like things used to mostly be long ago!

The Valley's #2 even melds so startingly into Dunluce's #17 that my partner got hit on the thigh and dropped by a full bore drive while walking the first half of #17. But he's an old Irish rugby player and he just got up and kept going.


TEPaul

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2001, 10:52:00 AM »
Ok, so you're making fun of my lengthy posts again, are you? In that case the one above will serve only as a simple prologue!

THuckaby2

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2001, 11:05:00 AM »
That would have to qualify as O.L.P.

But I love it, where else can one read such great stuff?

Tom Paul, I will say this:  when I played both last September, Newcastle's greens were among the best-conditioned I have ever played.  I mean they were superb.  And the rest of the course just "fit", as you say... Portrush Dunluce was also in very fine shape though, so it didn't "lose" anything by my account.

This being said, I still can't really choose between the two all that much because each is among my all-world favorite courses... so I am hedging like crazy!

In a perfect world though, I want to be my cousin:  a member at Castlerock who plays Portrush & Portstewart for kicks.  That is living.

Of course I'm not gonna turn down the Newcastle membership if it's offered....

Sorry Mike Touscany, I can't say a negative word about Ireland golf.  But for your sake, I'll try my best:

The whole place sucks, the courses are over-rated, the people are nasty, it ain't worth going over, you're better off at home.

Feel better?

TH


TEPaul

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2001, 11:49:00 AM »
Two of the eight of us did play Portstewart one morning too. We were probably out on the 3rd hole by the time the sun rose over the horizon.

There is some serious topography to play through on that front nine and the back is a different deal. With the exception of one day at Royal County Down the wind howled like hell the entire time over there and we all tried to play accordingly. I hit a 1 iron off tees over there about 95% of the time and with the fast conditions that worked just fine. At Portstewart two caddies who were members sort of made our round--they were great guys.

They are building a another eighteen onto Portstewart right now. It's all down along the Bann river.


THuckaby2

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2001, 12:09:00 PM »
Very cool, Tom.  FYI, my cousin lives right across the Bann from where the new 18 is going in... up the hill a bit, that's all... Yep, I want to be him.

For me, the front nine at Portstewart is as good as it gets.  Too bad you played 1 and 2 in the dark... the view from 1 tee is incredible.  2 ain't bad either....

Here's hoping they make proper use of the land by the Bann and then tie together the best 18 holes.  I doubt that's what they have in mind but dare to dream....

TH

btw - the members' bar at Portstewart has to be among the great post-round drinking spots on this or any other Earth.  Good God did I have fun there...


Slag_Bandoon

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2001, 12:12:00 PM »
 Tommy,  Who is 'they' in building the 2nd course at Portstewart?  
If we ever meet you'll have to teach me how to hit with a 1 iron. Please.  

Raymond

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2001, 12:24:00 PM »
After playing both of these courses this past May, I rated Portrush slightly ahead of Newcastle. At that time I thought Portrush's conditioning as slightly superior. If RCD nines were reversed I may have preferred it. The one distraction at Portrush was the frequent use of OB markers where none seemed necessary. Were these always there or a result of recent increases in outside play? Are they used to discourage ball hunting and speed up play?

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Royal Port Rush
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2001, 12:38:00 PM »
Tom,

Two questions regarding Portrush:

1. Apart from the 13, 14, and 16 holes at Portrush, what do you think of the remaining supporting cast of holes on the back nine?

2. Did you find Portrush played wide enough for its windy locale? I last saw it in 1997 and the rough was oppressively high from a wet summer, the fairways oppressively narrow, and the wind oppressively high. A round there was nothing more than survival (which is fine by me given the extreme circumstances) but it was further reduced to nothing more than keeping your head down and wading through the rough in search of one golf ball after another, which was no fun (and that is not fine by me). Conversely, I have always had a blast playing RCD, and in much worse weather.

Cheers,


Paul Turner

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2001, 12:49:00 PM »
TEPaul

What about the greens?  Portrush definitely has the better set. (Although I still give RCD the nod overall)


TEPaul

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2001, 06:45:00 PM »
Ran:

To answer your question about the supporting cast of hole at Portrush other than 13, 14 and 16.

I think that #10 is actually interesting architecturally only in a minor way and that is the left blind bunker and convex landing area in the rather short second shot landing area. They may have added some bunkering along the right side since you were there that directs tee shot more to the left and does add some strategic thought on the tee.

#11 we played both days into a serious headwind which made just hitting the green pretty dicey. A good hole in my opinion with some green surface interest!

