Yale ... The Responses Continue

[Matt_Ward]

Just wanted to tip my hat to Pat Mucci for his fine letter (Golfweek / Sept. 15) in responding to David Paterson's response to the original article by Anthony Pioppi (July 14).

Yale is a sensational design, but you have to ask yourself what is the game plan by those in charge.

All I see is defensive postures instead of clear admissions that Yale has been really tardy in keeping this treasure type course in the proper conditoining framework on a consistent basis.

Hats off to Pat for his final words ... "Beholders of the course appreciate Yale for what it was, not for what it has become, and ... without constructive criticism, progress is impossible.

Yale has more $$ than most third world countries. For such a layout to be so inconsistent in its presentation is beyond words. It's time for Yale to understand that there are plenty of people who really love the course and offer such comments in the spirit that many of them get moving instead of delaying what should have been done years ago.

If education is important at Yale it's time for those with dunce caps at the golf course to wake up, smell the coffee and get busy.

No one is suggesting that Yale be similar in shape to ANGC. But, when you have ratty fairways, spotty and unlevel tees and shoulder turn greens you have major issues. Pat is right on target ... "Public courses offer their golfers far better conditions than exist at Yale."

No more excuses ... let's see the action and get moving in reclaiming a real jewel among American courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

Thanks for the kind words.

Golfweek left out a critical part of my response, the part that dealt with Dave Paterson calling Yale obsolete.

I indicated that Yale's architeture was far from obsolete, that the architecture was both brilliant and timeless, as evidenced by the Eden, Redan, Alps, Short, Biaritz, Road and other hole, which continue to serve as the gold standard.

I have no vested interest in Yale,
no position to defend, only objective thoughts with regard to improving and restoring this wonderful golf course.

Others may be defensive because they were part of the process that resulted in the deterioration of the course, or because they haven't done anything to improve the course.

I see Yale as a unique marvel, that only needs some tender love and care, and true restoration work.

[Ran Morrissett]

How unusual for Pat to speak his mind  

[GeoffreyC]

I was very happy to see Pat's reply to Dave Paterson's letter.  I wish the FULL reply had been published or if edited they left in the part about the architecture and left out the green grass part.  

Too many think the issue is MAINLY playing conditions (grass, green speeds, mowing patterns etc.).  These are more easily addressed.  The issue of a former director of golf thinking the course is obsolete and the horrible work done to RENOVATE the bunkers and slopes around them is the heart of the issue here. Not the grass or green speeds.

The other published letter (along with Pat's) in that issue from a Yale member goes directly to this point.  That letter by John Godley states that "the greens and fairways are excellent" the past three years (that's when the irrigation system was put in). He states "half the bunkers have been restored (the second half are scheduled for the fall). Many evergreen trees that had been planted 20 years ago have been removed.  I believe the article by Anthony Pioppi is incorrect, and is a disservice to those who are dedicated to this effort."

Well, this guy has been around for 5 decades and I'm sure he knows nothing of Raynor/MacDonald or golf course architecture.  He has green grass and sand under his ball.  Sounds like a success to me too  . That's what we face from membership unfortunately.  

[Tim_Weiman]

Guys:

Yale probably ranks as one of my very favorite courses and it is disheartening to hear anything going wrong with the place.

However, protecting this treasure will likely require some quiet diplomacy.

With whom?  I don't know.

But Yale must have some equivalent to Princeton's Ernie Ransome.

GeoffreyC: Does any name come to mind?  Are there some potential friends out there?

[GeoffreyC]

Tim

YES.  It is in good hands. While members like John Godley  who wrote that letter probably form the majority opinion, there is a methodical in depth plan to restore as many of the features from the 1934 aerial (posted here on GCA previously) as practical. George Bahto has been instrumental in making these details available to the committee. We have our guardian angel who has been mobilized to the task. He is MUCH more than just a source of $$$ and fund raising.  I hope that Roger Rulewich is up to the task and I wish him success.

[Tim_Weiman]

Geoffrey C:

Great!  I hope things go well.

[BillV]

As a participant in the now infamous outing, I can only hope that the future of Yale is secured.  It seems on tenuous ground. I would visit her on my proverbial time machine trip to the 1920's.

