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T_MacWood

Doak Scale
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2001, 06:05:00 PM »
Matt
I don't think it always a case of people not devoting time and energy. You must also consider that not everyone can afford to travel from coast to coast and most have jobs and families to attend to. Then we have the complication of access - personally I give much more credit to a non-rater who actually goes to the effort of seeking out great golf, using only their determination and creativity (and money) to find a way - those people are simply driven by a desire to experience great golf and for that reason they have the utmost credentials in my book.

Did you have a blow up out west? Perhaps a problem with the tees not being flat enough.


Matt_Ward

Doak Scale
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2001, 09:04:00 PM »
Tom: Touche on the flat tee comment! Gave me a real good chuckle!!!

I agree with your comments about having the time, $$ and access. Let's just say it's a matter of combining elements.

You need to see courses in order to appreciate personally how they are alike / different. Tom, clearly Tom Doak would say (I guess) his extensive travels gave him clear insight on what architecture should be about.

I'll say it again -- just visiting courses is not enough. You have to be able to analyze intellectually and critically what the strengths and weaknesses are. Your point is right on target.

Tom -- when you say plenty of people don't have the $$ or time to do extensive travels I can understand that, but that should not take away from the fact that there are people who can and do on a limited budget. Before I became a GD panelist I did many of things you mention in order to play a number of well known courses.

However, Tom, if you have not personally experienced something I find it extremely hard to believe you can comment to the same level as those who have a direct tie.

I know you live in the immediate Columbus, Ohio area and as an active golfer you have seen countless times the great number of courses in the Buckeye State and those outside. To me, your opinion of those courses is really important because you have been there and returned to see a good number of them a number of times. Those visits, in my opinion, give you credibility and standing. Clearly, your analysis and intellectual ability are a part of the process. But that follows AFTER you've been there -- not before. I wish life could be totally fair and everyone had the wherewithal / time to visit all the great courses.

I visit this site specifically to listen to the comments of respected people who have been places I have not and I also enjoy / learn from their critiques / comments even if level tees aren't high on many people's radar screen! Had to throw that in ...


T_MacWood

Doak Scale
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2001, 03:10:00 AM »
I'm glad you welcome my opinion on courses within Ohio. I've actually played as many outside, than in. I'm sure you have've played many courses I have not, and I am sure I have played several great courses you have not - but who cares, the important thing is what you bring when you get there (and I don't mean a carpenters level ) and can you appreciate it and enjoy it when you are there. But then again perhaps my credentials are not valid outside my state -- I think they may have expired!

Matt_Ward

Doak Scale
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2001, 05:50:00 AM »
Tom:

I respect the credentials of a great many people on this site because I KNOW they really love golf and the architecture connected to it whether they be a panelist or not. Tom, it's clear to me you know golf (inside Ohio and beyond) and how architecture can add value to the game we play.

When people put in the time / energy to visit the courses they do (whether those courses are among the best or in the middle of the pack) I applaud their tenacity.

I'm also interested in understanding their reasoning because learning is the only way we grow in appreciating what has been designed.

Tom, FYI, I do appreciate the design aspects first and foremost. My tee peeves are purely a personal thing -- I hope you'll cut me some slack -- I hope to get an engraved carpenter's rule for Xmas! I think a few of the superintendents from Jersey may be sending one!!!


Herb_Flood

Doak Scale
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2001, 09:13:00 PM »
 The Doak Scale does indeed provide a system and common ground which we can all relate.

However,where does playing ability fall into the realm of rating courses? I believe it's very important.

Can anyone honestly tell me that you 18-22 handicappers out there can truly understand, for example, how great an opening hole the first at Merion truly is? I think not! Well maybe because someone told you or you read it somewhere; but, you don't know from personal experience or insight.

From experience: you can hit driver, wedge or you can hit 3-iron, 8 or 9-iron. For a short hole,it's not too difficult to make a bogey there (especially if the rough is up).Better players know this immediately. Often times, we can see this from standing on the tee.

Conversely, the typical 22 handicapper will slice his "divine nine" into the right rough only to chop an 8-iron back onto the fairway. From there, he chunks a 7-iron (only because it's his favorite club and the one he can get airborne on a fairly consistant basis) into a newly renovated greenside bunker. Two blasts and three putts later, he "extracts" the ball from the cup for a "snowman."

Someone please enlighten me...what does Mr. 22 Hcp really know or understand regarding the architectual features of the hole??? Can he really relate to how the hole was intended to be played by the designer and what options were available?

I think playing ability is huge in evaluating courses. The strategy required by the architect in his design is generally determined by the advanced player. In turn, those design features are more readily recognized, by those players.

We often talk about great courses that require every club in the bag...How many 22's hit every club in the bag? Unless they only carry 5 clubs.

All things being equal, the accomplished player offers superior analysis.


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Doak Scale
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2001, 04:53:00 AM »
Matt Ward:

Your suggestion that too many people talk about courses from second hand accounts or what they have read is inconsistent with my experience.

I travel a fair amount myself. Most golfers I meet don't present themselves as knowlegeable about golf architecture and feel no need to sound like an authority on such matters.

Thus, it is unusual to hear people talk about venues they haven't experienced first hand. Typically, a person who hasn't been to a particular course simply says "I haven't been there".

There are exceptions.  People comment on courses where tournaments are televised (e.g., Augusta)and often I hear people talking about a new well publicized venue (e.g., Old Head) when they acknowledge they haven't been there.

Where I probably do agree with you involves people commenting on the work of specific architects.  I suppose we all have a tendency to like or dislike certain architects and can easily fall into the trap of commenting on courses we haven't seen because of our feeling about a specific architect.

