Montebello

[Ben C. Dewar]

I just spent the past couple of days playing the course with a couple of friends.

I was wondering who knew which renovations were being done this coming year?

My thoughts and photos will follow.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ben, i take it you are talking of Stanley
Thompson's Montebello and not Max Behr's once interesting public gem that was remodeled two years ago here in nearby Montebello, California correct?

(Of course you are! )

Montebello Municpal slowly decayed away over the years, and further decayed out of existence by the award winning team of David Rainville and Gary Bye--Those architects who build conventional golf courses here in So Cal.  I almost forgot to add, and MacKenzie specialists. Ugh!)

[Ben C. Dewar]

Tommy,
Yes Montebello in Quebec.  The Thompson work between Ottawa and Montreal.  I used to spend a lot of time at the resort with my family but have not been there in years.

A great track, and a really deceiving course at only 6,250 from the tips.  Really enjoyable course though.
Ben

[username]

the thing i still remember about that course was when i was on that par 5 on the front nine, i believe, where you are on a super-elevated tee.....the view is quite spectacular, but watching me try to get the tee into the rock hard ground is another site altogether...

[Craig_Rokke]

That was a definitely a fun hole. I think my whole group boldly tried to clear the trees
in search of a shortcut. How about the par
3, which, if my memory serves, calls for
a shot to a green which is literally perched on the side of the mountain.

[jglenn]

Ben,

We'd have to get a game together next time you're in the Montreal area.  I'm anxious to read your comments regarding Montebello.

As far as the renovations proposed for this fall, I can tell you what is being looked at these days:

Holes 1 and 2 will be eliminated.  The new first tee will be on the hillock in front of the first landing area, and will play down the  existing driving range next to the 18th hole, into the forest to the right of the 17th green.  The new second hole will be a par 5 playing back along the property line, parallel to the existing second, but about 150 right of it.  The tee of the third hole will be relocated to the right of the second green, up the hill.  The old second hole (and an area to immediatly right of it) will become a more "full-sized" practice range.

Hope this helps.

[Ben C. Dewar]

Craig and User.
That is the fourth hole, I bombed a three around the corner with a draw and had a 7 iron in. A great hole, really great view of the hotel.  The view from the ninth green is great too.

Jeremy,
I was hoping to get down to play RM before the season was out, but know it seems like a tough chance.  I will be in Montreal in October at some point so I hope the weather holds out.
As for the changes, I will be sad if the second hole is gone.  I think that is a great hole, requires you to really shape the ball, and the green is one of the most interesting Thompson greens I have seen.  The greensite also reminds me of the 3rd at Cataraqui, another favourite of mine.

As mentioned the fourth is quite dramatic, it follows a semi-Redan hole.  Five is a long uphill par four which another great driving hole.

Six is the drop shot par three, really pretty, not really that difficult, so long as you leave it below the hole.

Eight is a great risk reward short par four.  I went for the green one day (playing skins) and made it, the second day I laid into the fairway.  The green complex is so difficult that the 90 yard wedge shot is none to easy.

Nine is as dramatic a par three as six.  Over a valley with a huge rock face short of the uphill green.  The bunker behind the green is death, putting is really the only play.

11 is another great driving hole.  The approach is to a small incredibly deceiving green.  Great hole, though a buddy was blocked out twice and might disagree.

14 is the great golf hole on the course.  A sweeping downhill par four that has trouble all over it and a great green.

15 is the most difficult green complex on the course, and there are lots to choose from.  This helps because technology has neutered the hole a little bit.

18 is good finisher, though again a little short with modern technology.

Overall, I thought the course was one of the most demanding 6,250 yard course I have played.  The greens were a little slow, though if they were any faster, some of the green complexes would have been a nightmare.

You certainly cannot lose focus on the tee shots as they truly set it all up.  I really enjoyed getting back here.

I will get some pictures up in the next few days.

[T_MacWood]

Jeremy
Do you think the work of Stanley Thompson is appreciated more south of the border, than in his native land? It seems like a long line of Canadian architects have taken turns altering his courses.

[Ben C. Dewar]

Tom,
I know you addressed this to Jeremy, but I thought I would chime in and I hope Jeff Mingay will too.

Thompson is revered in Canada, most anyone who plays golf knows his work.  I have played many of his courses, and in the case of Cape Breton Highlands, the renovations have been received extremely well.  

Furthermore, in the case of many of his courses, many par fives are 470, and in the interest of maintaining par the tees have been pushed back.  With the odd exception I think they have maintained Thompson's spirit.

