Ken Dye Courses

[D Moriarty]

Ken Dye has designed a few courses of note in New Mexico:  Pinion Hills (in the gawdforsaken hell hole of Farmington) and a new course called Pa 'ako Ridge. Also, he may have built a course in Texas (Painted Desert or something).

I played Pinion a few years back, and, overall, I was very impressed with the course, especially since it was apparently built for under 2 million dollars on a tough piece of land, and because it cost me about 15 bucks per round to play.  

Does anyone have an opinion on Ken Dye's work?  Has anyone played Pa-ako Ridge or any other of his courses?  

By the way, as most of you know, Pinion got a 5 star rating from GD, I imagine in part because it is such a bargain.  And I think Ken is not a relation of you-know-who.

[Matt_Ward]

D Moriarty:

I enjoy the work of Ken Dye. His work at Paa Ko Ridge is an awesome effort. The scenery and the the demands of the holes speak for themselves. Arguably, the best golf course in New Mexico and that includes Las Campanas.

Painted Dunes Desert GC in El Paso is also one of the better daily fee courses you can play at an exceptionally low rate.

How good is the course? The PGA Tour has staged qualifying rounds at the site. The course features a host of rumpled fairways (you think you were in Scotland) and the strategic elements are always present as soon you step on any tee.

One other factor -- the blowing wind. It's not uncommong when playing Painted Dunes that you can face a 3-4 club wind.

I can't add anything else to Pinon Hills except to say I understand they have faced recent vandalism on the course. That's a shame. A wonderful layout that is clearly the best buy in American golf. Last time I was there golf for the entire season was $400. That's not a misprint.

Relating to Ken Dye I have heard from a reliable source that his work on a NJ course which is considering using his services in upgrading itself has not been well received.

From my experiences I like what Ken produces and for those of you located in the western regions I urge you to play the three courses mentioned.

[D Moriarty]

Thanks for your response.  If I am ever in TX, I will be sure to play Painted Desert.  

With regard to Pa-ako Ridge, I have only seen pictures, but it looks like fun.  If I recall correctly, some of the the greens at Pinon Hills feature fairly distict multiple levels (usually three) with severe slopes between them.  From the photos, the greens at Pa-ako look like they may contain undulations that more naturally flow with the land.  Any thoughts on the greens?  Also, what did you think of the par 3 with the 100 yard green?  Does the middle portion of the green slope down from the front?

Too bad about the vandalism at Pinon.  Hope they can get the course back in shape.

Thanks again.

[Mike_Cirba]

Anyone in the San Antonio area looking for the best value in town should head north of the city to the Hill Country to play Ken Dye's municipal course called Cedar Creek.

It's on a very hilly site, and almost every hole is thoughtful and interesting.  It's a solid 5, perhaps a 6, on the Doak scale, for municipal course prices.  

It has about double the interest of Pecan Valley at half the price.

[Matt_Ward]

D Moriarty:

Even Ken Dye would admit that Paa Ko Ridge is probably his best design to date.

The greens at Paa Ko are not as savage / w. multiple levels as Pinon Hills. The contouring is more evenly blended.

The par-3 4th hole is a good hole that has a verrrrrry loooooong green. There are three distinct areas to hit to and when the pin is all the way back most people will need 3-4 more clubs.

Paa Ko Ridge needs more attention and as GD rating panelist I was especially happy to se it was selected Best New Affordable Public Course in the USA last year. The course has tremendous views and the golf isn't just a convenient add-on.

But the real shame is how underrated golf is in the Land of Enchantment. New Mexico offers quality layouts that are half the price of most in Arizona. Ask knowledgeable golf people in Texas where they play in the summer and most will say New Mexico.

It's affordable, scenic and getting better with each new design.

The putting surfaces

[Doug Wright]

Matt,

If Pa'ako Ridge is better than Pinon Hills that's pretty strong stuff! Pinon gets its rep in many respects because it is the best golf value anywhere, but I found it to be simply a beautifully routed course on a difficult site. Ken Dye used the elevation changes and the barrancas to perfection. Many of the greens are in my O Pinon over the top (tiering rivaled only by the ghastly greens at Bear Creek (Palmer/Seay)in Denver), but the greensites are superb.

And I do think New Mexico is a "hidden gem" of a state golfwise. UNM South is one of the oldest and strongest courses in the state, but it is being eclipsed by these newcomers.

Doug

PS Is Ken Dye related to Pete? For some reason I didn't think so.