I take this thread to point out to Matt since it is his thread, that I would like to give Yale a 9, but current circumstances prevent it and I hope he understands.    It is still  pretty darned good even in its deteriorated state.

[Matt_Ward]

BillV:

I agree IF Yale got its act together the POTENIAL is there for a 9. However, as it was pointed out to Mark Fine and myself about Running Deer the standing of any course is how it ACTUALLY is.

Yale, for all the times (6) that I have played it is truly an eyesore given all the greatness that lies on the grounds. The leadership (is that what they are called?) is completely clueless. I regret such a strong tone but let's face it -- Yale is the modern version of Bethpage Black.

Years ago the Black had rubber mats and all the other signs of a course that was run into the ground by people who can't even balance their own checkbooks let alone run a golf course.

I know there are people on GCA who believe the role of conditioning is overdone. I don't. I believe given today's machinery and expertise there is no real reason why courses can't be maintained in a manner that is conducive in playing the game.

I'm not suggesting ANGC conditions but Yale is horrible. I know of many muni courses that look like US Open venues compared to Yale.

It's clear that the golf course is not high on the priority list of the University. To use the expression ... "we have met the enemey and it is us."

BillV: I would grade Yale as no more than a 6 today given all the wonderful design features. The POTENTIAL is clearly there, but until there is real committment the discussions about Yale will be nothing more than conjecture and speculation on "what could be."

When you can't cut the fairways properly, when tees have more slope than the greens, when you have more dirt than sand in the bunkers and when you have to make a full shoulder turn to get the ball to the hole you have problems.

Yale is a course that could be so much more. I'm just tired of the lame brain excuses from people who are affiliated with a place that has made its reputation in higher learning and been such dunces in the mishandling of such a masterpiece.

[Lou_Duran]

I have never played Yale or Stanford, another highly regarded university course.  I have played the highly regarded Scarlet course at Ohio State many times over my eight years there, and invariable conditions were very substandard.  The usual excuses given were: 1) too much play, 2) too little money, 3) the university's maintenance department was responsible for maintaining the golf course and a negative competitive situation existed between it and the athletic department (which ran the sales side of the business- the pro shop, green fees, range, carts, etc.), 4) the greens had a clay base and had not been rebuilt since construction in the late 1930s.  Surprisingly, when it was time for the NCAA or even the Kepler Invitational, course conditions improved considerably.

I think that the problem with collegiate golf courses goes much deeper.  I believe that many in academia, particularly in  liberal arts faculty, have an intense dislike of athletic departments.  Football and basketball, to a lesser extent, are large net cash flow generators and can withstand the attack.  Golf courses which derive low green fees from students and faculties, and bargain membership dues from alumni probably break even or may even loose money.  With considerable competition for funds including the requirement to put women sports on equal or proportional footing with men's, golf courses, including the ones considered gems, are being greatly underfunded.  I think that the fact that Stanford seriously considered developing some of the golf course into student housing is a clear indication of the low regard that many in academia have for the game.

I agree with Matt that conditioning (and relatively flat tees) is very important.  When a well designed golf course is in poor shape, it is particulary regretable.  Perhaps the model for university golf courses is Oklahoma State's Karsten Creek.  
There, the coach raised the money from donors and he maintains significant control.  Unfortunately, it is my understanding that green fees are in the $125-$150 range, and students do not get much of a discount.  In my opinion, this is not a university golf course, but a CC for the golf team and rich contributors.  A better solution might to for influential alumni and benefactors who love golf to put pressure on university presidents or by earmarking their contributions to specific golf course initiatives.  JMHO.

[Karsten Creek questions]

Lou Duran,
Do you have any more details on how much the Karsten Creek Course cost to build and how much Tom Fazio got for design fees?

[BillV]

Yale suffers from many factors just now. The design is excellent.  Better than say the Knoll which also has some great features.

The two come out nearly even due to all these factors.  Agreed.

As for Stanford, it is a good course, but gets goodie points because of Thomas (Poor George, all his courses gone)as I see it.  What if Ed Carmen designed it?    (just kiddin'). I don't have my notes, but 5-6 seems my recollection, no higher.