One more reason that would lead me to disagree, the designers who have done the redesign rarely get credit, and Thompson's name generally comes to the forefront again.
Regards

[Jeff_Mingay]

Interest in Thompson and his work has risen tremendously in Canada in recent years. The Stanley Thompson Society, established in 1998, is doing a great deal of research and promotion in an attempt to educate golfers about Thompson's architecture and encourage restoration and preservation. In much the same manner as the Ross, Tillinghast and MacKenzie groups.

Unfortunately, these efforts come a few years too late. Much of Thompson's work has indeed been altered; in most cases, for the wrong reasons: such as the work planned for Montebello, described above by Jeremy.

Now, I invite Jeremy to correct me if I'm wrong, but those particular alterations planned for Montebello sound as though they are being made simply to create a "full size" practice facility (!). That might be described as a poor excuse for change.

Curiously, most renovations to Thompson courses over the years were carried out by men who apprenticed under him: ie. Robbie Robinson, Howard Watson and Bob Moote. And now, today, McBroom and Carrick (who apprenticed under Robinson), and Cooke (who apprenticed under Watson) continue the trend.

Of course, they ALL pay "lip service" to Thompson and his work in the media. But, oddly, a comprehensive Thompson restoration -- comparable to the very best Ross restoration work done in the USA in recent years -- is yet to be completed.  

I find most work on Thompson courses these days involves reconstructing bunkers in a "Thompson style"; which immediately comes with a hefty price tag. While "new" bunkers are immediately impressive to view, it's green surface expansions, alterations/expansions to fairway patterns and tree cutting that will return Thompson's strategic brilliance to aged layouts. Too often, the latter work -- which should ideally be completed first, for relatively minimal expense -- has not been done.

[Ben C. Dewar]

Jeff,
How are you doing?

I think that the reasoning for moving number two could be the fact that the third tee is so close to the green, plus the hook lies in the fairway take lots of shots into those tees.  So safety might play apart, but otherwise I agree.

Kind Regards
Ben

[Jeff_Mingay]

I'm fine, Ben. I still haven't heard the details about your round at Wolf Creek with Whitman? You didn't even make a GCA post about the golf course!

If indeed Cooke and Assoc. are doing the Montebello work, I'd love to hear the rationale behind the planned alterations, Jeremy. In fact, I think many of us would.

Cheers,

[jglenn]

Without going into the details of the proposals yet - if for no other reasons than those details have yet to be worked out - the changes we are proposing are based, in part, on the following.

The Chateau Montebello property had originaly been planned to be a residential development golf course.  Thompson's plan of the golf course (I believe dated 1931) shows the golf course sitting within a massive residential development complex.  Today, very little of this has actually been sold and built.  Essentially, houses are seen to the right of the first three holes, and a few more near the ninth and twelfth holes.

It is very unlikely that any houses will ever get built in many of these areas, so the decision was made to take up the land previously given to the housing, and use it for the golf course.  Actually, the first and second holes, we felt, were rather cramped, being too close to the housing, and didn't seem to sit well in their topography.  The first hole was a rather weak opening (some would say "Mickey Mouse"), and the second hole is very penalising to average players, with the crested fairway judged awkward and unfriendly.  As such, rather than remaining constrained within the existing routing, when appropriate we felt it helpful to let the golf course "breathe" a little more.

Adding a "full-sized" practice range to the golf course was also an important objective to the overall plan.

The land far to the right of the existing second hole seemed to be very well suited for a great par five, and the existing range, with a hillside on the left, has the potential of becoming a much stronger opening hole.  Of course, this frees up the existing second hole (and a large, flatish area immediately right of it) for the practice range.  And, finally, the third hole's tee complex would be moved from an un-impressive "bottom of a bowl" area onto a hillside, above the green, with a far more dramatic view of the Ottawa River.

All in all, we're killing four birds with one stone.  I have no doubt that the new first three holes will improved, as will the practice range.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Thanks for the detailed response, Jeremy.

When is the work to commence? For, I'd love to see "the before", in order to be able to compare it to "the after".

That is, as someone interested in classical golf course architecture...

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jeremy,

I will add a "gut feeling" comment...

Montebello has "worked" for 70 years, so you guys -- at Cooke and Assoc. -- have a task before you.

QUESTION:

Has Cooke & Assoc. ever worked in a similar situation to this -- adding two new holes to an existing classical golf course? If so, have the resulting new holes melded properly with the rest of the golf course, in your opinion (however bias)?

You should really get Graham to participate on this site  

[T_MacWood]

Jeremy
I reckon that Howard Watson, Norman Woods, Robby Robinson, Bill Robinson and Robert Moote all felt they were 'improving' the work of Stanley Thompson, what makes you believe that you will succeed where your predecessors failed?