[mm]

If Ken Dye is not shamelessly promoting his work as "Dye Designed" then he is obviously not a relative. Pete Dye relatives from uncles, brothers, sons and nephews (sometimes twice removed) make a healthy living from the promotion of the ""Pete Dye design philosophy"" (read, sharp slopes, pot bunkers, timber sleeper walls etc.) to the extent that most clients wouldnt know if theirs was a Pete Dye job or not.

Most of the Dye designed projects are not.

[Matt_Ward]

Ken Dye is no relation to the Pete Dye clan.

Doug:

Paa Ko Ridge is also one of the best tests you can play at affordable rates.

As I said before the greens are not as abruptly contoured as you find at Pinon Hills.

Stand on the 8th and 17th tees at Paa Ko Ridge and the views are just mesmermizing. The golf is not resort oriented whereby you can hit the ball anywhere with impunity.

Paa Ko Ridge, as I said before, offers the whole deal. You mentioned UNM and I agree it's a honey of a course when they DON'T overwater it which seems a daily ritual.

Isleta is also a good course and I hear another 18 is planned for the development. Islete is about 20-25 miles south of Albuquerque.

Have not had the opportunity to play Sonoma Ranch in Las Cruces, but I hear it's also very good. A Cal Olson design.

Anyone interested in quality golf with affordability should book a trip to New Mexico and include El Paso / re: Painted Dunes Desert GC. You won't be disappointed.

[D Moriarty]

When in New Mexico did any of you get up to Cochiti?  I hear they were lengthening / revising the course.  Any comments or impressions of the changes?

[peter_p]

Ckecked out website www.paakoridge.com  and I'll probably head down there next year if I work at NCAA West Regional (UNM).

Not a relation to Pete Dye, schooled by Joe Finger and based in Houston with Finger/Dye?Spann.

[Doug Wright]

D. Moriarty,

I haven't been to Cochiti but it got good reviews before the rework, which I think has been done for a year or so.  I'll check with one of my friends from the Land of Enchantment and if I have any info I'll pass it on.

Matt,

I played Isleta a couple of years ago. The 18 I played (27 holes) were pretty average--a lot of fairway mounding, greens and greensites nothing special. The course runs up and down a hillside with some flat holes running along the Rio Grande valley. It was pretty new when I played it, but I didn't see a whole lot of strategy on display. From what I could see I think I missed the best 9 of the three--the holes on the third 9 seemed to run more across the slopes than up and down.

I hope to get to ABQ in September and will definitely hit Pa'ako.

Doug

[Matt_Ward]

Doug: Thanks for your update.

Would like to know which specific nines you played at Isleta. I agree there is plenty of unnatural mounding. I just think the course is a decent place to play but not in the same league with UNM and most certainly Paa Ko.

A few other suggestions to keep in mind include the following:

The Links at Sierra Blanca in Ruidoso (course is in south central NM)

Taos CC in Taos is also fairly good.

Nicklaus has added another 18 at Las Campanas but I have not played it. I did play the original, but although it was fairly straightforward and in top shape it didn't offer the same uniqueness you will find at Paa Ko Ridge.

Enjoy your trip when you make it -- I'd enjoy hearing your comments.

[TDavis]

I played Pa Koo Ridge in June.
The golf course is very challenging and the fees are reasonable.
This design reminds me of Mike Strantz work -- lots of big, bold features, undulating greens, visually intimidating, and very risk reward.
As a North Carolinian, it was difficult to adjust to the increased distance at 7500 foot elevation.

[Scott_Burroughs]

TDavis,
   Where in NC are you?  I'm in the Raleigh area.  There's a few GCA contributers down in the Sandhills (one of them being the host to this site).

[Bear]

I don't know if anyone has heard of it, but Ken Dye also has a pretty solid design in metro atlanta called Cobblestone.  It was originally called The Boulder Course on Lake Acworth, but the Boulders resort in Carefree Arizona took a little offense to the name.  Regardless, the design is great.  There are plenty of holes with lake frontage and the design has great variety.  It plays about 6700 yards from the back at a par of 71.  Every kind of hole is represented, driveable par 4's, petite par 3's, long and brutal 4 pars, risk/reward par 5's... the whole shooting match.  And like so many other Ken Dye courses, this one is relatively cheap.  I have played both Cobblestone and Pinon Hills and I am hard pressed to pick a favorite.  Pinon might win simply because I have never seen nor heard of it being in poor condition.  Cobblestone, in its own right, is well conditioned, but doesn't drain very well after rain.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Here is their web site. http://www.fingerdyespann.com/
Many good images of Paa-Ko, Pinon
and others.