Tim Weiman

Matt_Ward

Doak Scale
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2001, 08:38:00 PM »
Tim,

What concerns me is the "herd" mentality. I've read posts on GCA and there is a tendency from some people to group courses / architects in a "all or nothing" sense.

I don't believe that "everything" that Ross, Doak, Hanse, Tillinghast, et al, touched or touches is out of this world. Clearly, each has designed courses that have some deficiencies. They have also designed spectacular courses that will last in the memories of all golfers who play their top efforts.

Take for example Rees Jones. There are people who really don't like his courses and I've seen comments that go beyond architectural issues. If Rees has designed poor courses which ones and why?

All of them are not as bad as some would claim. Have they seen recent work -- i.e. Olde Kinderhook, Nantucket and The Bridge, to name just three??? I think each of these is represent his finest work I've seen (FYI -- I've never played Ocean Forest).

Architects, like courses, evolve. Some thinks do improve, some don't, and it concerns me that people put a label on things and that becomes permanent.

Such a situation reminds me of television and character played by Andy Griffith. Everybody thought the only role he ever played was Sheriff Taylor from Mayberry. The man could obviously do much more than one role. That's the way labels can apply and unfortunately for that individual / course they can stick unless refuted.

Just like baseball teams the rise and fall of architects can happen through a career. Some people are elevating courses because of the name automatically attached to the course. I see that plenty of times with Tom Fazio designed courses but there are others.

I've learned from this site that other courses within a given area should be looked at first rather than second or third. On a different thread Tom MacWood and a few others highlighted the quality of Franklin Hills in MI as a must play course. Sometimes too much attention is given to the more known entity in the area -- in this case Oakland Hills / South. Now, I'm looking forward to seeing Franklin Hills because of various comments from people who I respect.

Tim, there are people who simply "jump on the bandwagon" because it's fashionable. I don't think a person can rate a course from simply walking the grounds. I believe you must play it. Clearly, Tom Doak did not play all of the courses listed in "Confidential Guide." I am well aware that there are some people who believe "walking" a course is even better than "playing" it for the purpose of a review. I don't believe that and have you used my restaurant analogy about the only way to rate a food establihsment is from actually tasting the items they serve.

Herb Flood:

Your comments are well taken. As a low handicap player myself I have often been accused by fellow GD panelists in favoring harder courses because of my ability. I've tried over the years to avoid looking at it from just my own perspective and one way I do that is by playing with friends whose game and ability level are far different from mine in order to take in the elasticity of the course being reviewed.

I would say your point in appreciating the elements needed to play a particular shot is not always so easy to discern. Herb, I appreciate the complete playing ability of Michael Jordan, but I could never remotely do what he does with a b-ball. What you are really saying is that only those who play the game at a high level can possibly appreciate the requirements needed on a given shot or course.

I don't believe you can apply an "all or nothing" description. Clearly, players who hit ground or topped shot with each swing or slice from NY to Kansas are not going to easily incorporate the elements of sound design. Hell, they're too busy piling up strokes.

But, I would avoid making "sweeping" assertions because understanding the game is one think and playing the game is another. I know of many low handicap players who have great talent for hitting the ball but could not discuss the nature of holes and courses even with a road map in front of them.

I believe it's matter of individual person rather than broad brush blanket assertions.


Herb_Flood

Doak Scale
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2001, 07:03:00 PM »
Matt Ward,

I know many scratch players who haven't a clue about course design or architecture...it's just not their thing. They could care less about the wonderful attributes of particular holes.


On the other hand, this is what WE are into...it's our hobby and passion...to us, it's more than just playing the game.

Just keep in mind what I said..."all things being equal, the accomplished player offers superior analysis."


Mike_Cirba

Doak Scale
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2001, 07:25:00 PM »
Matt,

I agree about the "herd mentality".  However, you mentioned 3 courses of Rees Jones that have all been built over the past couple of years.  I would love to hear that he has found his "game" and is now building great courses.

However, his career stretches back to 1978 or so and there is a LOT of history there that many of us are familiar with as regards his original designs.  

As much as I hate to stereotype, I feel that I could walk onto any Rees course anywhere in the world built between 1978 and 1998 and tell you with 30 seconds who designed it.  

It's wonderful to hear that is changing, but some of us have a lot of history to get past.

Given the wonderful sites he often gets, I have nothing but hope that he can build wonderful courses and I certainly wish him nothing but the best.  Still, there are SO many examples of less than stellar efforts that it's only normal to harbor healthy skepticism.  


Matt_Ward

Doak Scale
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2001, 12:32:00 PM »
Mike,

Hear you loud and clear!

Rees has, in my mind, clearly worked with vintage sites and his most recent work does need closer inspection.

Just keep in mind that when you mentioned the track record of Rees from 1978 to 1998 you must keep a degree of open mind (I'm sure you do!).

There are also other architects who are revered to such degree on GCA that any slight criticism is looked upon as heresy!
As they say with stocks -- past success is no indicator of future performance.

I would hasten to add that people who have skepticism of Rees and his work should study quite closely such modern designs as the following:

Cascata / Henderson, NV
Quintero (Founder Course) / Peoria, AZ
Nantucket / Nantucket Island, MA
Olde Kinderhook / Kinderhook, NY (Albany)
The Bridge, Bridgehampton, NY

With Rees, he does plenty fo well financed private clubs so access may be an issue for many GCA observers.

I would just hope that people do not label Rees with past designs that were clearly influenced by other factors. A good example is his design of Tattersall in West Chester, PA.

I even mentioned to him about how poorly the course is routed and the shot values that seem to be replicated from other courses.

Broad brush statements are easy to make. It's very enlightening if a person has indeed modified or even changed completely their style. I see that with the courses I've just mentioned.

