What is Bob Charles like as an architect?

[Mark_Huxford]

BarnyF, I think Ran and the others were basically dismayed at the lack of any 'line of charm' as Max Behr would say. Everything has been intentionally designed in a linear fashion and no attempt has been made to intergrate features into their surroundings or to imitate nature in any way. The hole is devoid of strategy.

Just imagine what Doak would be able to do with that same property. Those palms for example, which have been planted along the edges of the fairway. They will only block views as much as they will block golf shots in the years to come.

Bob Charles is one of the nicest men you will ever meet but he is sadly not an Architect. He is the only major champion ('63 British) from New Zealand and holds many course records throughout the country including my home course Paraparaumu Beach with a 62.

This golfing prowess gets him the design jobs
rather than his design skill or the merit of his previous courses. He was recently one of two men asked to consult on the proposed changes to Paraparaumu early in 2000 - the other was Michael Clayton. Despite being somewhat of an expert on Melbourne courses by Alister MacKenzie and Alex Russell, Michael was told his views were not shared by the club when he disagreed with what they wanted to do.

Charles on the other hand was complimentary about the changes which were to add length and "restore Paraparaumu to being more of a true links". Today PB is longer but less interesting. It is more like a war zone than a links with it's great beauty stripped and challenge diluted.  

Mark,

[richard]

You know, I have never been much of a fan of Mike Clayton since I witnessed a pretty ordinary dummy spit at a Qld tournament a few years ago.

However, the more stories I hear about his design ideas, the more i'm convinced he does have a pretty sharp brain in there somewhere.

Be interesting to see what eventuates from the Tasmanian project with Doakey.

[Mark_Huxford]

Rich, I'm not sure what Ran meant but RM probably is the best course within 14,000km of Auckland. It's only 2,625km away. Merion is 14,042km away and Pine Valley a little more. St Andrews is definitely out of the running as the home of golf is a whopping 17,872km away from Formosa Auckland Country Club.

;-)

Mark,

[Paul_Daley]

Royal Melbourne is an example of MacKenzie at his near-best; alongside Crystal Downs and Cypress Point. Ran is right about the influence of wind, and that appies to all the Melbourne sandbelt golf courses. Most of the top Australian courses are also found by the coast and that in part explains the long list of great Australian performances in the Open Championship.

When MacKenzie laid out the West Course in 1926 - there was no talk of an East Course then - he did so along links lines, and indeed he referred to R/Melb ... "as essentially a links that grows on one."

One of the most contentious current issues at R/Melb is to remove, or not remove, the tea-tree that lines many of their fairways.

One theory is that by doing so, it would play more like what Dr MacK envisaged among the the oceans of sandy furrows. Again,
this is another reason why golf clubs must preserve their dusty old black&white photos that line clubhouse hallways; to aid restorative processes if they so decide to go down that track.

Rich: I was speaking to Tom Doak recently about your very point, and he mentioned that as the pros are usually only familiar with the Composite Course, commercial realities dictate ranking the Composite course. No doubt, this principle applies to a few courses in the States. I gathered that Tom felt this was regrettable, but inevitable.

As Jason mentioned, the Composite Course is open for members once a year, but just recently, a company called Ulimited Golf has scored a coup by securing a lunch/golf/dinner package on the Composite Course for approx $350-380 later in the year. As expected, tee-times filled up quickly and the day is now sold out. Pleasingly, many of the participants are visitors. Hopefully, it will become an annual event; if so, GCA devotees could time their trips to Melbourne accordingly.  

When MacKenzie designed Royal Melbourne he incorporated 10-12 really strong two-shot holes, given the equipment of the day. By comparison to what has taken place at
other classics around the world, the West Course today is only a few hundred metres longer than when it opened for play in 1931. Perhaps more than anything, this helps justify its timeless position in world golf.

On this basis, in the manner it has remained stable, resisted mood swings on Council (RMGC speak for Committee), golf fashion trends, who knows, if it was rated by the big magazines as a single entity, it may just top the charts? Admittedly, the odd 'benign' day can give golfers foolish notions of exaggerated ability (a La TOC without wind) but usually, the West is awesome and justifiably NO.1 in Australia.