#12 we also played into a headwind/sidewind and I thought the tumbling topography of the fairway was good and the green was good also due to its narrowness and the collecting fall offs on either side (particularly right) which made the green smaller even than it is!

#15 I heard Peter Allis said was a nothing hole but I don't think so. Not that hard but one still has to think and choose the correct club to be where you want to be on both the drive and the second shot and frankly the options of doing both are many. It might be a nothing hole if you hit it straight enough and long enough to get all the way down the steep decline at the end of the fairway but I didn't do that with my 1 iron.

#17 I really did find a bit odd on the drive (interesting with a 1 iron) and not that inspiring the rest of the way. The massive bunker to the right on the tee shot does play with your mind, I guess, although there is no real reason why it should.

#18 is a long par 4 (depending on the wind direction) but plays well either into or down wind with its long and releasing approach fairway and very long green!

Paul:

Funny, I thought the greens at RCD were actually the better set although quite a few greens on both courses are much harder and more interesting to approach than to putt on. The greens of serious approach interest and also putting interest with excentuating exclamations at RCD are;

#2, hard to get distance control on this blind green in approaching it and easy to slip off to right approaching it and off the other way chipping back to it!

#3!, good arc-like ridge across the front and right!

#6!, good raised convex surface and hard to keep the ball on and easy to slip off the side.

#7!!! One of the best short par 3s I've ever seen and deserving of an entire post. Fall off to the left and back are great. The blindness makes this short ridge located par #3!

#8! Easy to fall off this green on either side between two pinching in approach hillocks on either side.

More later, got to go to sleep.


Paul Turner

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2001, 07:34:00 PM »
Tom Paul

I remember the greens at Portrush having significantly more contour than RCD.  Perhaps this was less noticeable for you because of the disparity in the relative green condition?


TEPaul

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2001, 12:37:00 AM »
Paul:

I was going to say the same thing myself and thought I sort of did. There was a big disparity last week in the speed and consistency of the greens between Portrush and County Down. There was also a big disparity in the tightness and consequent difficultly (options and playability) of chipping areas too.

This kind of thing probably did throw me off and that's one of the reasons I did say above that it may have (with the aeriated and sanded greens etc) and another reason I didn't really want to compare the two courses when asked which is BETTER!

I don't really like to compare great courses anyway and most on here know that--I think Ran does too and probably was why he asked me not to hedge my answer on which is better. I would prefer to look at the architecture of a course (and even compare if I must but only on an equal footing) and just talk about how good it is or not! Another reason I'm not very interested in ratings and relative comparative numbers.

But I think you are right that Portrush's greens given the same condition or "maintenance meld" as RCD had last week could come out differently (in my opinion after playing both).

It is really just that the lights were turned up full last week on RCD's architecture and they weren't on Portrush's! We all know that can change very quickly and should be considered if comparing courses.

Because the lights weren't turned up full last week at Portrush I probably missed a lot and that's what I meant to say!

RCD was probably rolling at about 9-9.5 and Portrush was considerable less and sand was always on the ball because they'd been topped too I guess!

There was one oddity with the condition last week at Portrush that really did throw me off. That was that although the greens putted slow the chips would just not slow down as I expected they would! And the reason for that is probably just what you're saying, that the greens have far more contour and complexity to them than I was picking up with my eye and feel because I just thought they were slow!

Good point and again I'm sure not trying to give Portrush a bum rap because it was in a green maintenance mode last week and RCD wasn't!


Allen_Rebstock

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2001, 12:53:00 PM »
Tom Paul,
  I played 36 at both RCD and Portrush a couple of years ago and had a hard time deciding on my favorite. RCD by a nose. I too was mesmerized by the view from the 14th overlooking the Valley course. I fell in love with N. Ireland and was my favorite part of Ireland having also covered the Dublin area, Rosses Point & Donegal area, Lahinch, Ballybunion, Ring of Kerry and Cork areas. You mentioned 5 courses. What about Ballycastle or Castlerock?  What did you hear about those courses, did you play them or what other 2 did you play beside Portstewart.

TEPaul

Royal Port Rush
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2001, 07:17:00 PM »
Allen:

I played a couple of days at Portrush, both Valley and Dunluce, Portstewart one morning early before playing Dunluce then RCD for three days and back to Belfast to play Malone G.C. for a couple more days. Other than Portstewart all the other courses were arranged as competitions between Gulph Mills and prearranged teams from the other clubs. All the competitions were preceded by fantastic lunches and followed by fantastic dinners that were as memorable as the competitions and courses themselves.