There are quite a few posters on GCA who have certain design characteristics they consider fundamental. I often agree with m,any of them (i.e. firm and fast conditions, etc.).

I just hope reviews being made of design characteristics are based on what is produced rather than who is producing it.


T_MacWood

Doak Scale
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2001, 12:51:00 PM »
Matt
If I recall you are a great admirer of Pinehurst #7, saying it had wonderful routing. Please excuse any scepticism about your most recent claims, its difficult to know how to take your praise of your local favorite. You have obviously thoroughly studied these courses, what exactly about these courses do you feel is different than past efforts?

Talk about broadbrush opinions, you should re-read your most recent post.


Matt_Ward

Doak Scale
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2001, 09:26:00 PM »
Tom:

I think I have been open-minded about different designs irrespective of "who" has designed them. You mentioned Pinehurst #7 and you're right -- I really liked it. I understand the different points of view of others and I certainly have learned from them and when merited even changed my underlying beliefs.

Some people really dislike #7. I have not played the course recently (the last time was 1991) so when I'm in the area I will revisit and see if I feel differently.

As I mentioned I truly did not like Tattersall, the new course in West Chester, PA because of poor routing and the general sameness of holes. I mentioned this to Rees and although he explained to me what he was facing I still think it's just not that good.

I have noticed that people have made general comments on GCA about particular designers and therefore held to these beliefs even when new courses have come forward clearly different from past efforts.

I've had the pleasure in playing a wide variety of Rees Jones designed courses over the years which includes muni type, upscale daily fee and strictly private clubs.

I believe Rees has gone from an over emphasis on "playability" to more "strategic designs." Rees used to use an overabundance of "containment" mounding that was meant for the weaker player. It became so predictable that many people have carried forward with this criticism when it doesn't apply to some of the more recent courses he has designed.

I really like Huntsville in the Wilkes Baare, PA area, but this course too has some elements of the mounding used in earlier designs. Still, there are plenty of good holes in the design, to wit -- the par-4 11th, to name just one.

The bunkering placement has also evolved from years ago. I've noticed that bunkers are placed for more strategic considerations and not just "show." I've also seen a difference in the green complexes. In years past the green sites at a few of the designs were rather tame and did not penalize sufficiently indifferent iron play. That has changed in my opinion with the newer designs.

Rees has had a number of outstanding sites to work with when compared to others in the field. But, to his credit, with such efforts as Olde Kinderhook, Nantucket and The Bridge, he has clearly changed his overall presentation with a clear boost in strategic values combined with more complex routing plans. I have heard a number of wonderful comments about Ocean Forest but have not played it thus far.

Since all three of the aforementioned courses are private Rees has been able to add features because of limited play. Clearly, that is something all architects wish for because it allows them to be more creative without worrying about speed of play and overall difficulty factors.

I can go into greater detail with each of them but I think any person who has feelings about the design ability of Rees Jones should play all three and see if what I've said has merit. Rees has provided each course with a superb blending of different holes and challenges, the change of pace is definitely present and he has captured the elements of nature so that whenever you play the demands and central greatness of the holes when linked together, will always be present through any combination of forces Mother Nature can provide such as wind and the like.

From my standpoint Tom, you could never be bored playing any of the three I mentioned.
The sad part about Olde Kinderhook is that so few people have played it and because it is in the greater Albany area it gets far less publicity than just about any courses in New York state with that type of quality.

I do want to add that Cascata and Quintero / Founders are also well done, but a notch below the other three since the shot values are less intense and the layouts are more dependent upon the natural surroundings.

One last thing -- I have heard nothing but high marks and praise for Black Lake in MI --a public course in the northern part of the state. One fellow GD panelist says it's Rees best work and he's played two of three top ones I previously listed. I respect his comments because I have found them to be totally accurate in past situations with other courses. I'm looking forward to seeing the course next summer. If anyone has any comments I'd like to hear them.

I'll say it again -- architectural design efforts do evolve over the course of time. I review product -- not person. I also look at the results on a case-by-case basis and form my own opinions without jumping on the "herd" mentality. I just think there are some people on GCA who judge people and apply that tag from the courses they played at that particular point of time as a lifetime thing. Minus the effort at Tattersall I've really been impressed with what Rees has done from a new course perspective in the last few years.

I have not discussed any of the redesign projects that Rees has been involved with -- most notably Bethpage Black, among others. There are clearly factors involved with those courses that are different from the creation of new designs.

If I've been inconsistent Tom please make note of any and let me know. I'm human and I do make errors in consistency. It's not intentional you can be sure. I'm sure you'll point out any and I look forward to your always keen responses and insights. Your feedback, along with others, is always welcomed and appreciated.


TEPaul

Doak Scale
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2001, 12:56:00 AM »
Matt Ward:

When you spoke to Rees Jones about Tattersal did the fact that he explained to you what he was facing there have any influence on what you feel about the course? And what did he explain to you he faced there? Also when he was explaining the course to you did he happen to mention Keith Evans?


T_MacWood

Doak Scale
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2001, 03:22:00 AM »
Matt
It sounds like you feel Rees has improved in recent years. I'm interested in why you feel the architecture of these courses is outstanding -- not relative to his prior efforts. According to your criteria for judging architecture:

1). The quality of the land the course rests upon
2). The completeness of a sound routing plan that ties all the holes together.
3). The integration of comprehensive shot values that test power, finesse and accuracy in a seemless manner.

How do judge #1 and #2?

Where does utilization and integration of the natural features of a site come into your evaluation? Does it, should it?


Matt_Ward

Doak Scale
« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2001, 07:10:00 AM »
TEPaul & Tom MacWood:

Busy day thus far -- I'll provide a complete answer to your comments later today.