Jason: Tuesday is still good for pasta. I agree entirely that modern technology has had relatively little impact on RM East and West; usually, because it is windy, and yes, those magnificent greens serving as 2nd line defences. Brevity can leave things up in the air; I was trying to make the point that modern technology (can) but usually (doesn't) impact as negatively here as it does to other courses.

I hate to shatter a myth about the East Course containing 6 holes on the Composite Course. Some new information pertaining to the mix between Alex Russell's and MacKenzie's holes is being released in the Sandbelt Book - 14 November, 2001. I am keen to tell all, but my book partner will take me to task if I spill the beans. The secret has laid buried for nearly 70 years!

[Doc]

Was the question Ray Charles or
Bob Lohmann?

Same thing to me.

[Ran Morrissett]

Paul,

Are you supportive of RM's removal of the tea trees? I am! The resulting vistas across the rolling sand dunes would truly be awe inspiring. Some along the perimeter (like left of 12) could stay but the interior ones should come out. That is very exciting news indeed!

As for your comment that "Royal Melbourne is an example of MacKenzie at his near-best; alongside Crystal Downs and Cypress Point", I wonder if Crystal Downs is really in the same class as those two?

RM - West vs CD

1. CD 1 up
2. CD 1 up
3. all square
4. RM 1 up
5. RM 1 up
6. RM 2 up
7. RM 2 up (probably being too generous to CD)
8. RM 1 up
9. all square
10. RM 1 up
11. RM 2 up
12. RM 3 up
13. RM 2 up
14. RM 1 up
15. all square
16. RM 1 up
17. RM 2 up
18. RM 3 up

The scale of RM gives it a small but distinct edge over CD, at least in my book.

All three courses would be on the bus that holds the world's top dozen courses, it's just that RM and CPC are at the front and CD is at the back.

Cheers,

[ForkaB]

Ran

Mea culpa.  Thanks to Mark I realise that I misread your post and had assumed you were saying 14,000 MILES rather than 14,000 KM, as you did.  Yet another small step in the campaign to have Gib stop calling me "Brains."

Sheepishly (appropriate for a NZ thread )

Rich

[Paul_Daley]

Ran: With RMGC, it is very much like shooting fish in a barrel: with trees it
is great, without the trees, I feel it would be even better! Yes, I do support the removal of trees there, and also at another favourite of mine - Barwon Heads. BH could be simply incredible.

Perhaps it is a question of degrees:

(1) Total removal of trees
          vs
(2) 50-70% removal sufficient for vista restoration

At RMGC the trees naturally aid framing and beautification purposes. However, tea-tree is not indigenous and was planted in the early days.

Wholesale tree removal could only take place with a proviso: replacement with low-lying heathy scrub to penalise the wayward when taking on the 'bold' line. Such action would ensure the maintenance of the strategic architectural excellence of RM, but not at the expense of the vistas.

In the 70 years between 1905 and 1975, only two greenkeepers looked after RM - Mick Morcom and Claude Crockford. It is part of club folk-lore that Crockford in particular, (at his own discretion) frequently cut down tea-trees and never told anyone ...  in essence, keeping the glorious vistas alive. Today, with the tree-hugging brigade so prominent, Jim Porter, the current superintendent would be lynched if ever suspected of such discretionary activity. And yet, prominent people within the club are pushing for a revival and keeping the chat alive.

I agree, RMGC is better than C/Downs. What a great bus with Cypress and R.M up front, CD at rear.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Don't know who said it, and am too lazy to look back, but the very specific talk of design features, like the angle of the green, etc. is what I enjoy here.

You go Ran!  Liked your thoughts, but didn't notice any mention of the double hazard - IE placing a strip bunker in front of a perfectly good ocean.  Seems to me the ocean is ok as a hazard, unless, and only unless, this is a long par 4, but really not even then. Can't imagine Pebble 8 being any better with a long strip bunker.

I, too assumed this was a par 5...and if this is a long 4, then the green angle, narrow opening, etc really is wrong for the long iron approach.  The average player - and even some quite good ones - would have problems fashioning a shot to a shallow green.

If Ran is correct about the crosswind, I wouldn't have bunkered both sides.  IMHO, this type of "bottleneck bunkering" - to use Langord't term for it, is best used on  short holes (par 4 or 5) playing downwind, allowing the player to concentrate on accuracy.  On a reachable par 5, I suppose it could go into the wind, to make someone hit it hard with accuracy, but not a crosswind.  