If Karsten Creek truly costs $135, that is a shame.  I used to play the Univ of Florida course (Ross) for $35 a quarter.  The University of South Florida course used to cost me $8 a round.  Those are university courses for students.

[GeoffreyC]

I play Yale almost every week.  I've played it under every weather condition imaginable except snow.  We can play the ball down without a problem and without "unfair" lies from turf conditions. If anything its too soft too often from overuse of the 3 year old irrigation system. I consider the irrigation system a mixed blessing at Yale until our savior new superintendent comes in and uses it correctly.  The tees are NOT uneven.  They present a reasonable/equitable starting point for each hole.  The untouched bunkers are hazards and sand is sometimes packed and lies are questionable.  The (horrible/out of character) renovated bunkers on the front 9 do have sand under the ball and are much easier to play from. I wish everyone would concentrate more on saving the architecture rather than complain about turf conditions.

I can stand the conditions of play MUCH more than I could stand the raping of Raynors brilliant architecture on a landmark course. I hope the architecture is preserved from here on out and given a better budget that I understand is also included in the new master plan for restoration I hope the new superintendent will have the grass in shape as well.

Bill- the Knoll has some amazing architecture that yielded several great holes but I don't think its the equal of Yale by any means. The topography alone at Yale makes for a unique experience. Yale is one of a kind.

I called the Stanford golf course home for almost 5 years.  The student fee was $2.50
It was always in really good shape and the design is first rate. Having come from Bethpage Black as home during my undergraduate days to Stanford, I was a bit spoiled and realized just how good Bethpage was. Stanford (golf course) is not quite in the same league as Yale (golf course). Of course academics and sports teams are another matter       Stanford always I believe had expensive membership fees for non-university members and probably derived enough money from this source to make a difference in conditioning. Perhaps Yale needs to think of doing this as well.

[BillV]

Geoff  

Yale is far superior architecturally and the site is unmatched.  I want to see it up to snuff as much as possible.  (I'M TRYING TO HELP!)  NGLA, one of these days, will make you break into tears over Yale.  

[BillV]

Geoff  

Yale is far superior architecturally and the site is unmatched.  I want to see it up to snuff as much as possible.  (I'M TRYING TO HELP!)  NGLA, one of these days, will make you break into tears over Yale.  

[Craig Van Egmond]

The green fees at Karsten Creek are now $175 - $225 and the reason is they don't want the public to play it.  I spoke with one of the members who said they had 11,000 rounds last year and they thought that was too high. It is a beautiful course, one of my favorites and I think if they could make it private they would.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Karsten Creek now costs $175 - $225 to play for the public, about $85 if you know a member.

I spoke recently with one member and they said that the course doesn't want the public to play. He mentioned that they had 11,000 rounds last year and the management thought that was too much.  

It really is a fantastic course, the magazine Golf Travel and Leisure just rated it as the #1 college golf course.

There must be a reason why they don't go fully private, or else I think they would.

They are have the grand opening of the new club house this weekend and hosting the men's NCAA championships in 2003.

[Paul Turner]

Yale is a comfortable 8 in its current condition.  The condition of a course is way down the ladder of importance for me. And I thought the greens were fine on the GCA visit. At least the course was firm!

Properly restoring the bunkers and felling some trees are, by far, the most important issues.  Then just mow the grass a bit lower.

[dickcesana]

Hats off to A.Pioppi for getting everyone thinking how much better YALE could be with some TLC.

[Tom_Egan]

To: Geoffrey C.

Could you please tell me how to find the aerial photo of Yale which you mentioned as being located on the GCA website?  Thanks.

[Matt_Ward]

GeoffreyC:

Think of conditioning as you would salt, pepper and other spices -- their purpose is to ENHANCE the overall taste of the food.

That's how I view conditioning. When people say it doesn't matter then I just shake my head and say fine ... go enjoy playing off rubber mats, take shoulder turns on the greens and play from tees shaped like pitching mounds!

That's what Bethpage Black was for years, repeat, FOR YEARS!!!!

Yale, has no excuse whatsoever period. End of story! Gees, you could get three alumni alone and they could bankroll the whole operation! The total endowment at Yale could finance the operations of many countries today.