Thanks,

mw


Matt_Ward

Doak Scale
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2001, 09:01:00 PM »
TEPaul:

Clearly, what an architect faces is a major importance to me. I've said in another thread not too long ago that today's sites which architects must deal with pose a number of issues that Tillie, Ross, et al, did not have to handle. Among those issues include various environmental permits, the need for other non-golf related support functions and the ever-increasing costs associated with construction and upkeep.

Tom, these matters concern me because they are hurdles any architect must deal with in order to satisfy the client. However, although I do look closely at these issues the proof of the pudding is the taste. In simple terms -- how good is the finished product???

Rees has explained to me the nature of what the local governmental community would permit and what it would not permit. Clearly, the routing had to take this into consideration in order to go forward.

My issue with Tattersall is that you have abrupt dog-legs in order to keep everything in a tight fit. You also have holes that defy reason -- what was behind the thinking of the 2nd hole??? What about the constant use of the Swiss alps type hole -- elevated tee hitting into valley followed by an approach to an elevated target. I mean you can certainly do such holes, but must we see the same thing time after time after time (i.e. 1st, 4th, 11th, 12th, 14th and 18th???).

You also have forced lay-ups that take away club choice (i.e. the previously mentioned 2nd, the abrupt turn at #6 and the wetland crossing at the 9th are three good examples).

Let's also not forget the overused concept of the downhill par-3 that too many architects continue to design. At Tattersall you get three, THAT'S RIGHT THREE of them at #8, #13, #17!!!

Tattersall has just too much elevation and because of town imposed requirements the layout is forced to do a number of things that defy, in my mind, overall quality and sometimes gravity.

I also think the interplay of carts is also way over the top. The drives are nothing less than a roller coaster hole after hole. The ride from the 9th green to the 10th tee is as long as the route Marco Polo took to the Orient. Ditto the ride from the 18th green back to the clubhouse. And, best of all, is the marvelous decision to have the 10th tee require on coming traffic from the 9th green!!!

Sometimes as Tattersall demonstrates even the best of architects are put into positions not even Houdini could get out of.

Tom, I would like to hear about the aspect of Keith Evans. If you can't respond publicly please e-mail me at mattwardgolf@hotmail.com.

Tom MacWood:

You ask an important question in evaluating land sites for courses. I agree with Tom Doak that certain states (i.e. Florida) are often featureless and home of the most nondescript flat land possible. There are other states that could be added as well.

What do architects often do -- they overuse the bulldozer and weave so much water into play in the case of Florida that the courses really lack inherent strategic elements that Mother Nature provides in other areas of the country so naturally. With the exception of a few courses in Florida (i.e. Jupiter Hills, Innisbrook, Black Diamond, to name just three) you can almost write-off what goes on in the Sunshine State. It's fast food golf -- just give the masses places to play.

I look at sites and see if the land is rolling without being overly so. A good example of a course highly rated by GD but not so in my book is Sanctuary in Vedalia, Co. I credit Jim Engh with the design, but the amount of elevation change is so abrupt and swift that clear shot values are distorted continually because of the massive change in elevation. The land should add to the routing and shot values without becoming an issue all by itself.

Among courses that I truly love with exceptional land is Shinnecock Hills, Sand Hills and Plainfield, to name just three. The land at each of the aforementioned courses has movement like the waves at the ocean that clearly influences your strategy from the moment you arrive at each tee. One element that always facinates me is how fairways are created. If courses rely on the straight razor cut approach with little movement the repetitious nature of flat lies from each fairway becomes quickly boring.

Among recent designs that I really enjoyed even though man's hand played a major role include Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV andArcadia Bluffs in northern Michigan. Man did add numerous elements but in my mind they fit with the other elements already present. Like a puzzle the different pieces fit without being at odds with each other.

The routing element should be one, in my mind, that literally uses all the available land in a site and avoids repetitive elements that keeps shotmaking from being predictable. Oddly, this situation doesn't always translate into courses that are too easy -- I've played courses where the routing can be simplistic although the holes may prove to be difficult like Firestone South.

The routing should be always about movement that incorporates wind direction changes. Muirfield in Scotland is often the prototype of a course that never gives the player more than two holes that go in the same direction. In addition, Muirfield has one nine that loops in the opposite manner than the front. Clearly, ahead of its time.

Pacific Dunes is also well done but Doak has nearly all of the holes in a north-south / south-north manner. Big brother course, Bandon Dunes, gives more of a 360 degree spread.

The routing should also mix up hole lengths and direction. Great courses are like great baseball pitchers -- they have the ability to throw hard fastballs, but can mix up pitches, speeds and placement at will. Too much of modern design today do not have routing plans -- they have housing plans with a golf course thrown in to create value for the developer. Among the best routing plans I have ever seen includes Shinneock Hills and Cypress Point. The player is always facing a changing shot demand ... a changing wind, the ball above / below your feet and targets that never give the same look.  

I mentioned The Bridge before as a wonderful design by Rees Jones and clearly different than a number of past designs from years ago. The Bridge is blessed with superior land -- arguably the best on Long Island. The rolling terrain is sensational and the views, both on site and off, are beyond peer. Rees also created a routing plan that tests club selection and shot movement. At The Bridge you will find high quality uphill holes -- rarely do architects design such holes because they can often be overly demanding because of the shift in terrain and on shotmaking for the weaker player.

Finally shot values must test rigorously the ability to hit all the clubs in the bag with both direction and ball movement, provide options for the player to determine their line of play and reward / penalize proportionally the type of shot ultimately executed.