The narrow fairway with bunkers make more sense on a shortish par 5, although they are not mandatory. I think they are best used only once or twice per course (shameless formula) I don't know if I would put it on an ocean hole, perhaps saving the beauty of the white sand for a more non descript portion of the site.

Would most think that the ocean front site cries out for a more rustic look than portrayed here?  I also see some potential for the green to go bottom left of the photo, where the "alternate fairway" if it is that, is. As it is used, it is just a lateral hazard, and not a carry hazard, similar to the par 3 in the background.

And, Ran is right - even though I am not against framing your average green to improve views, you have to think this is the one area that a syline green would be best.  In Charles defense, he probably didn't do the planting - greens committees are the same everywhere it seems! Also, I qualify the remarks with the knowledge that I don't know the entire course.

Jeff

[Ran Morrissett]

Jeff,

What would you do with a cliff top site like that? Based on the 2nd photo, it looks like it may be essentially flat on top. If that is the case, while it may be a spectacular site, I would hardly call it ideal (but that is no excuse for the architect having made such a meal of it).

Cheers,

[Neal_Meagher]

Jeff,

I don't think that it is an alternate fairway at all, what with that angular mowing pattern.  It truly looks to be the world's most extravagant turf nursery, see on the left side, it's as though they are already cutting sod.

[Mark_Huxford]

I believe it's an area that was prepared for watching the Americas Cup yacht racing. Something similar was prepared at Gulf Habour also.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ran,

I would find a point to put a tee on, so the golfer would gaze into and play over the cliffs, rather than have them on the back side where you literally have to go lean over to see there beauty.  A water hazard behind a dogleg is the weakest position it can be in as well. Again, without knowing the full routing problem, it is hard to critique, but if I had an ocean front site, I would not use the coast line for a sod nursery, and then place the holes inland as depicted here!  

A tee on the sod nursery/yacht viewing area playing over the ocean to the same green, or better yet to one right on the point where the next par 3 tee is would be stronger.

I know its flat, but even at that, more definition, or distinction, if you will, could have been had if the interior areas were not watered equally and/or planted in some type of grass.

Jeff

[Brian Clark]

Bob Charles has recently designed a new course with a housing development in Christchurch (NZ), called Clearwater. It is apparently quite artificial in appearance and not something you would go out of your way to play, especially as there are a number of solid layouts already in the area.

One of his earlier (first?) courses was a development on the Coromandel Peninsula called Matarangi Links. The first nine constructed was very good and low key, being built over undulating links type terrain.

I too enjoy GCA for the type of informative comments and analysis like those made above and here is some brief information that may help explain (not justify) and put into context why Formosa is as it is.

Although Formosa is not and never will be one of the great golf courses of the world, it is not quite as bad as the impression given by the photographs.

--It is a resort course.
--The land was previously farmland, is clay, and nowhere close to the ideal for building a golf course on.
--Part of the designers brief was to make it the longest course in NZ.
--The property slopes towards the sea, creating expansive views which you cannot escape from.
--My understanding is that the palm trees were the owners idea to give the course a 'Hawaiian' feel to it.
--The course covers a lot of land and two shorter courses could realistically have been made instead of one.
--The photos are of the par 5 12th hole.
--The hole plays slightly uphill.
--The area to the left of the hole is not an alternate fairway or a sod nursery, and wasn't used for viewing the Americas Cup (this was held on the other side of the volcano shaped island). In fact this area cannot be seen from the fairway at all.
--There is a deep gully behind the 12th green which would have required a lot of fill to make a green site near the cliff possible.
--The trees along the cliff are pohutakawas and are protected.
--The prevailing wind is a left to right crosswind.
--The par 3 11th hole has want I imagine a skyline green to be.
--The 13th hole sort of creates vistas, with the green site allowing views out to the sea framed by trees. It is a horizon green.

The course is unashamedly a resort course with a very artificial look to it. There is nothing comparable in NZ visually (palm trees, waterfalls, the use of rocks, loads of sand, big and bold…), so from a business angle it has some good selling points.

While architecturally it is not of the highest quality there are a few good holes and some good concepts for holes that don't quite come off, particularly with regard to the greens complexes (wide, narrow greens; terraces across greens; hog back ridges; boomerang greens; very small and very large greens).

Generally it can be said that the design errs on the side of the extreme rather than the subtle.