Conditioning should be appropriate given the budget a facility has to work with. That's all I am saying. For a first rate Seth Raynor design to be consistently presented in such woeful conditions year after year is beyond excuses. I am not advocating by any means ANGC conditions. But if people continually harp about Yale's potential I urge them to be consistent when other GCA contributors say the same thing about other courses.

GeoffreyC -- conditioning is not the equal of architectural aspects that are intrinsic to holes and the manner by which the 18 holes come together. But we cannot continue to wax on without a full accounting of all aspects and conditioning is a part of that ledger. Bethpage Black had to deal with this for years before others in the golf community finally came around because of significant conditioning upgrades. Yale can do it -- the question is do they really want to do it!

Finally, I agree Yale does have the edge over The Knoll, by virtue of the better land. I give Yale a 6 -- Knoll to me is about 5. Also, it's time The Knoll started to ask the same questions about conditioning. The course is always about average and nothing more. A little more effort and I can easily see the course among the state's top ten public courses. We at The Jersey Golfer had it #11 in our last ranking. I always enjoy the first three holes and the 18th is a gem of a closer!

BillV: Loved you line about "what if Ed Carman designed it." Touche!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Turner,

You didn't object to the narrowness of the fairways ? The mandate of those repsonsible for maintainance at YALE that golfers can only play the holes one way, TARGET GOLF, as defined by them.

Those narrow fairways are merely a budget saving device.  The fairways were designed and intended to play wall to wall ?

Conditioning isn't limited to the height of the grass.  Conditioning, maintainance, or rather the lack of, has drastically changed the architectual values and play of the holes and the golf course.

The failure to mow the greens to their foot/fill pads have caused vital strategic pin locations to be lost.  So many greens are missing this important aspect of their design, which changes the results of the proper and improper play of a particular shot, and it limits a golfer's options of play.

The failure to properly mow fairways deprives the golfer of risk/reward possibilities, replacing them with risk/risk possibilities for a well played shot, as originally intended by the architect.  
The 6th hole is a perfect example.  
Hitting your drive close to the left hand creek should reward the golfer with an improved angle and shorter distance into the green, instead, the golfer is left in deep rough, while a poorly hit, or bail-out drive receives the relative reward.

Dave Paterson's labeling of the golf course and its holes as OBSOLETE, says all that needs to be said about his ability to understand and/or discern good architecture from bad, let alone the brilliant architecture of YALE, which has been sitting there staring him in the face for all these years.

Some of the changes to the greens,(#2 & #3) should be reversed if possible, as should many of the changes to the bunkers.

Yale needs that concerned Alumnus, not just to fund a TRUE restoration, but to properly oversee and guarantee a TRUE restoration, including the altering of the poor maintainance practices that exist today.

The mandate to any architect should be:
Forget your design preferences, restore the holes based on the photographic and documented evidence, as Raynor had originally designed the course. (elasticity of tees permited) And, get George Bahto to invalueably assist you.

[George_Bahto]

Matt - RE: The Knoll

#1 - The Knoll should even be mentioned in the same breath as Yale

#2 - when were you last at the Knoll - the conditions are excellent and improving by the month - our super is from PV - it appears we will begin a bunker restoration very soon asnd if they let me take the bunkers down to their original depth it will be outstanding - I agree we've had a bad reputation for years because of the yrs Bloomfield College owned it and then during the years it was financially raped by the, now imprisoned, Township leadership.

It is the finest condition it has been since her glory days of the 50s and 60s.

otherwise, fellas, thanks for the kind words on the other subject

[George_Bahto]

Patrick - thanks from all of us for responding to the letter to the editor from the university

I have to stay out of it all for now

[GeoffreyC]

Matt

No one is arguing that conditioning isn't instrumental in
1- enjoying a round of golf to the fullest
2- getting the playing conditions the architect intended the course to play.

However, had you come up to Yale to see the work done to the front 9 you would understand my point about the priority of maintaining the architectural integrity of Raynors design.  It has been raped and it needs to be fixed first.

With regard to Bethpage Black, I've played it well over 50 times in its previous condition. I know as well as most what that place was like and yet I still went back time after time. I have been one of those on this board who supported the woprk done by Rees.  I might have wished for a different/rougher final look (more like Running Deer   no joke ) but it absolutely serves the customer very well.