I believe the integration and utilization of natural features is an important element because it shows the architect is able to add to the quality of the site without overdoing man's hand in a unnatural manner. I concur with Tom Doak that flat land usually lacks the kind of natural features that many of the great courses have. I have no issue when other elements are added to bolster natural features created by Mother Nature but when man's hand goes over the top such as at Loxahatchee (an early Nicklaus design in Florida) you can see how the course clearly "stands out" rather than "fits in."

Rees Jones has clearly hit a stride with a powerful entry of superb courses in the last few years. I urge any GCA contributor to see Olde Kinderhook, Nantucket and The Bridge. Each of them possesses the qualities, in my mind, that keep your interest shot after shot and round after round. Given all the courses I've ever played I would not hesitate to include all three in my personal top 100 for what it's worth to anyone else.

Just a humble opinion ...

mw


T_MacWood

Doak Scale
« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2001, 02:55:00 AM »
Matt
You spent twelve paragraphs explainimng your thoughts on many courses, unfortunately not the three I asked you about. Well actually you toched on The Bridge. Since you are lecturing us about the soundness of these designs, please describe all using your 3 point rule for judging architecture. Are these courses that will be branded in our memories for some time, not the experience but the individual holes and unique features? In the past many of Rees holes/courses leave us after a good night sleep.

How would you rate the land and routing of Garden City? I know your not a fan of Shoreacres, how does it stack up using your 3 point criteria?


Matt_Ward

Doak Scale
« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2001, 08:50:00 PM »
Tom:

I'll provide the "Cliffs Note" approach with my answer this time. If anyone, yourself included, believe my comments are "lectures" that is not my intent or desire.

Garden City GC is a gem. Love the land site because it does have variety and roll -- albeit not as drastic as others.

The routing is mesermizing as it constantly turns in one way or the other. Ditto the shot values which call for complete excellence through the bag.

My only criticism of GCGC was the amount of water applied by the superintendent and staff. Played the course during one of the reigon'a hot spells with Pat Mucci and the turf was pverly moist than dry. Just a personal thing but I see it as taking away from how th eocurse should play. I do commend GCGC in taking away so many trees to provide the optimum setting that was originally envisioned.

Shoreacres, in my opinion, is just lacking. I guess the lack of yardage and the general sameness of a number of short holes really made me scratch my head that GD rates it so high. Yes, these are marvelous versions of Raynor holes at the site. But, I'll take Camargo and Fisher's Island before Shoreacreas. Related item -- I would rate Skokie and even Rich Harvest Links ahead of Shoreacreas.

Olde Kinderhook, Nantucket and The Bridge.
You say Rees has had designs that after a good night's sleep you forget. That won't happen at those above.

To be fair -- each of these sites comes with a major amount of $$ backing it up. Rees is not designing courses for public play, but for those who want an enclave of quality. But known of the courses features an "over the top" array of bells and whistles features such as goofy greens, waterfalls and the like.

Each of the sites has dynamic land that inspires you. I know I was really inspired with each hole and each view.

All of the holes are linked together in a routing plan that enhances natural features that are tied to that property. At Nantucket you don't have excessive mounding that calls attention to itself. Rees also has avoided his previous "containment" mounding that really has no place when vintage sites are involved.

Olde Kindershook suffers because so few have really played it. The land weaves in and around natural hills and each hole presents in a clear and no nonsense fashion what is called for.

The Bridge will also have few rounds played over its grounds in the next few years. I believe The Bridge belongs in the company of Shinnecock Hills, National, GCGC and Bethpage Black as the five premier courses on Long Island to play. The routing at The Bridge forces the player to play all the shots -- I know it did that to me. The Bridge is not an "experience" because of marvelous scenery -- it's a dynamic course because all three elements I mentioned are present from #1 thru #18.

Tom, your skepticism of Rees Jones can be seen when you say previous designs have been lacking. I don't question that since I have played a number of his courses over the years. I ask you what recent designs have you played? What previous ones left you disappointed? It helps me to know so that any discussion can have reference point. I didn't mention Huntsville in Wilkes Baare, PA and it too is a solid course that many times gets lost in the shuffle.

I also mentioned two other designs that Rees has done recently -- Cascata and Quintero / Founders. Both are good but as I have said in a previous post they depend more on existing land and off-site surroundings to add to their overall appeal. The top three I mention are much deeper in their overall quality in my mind.

Hope this helps ...

Did I lecture too much? My apologies if you or anyone thinks that. Just a humble opinion from one person.


T_MacWood

Doak Scale
« Reply #68 on: September 25, 2001, 09:59:00 AM »
Matt
What natural features at Nantucket were not ravaged by the massive earth moving? Wouldn't you have preferred Rees had worked  with that very unique site, instead of overpowering it?

I find it quite fascinating, to know what goes through the head of a typical Golf rater, but I wish you would detail the three courses against your 3 criteria, I'm still unclear why these course are outstanding in comparison to other great courses. Perhaps you enjoy their challenge more than your stated criteria.

For example how to you rate a course's routing, do you approach the site before contruction? I would have thought Shoreacres would have gotten high marks for both routing and land, that's why I'm really interested in what goes into your rating thoughts. Do you judge the routing against other potential routings that you have come up with? Do you indetify the land's outstanding features? Do you identify potential green sites? Do you need a map to discover the change directions? As an example, courses I'm familar with, how would judge Ohio State or The Golf Club's routing and why?

And how do you rate the land the course rests upon? Is that before or after the course was built. For example how do you rate the land that Whistling Straits is built upon? Shadow Creek? Nantucket? Do you think the land that Nanatucket rests upon is better prior or after construction?

And you last criteria -- comprehensive shot value -- how does Cypress Point, Fishers Island and NGLA rate under this criteria?

And what about the designs of Nantucket, Kinderhook and Bridges that is unique and inspiring, as you say? Unusual features? Great natural attributes? Ambiance? Difficulty?

The last two Rees course I've seen are Currituck and Nantucket, the second I didn't play. I was familar with both sites prior to construction and I must say, I was extremely disappointed.


Pete Adams

Doak Scale
« Reply #69 on: September 25, 2001, 11:45:00 AM »
Matt Ward: I agree Skokie is a better course than Shoreacres, but Rich Harvest Farms? What about the 3rd hole (short dogleg left with way too many trees, including 3 or 4 right in the middle of the dogleg) 4th hole (par 3 approx 200 yards...have to hit over grove of trees directly in line with green, and at the same time keep it under trees at the end of the tee) 13th hole (hit off of astro turf into a chute that is way too narrow, approx 5 yards) 14th hole (210 yard par 3 to a green that is way too small & shallow, probably 7 paces deep) 15th hole (again tee off from astro turf, 240 yards carry, no landing area. Hit it 260/270 & you are through the fairway) 18th (tee it from astro turf again). The course can't be walked very easily (most tees 50 yards plus away). Matt curious as to why you would mention this course? Do you really think Shoreacres is that bad? For my frame of reference what other courses in the Chicago area have you played & how would you rank them?    

Matt_Ward

Doak Scale
« Reply #70 on: September 25, 2001, 12:16:00 PM »
Tom:

Good questions -- I'll try my best to offer succcint answers.

I guess Nantucket is a matter of degree. You feel Rees "overpowered" the site and to be totally honest I did not see the site before earthmoving equipment was brought into the design so I really cannot comment on that point. I imagine you must feel that Tom Fazio "overpowered" the site at Shadow Creek?? Others would argue that Fazio / Wynn transformed a site through the benefits of plenty of $$ and man's hand. Is that good or bad? I guess it depends upon how you, I and others feel about too much of man being involved with a site's creation. I played the ocurse twice and liked Shadow Creek. I don't believe GD should have rated it as high as it was initially, but I would still keep the course in my personal top 100 but more towards the back of the list than front.
I believe Tom Fazio's work at Victoria National is the finest I have seen of his work and that includes visits I've made to other such renowned sites as Wade Hampton and The Estancia Club, to name just two.

Tom, in the final analysis, I just like the way the holes are layed out at Nantucket. Rees understood the prevailing wind patterns and the holes do offer challenges so that the golfer cannot depend upon one wind to hurt or help throughout the round. The holes do vary in length and direction and the green sites are angled nicely to highlight certain particular areas of the fairway where approaches should be played for maximum gain.

Nantucket doesn't have the wrinkled fairways you find at Pac Dunes and I guess that would have been nice to add as well. The dunes are clearly present on a number of holes and the native fescue grasses do offer a wonderful contrast to the neatly cropped fairways.

Earth was clearly moved. Did he "overpower" the site? I guess ultimately each person will have an answer of how much "overpowering" is permissible. I didn't find that Rees had done so to such a degree that it was, in my mind, so apparent as it was at Atlantic -- a course I believe GD has overrated and should not be among America's 100 Greatest as it presently is. Atlantic to me has all the elements I've mentioned previously with "containment mounding," bunkers that are merely for show and large greens that rarely mandate sound iron play.

But the key to understand Rees Jones design is to see a large body of work and compare them. You mentioned two designs you had played among his recent work and you were disappointed in both. Have you played other Rees Jones courses or are these the only two within say the last 5-7 years?

I see the evolution of his design. Olde Kinderhook sits on a wonderful site and all of the holes are integrated in a manner that calls for supreme ability to hit all types of golf shots.

As far as land is concerned I take great interest in what was on the course before man's hand got involved. I've played WS and although I thoroughly enjoy the original course as a supreme test of golf when the wind is up I found the Irish Course to be clearly dictated by man's hand. That doesn't mean to say I didn't enjoy playing the course, but from my point of view, the original seems to fit more naturally with the surroundings than the Irish. That's just my gut opinion. Believe me, I am aware that Pete Dye moved plenty of earth at both sites to create such a setting.

Tom, I thought I had detailed my three criteria for Olde Kinderhook, Nantucket and The Bridge. Either I wasn't clear or you have overlooked some of my comments. I see these three courses as being steps beyond what Rees has done previously and I credit him for tempering some of the elements that just did not fit. I'm guessing you believe those elements of contention are still there in Nantucket from what you saw???

Your other question was in comparing routings. I believe the three Rees Jones courses I've mentioned to give the maximum amount of twists and turns that call for a golfer to execute an array of shots.

As far as Shoreacreas is concerned I really do enjoy Seth Raynor's work and the course does offer a number of wonderful holes. It's just that Tom I really wanted to see more types of holes than just a series of outstanding short par-4's. If I recall correctly you have no less than six par-4's that are 380 yards or less from the tips. Clearly, I enjoyed thoroughly a few of them -- the best being the 4th and in second place the 11th.

I also think Shoreacreas is on flat property with very little movement with the exception of the holes clustered in the rear corner where the 6th green, 11th green, 15th tee meet, among others.

The green sites are very good generally and I think the variety among the par-3's is also superb. The par-5's in my mind are simply ordinary holes with the 1st and 18th holes being nothing more than out and in type holes.

I played Skokie that afternoon after playing
Shoreacreas and I would opt to play Skokie without a doubt time after time because of high marks in all three areas that I judge a course. Have you seen Skokie since Pritchard's work was completed??? I'm not denigrating Shoreacreas but I would not include it in my personal top 100.

The rest of the questions you asked I will answer but my work schedule intrudes at this moment so forgive me -- I'll respond to the rest later today.

Hope this helps -- Maybe you can provide me your thoughts on how you see Shoreacreas? I only played the course once and I may have missed other details you can explain. FYI -- I really enjoyed OSU Scarlet when I played it but I was fortunate that the conditions were really good just prior to a college tourney. The Golf Club, in my mind, is one of this country's finest courses and arguably Pete's best work (this includes Teeth of the Dog). I would rate it among my personal top 25. I played it twice when Fred Taylor was GM 7-8 years ago. The natural setting, the complex routing and the demanding shot values have never left my memory. I'd love to see it again if I get in the area. Since you live in Columbus I'd like to understand your thoughts on both courses since I'm sure you have played them countless of times.

Any info you can provide is always most welcomed and appreciated.

Regards,


Matt_Ward

Doak Scale
« Reply #71 on: September 25, 2001, 01:45:00 PM »
Pete,

Appreciate your comments!

My Chicago portfolio is not as comprehsnive as many. I have played many of the more famous designs and nearly all of the top daily fee courses. Unfortunately, I would have liked to play Olympia Fields/ South since it wass restored. The last time I played it was back in 1990 when Medinhan served a host to the Open. People tell me Olympia South is really something.

As a GD rater I was very impresed with Skokie. How the present course is not among the nation's top 100 courses is beyond any comprehension, in my opinion! I guess many people have not really seen the course since Ron Pritchard's outstanding renovation effort. I look upon Skokie as Chicago's answer to Plainfield in my home state of NJ. The routing, green complexes and flow of holes is top notch given the tight area of land the course resides.

As far as Rich Harvest Links is concerned you are right on target concerning the overhanging tree limbs on a number of holes.

Take away the overhanging limbs and you still have good holes -- i.e. the par-4 3rd and par-3 4th. Keeping those limbs is really a silly feature.

The astro turf you mention is really done because of the lack of sunshine that can assist turf growth in the areas in question. I personally liked the par-4 13th. Is it tight? Does it make your stomach churn? You bet!

If you want them to widen it by a few yards so be it but the hole is fair once you know what must be done. Hell, I'd rather hit off state-of-the-art astro turf then hit from a tee that is bare and has spooty grass cover. Since it's not used except for areas where turf growth is problematic I don't see a major problem with it. I guess traditionalists will scoff at astro turf on any course whatever the reasons are and I respect that.

Rich Harvest Links does give you a variety of holes and options. I guess you could say there are too many variable holes. I see that as a plus.

You mention the par-3 14th. The key is what tee did yo play from? I played it from the tips (back of the 5th tee) to a rear left position (toughest you can have) and still stayed on the green. It is possible but the proper tee usage / pin placement is necessary to avoid any situation where luck overrides skill.

Jerry Rich did a fine job on his first effort as a designer. Is it perfect? No, it's not. Is it a "classic course" that so many GCA contributors would favor? I doubt because the course features different elements that may not blend in the manner of what a Gil Hanse, Tom Doak, etc, etc, could do. But, I found one thing about Rich Harvest that holds it up for me -- it does reward good shots and will not tolerate poor ones. Cut the trees on the holes you mentioned and I think you have a course of real quality. As an FYI -- I'd still take Skokie over Rich Harvest because the design genuis of Ross has no peer and Pritchard did so well in rejuvenating such a classic course.

Hope this helps --

I'm guessing you have played a wide variety of Chicago courses -- any insight you can provide would be most welcomed and appreciated.

Pete -- I like Shoreacreas but just like many people complain about too many long par-4's on a course, I say how many short ones do you need at Shoreacreas??? The par-3's are superb but the par-5's are an after thought. The land has some movement, but much of the design pays homage to minimalism and subtle features. I guess I missed plenty of the subtle features that everybody touts. Some people equate minimalism as "less being more" -- I would argue that sometimes minimalism is "less being less." Give me Carmargo and Fisher's Island anytime as two examples of Raynor's finest work. I like Shoreacreas, but I don't see it in my personal top 100. Just a humble opinion ...

Regards,


T_MacWood

Doak Scale
« Reply #72 on: September 25, 2001, 01:52:00 PM »
Matt
Now you've got me totally confused.

Have you ever played a course by the sea where the designer didn't understand the prevailing wind paterns?

Overpowered in the sense that site was totally unique and didn't need to transformed into Rees' vision of a links course. Gently rolling choppy terrain, several lone weathered old trees, and native grasses, some boggy area, some sandy areas, and the only naturalized heather in N.America. It was a once in lifetime site with a totally unique natural habitat.

Shadow Creek and Whistling Straits were largely featureless sites that didn't have much to overpower.  And that is why I'm confused, you claim you attempt to evaluate the land prior to construction, yet Nantucket you never saw and obviously every course built before you were born you never saw either. Do you think it might be useful to do geographic/geologic investigation prior to rating a course, that way you can do honest evaluatation of the land?

As far as Shoreacres, the site is very unusual. Sitting on low bluff above Lake Michigan, yet being completely isolated from the lakeshore. The ravines that twists throughout the site are not something you see too often and Raynors ability to maximize its use was genius, not only over it and around and near it, but also down into it. The holes near the clubouse are less than exciting because the land is flattish and comparitively dull, but the holes that feature the serpitine stream are extremely well done and exhibit more of Raynor's routing genius. The course is overall very short, and it'll never see an Open, but I don't put much weight in such things. I couldn't tell you about the prevailing wind nor the change of directions.

As far as the routing of OSU and The Golf Club, I'm trying to understand the GD/Matt routing evaluation criteria, I already know my thoughts on the subject. How do you specifically view the routing of these courses so I might compare it to my own?


Pete Adams

Doak Scale
« Reply #73 on: September 25, 2001, 03:27:00 PM »
Matt: Maybe I wasn't very clear. (That's why I hate written correspondence vs verbal, and don't chime in here very often.) As I said earlier I think Skokie is better than Shoreacres. I also think Shoreacres is way better than Rich Harvest Farms. I see we are pretty much in agreement on holes #3 & # 4. However, I think you need to take out lots of whole trees not just some overhanging limbs. I'm aware of the reason for the astro turf tees (Jerry was nice enough to give us a playing tour from the new tips @ 7,700 yards),I think instead the trees should be thinned out to enable the grass to grow. As far as the 14th goes there is a new tee approx 210 yards, close to where you come off the 13th green. This tee faces the green head on if you can picture the green in the shape of a hotdog and you're playing it all carry over water to the thin part of the dog. There is no bail out long because there isn't much room behind the green before you drop off the back and are approx 1 story below the green in grass up to your knees hitting back in the direction off the water. No, I don't like the hole because of a bad experience. Like you I was lucky enough to hit the green and even made my put, but I think 7 paces of depth on a 210 yard hole that is all carry with no bail out long is too penal. I also agree that Jerry did a good job on his first attempt and he is a great guy, very passonate about golf and giving back to the game, but the course isn't better than many in Chicago both prvate & public. Got to go catch my train.

Matt_Ward

Doak Scale
« Reply #74 on: September 25, 2001, 09:59:00 PM »
Tom:

My head is really spinning with all this wonderful semantic exercise. Tom, next time you respond tell me what we agree upon from your point of view. I evaluate courses from a starting point of three main items. Where do you begin the process?

I've played courses where designers do make mistakes with what many people consider elementary aspects. One example LACC / North has the finishing two holes directly in the setting sun. I've also seen holes designed where the wind is not really calcualted into the mix. Ironically, one of the course that come quickly to mind is Montauk Downs State Park on Long Island -- a Trent Jones design that Rees had a major hand in creating. There are plenty of holes where bunkers are placed too close to green sites because of the daily strength of the wind. There are also holes that provide for short holes playing extremely short because of the prevailing wind and long par-4's that play even longer because of prevailing headwinds. Usuaulyl architects try to reverse this to keep th ecourse in some sort of design balance / challenge.

I don't view Shoreacreas in the same manner as you do because when a course has number of dull holes you cannot simply jump ahead and say, "but look at how wonderful Raynor used the existing" land in a few other places. The par-5's at Shoreacreas are dullsville! I'll give you the tee shot at #13, but the rest of them are just filler. The par-3's are certainly good and vary in their challenge -- no doubt. Just answer me this -- how many short par-4's does a course need??? To me Shoreacreas is a wonderful member's course from yesterday -- not today. That's just my opinion Tom. I know you'll find some reason to say differently, but I don't get a buzz out of playing the course. At Skokie I do. Have you played Skokie since Ron Pritchard restored it? If you have not you're missing something. Maybe since we disagree on just about anything you may think my opinion of Skokie is also overblown.

Overpower in my mind is where man's hand is used to dramatcially alter what Mother Nature originaly provided. I believe an argument can be made that Fazio did this at Shadow Creek and Dye the same at WS. You believe this is what Rees did at Nantucket. Tom, you see it one way and I see it another.
It's that simple period.

When you say land areas prior to course construction I like to know what was present at a site because it helps me to understand what hurdles the architect faced -- this is particularly so with modern designs because of land iregularities tied to environmental issues and the like. Many times I only learn after playing the course what was there beforehand. I've had the opportunity to see a few courses prior to the first blade of dirt being moved, but when I do visit I try to see how the constructed course blends into the existing terrain that is off-site. If it really doesn't fit in an argument can be made as to how natural the course is to its surroundings. Play Olde Kinderhook and The Bridge and you will see this right away. The courses match really well. Tom, I'm still waiting for you to list other Rees Jones courses you have played besides the two you mentioned. Are those the only two you've played? Have you ever liked a top course designed by Rees? Can you tell me if there is such a course from your experiences and why you liked it???

We clearly disagree about Nantucket because you believe rustic / native features, you previously, described are absent. I disagree. I believe Rees did design a number of outstanding holes that weave their way in a wonderful manner. You are not just playing variations of short par-4's the whole way around as you do for the most part at Shoreacreas. I said before six, that's right six holes, are less than 380 yards. I love the 4th hole and also the 11th. The rest are simply OK.

Shoreacreas does not test driving the ball to the max. Essentially, as long as you bump the ball out there about 230 yards and keep it in play you can handle just about the entire course from a length perspective. At 6,300 yards the course doesn't have the length to really interest me. You feel differently -- no big deal. Just to make sure you don't label me someone who only prefers long courses I really do enjoy classic short courses such as Somerset Hills in my native state, to name just one. I also like other Raynor short courses such as Camargo and Fisher's Island. Somerset Hills has severe green sites and there are holes where the driver (both straight and long) is a big plus and is tested. Raynor, no doubt was a genuis. I'm not saying he wasn't. But when a course is that short I look for some elements that push me as a player. Playing variations of a full-wedge, three-quarter wedge and half-wedge gets old. It's no different than when people complain that certain courses are just set-up to provide one long iron or even wood to a series of long par-4's hole after hole.  

I'm not saying Shoreacreas is a bad course I just think it's a bit overrated by GD. The routing is good because Raynor uses the whole facility as best as possible and clearly being near Lake Michigan brings in the element of wind.

You believe I'm crazy in favoring Nantucket because Rees wasted a golden opportunity with the quality of that site. I don't see it that way. I guess we can argue this until the cows come home. Let's just leave it at that. Maybe when we meet over a beer we can rehash this hash!

I only played The Golf Club twice and from I can recall Pete keeps you constantly guessing as the holes zig and zag through the property. I believe with the exception of #12 and #13 you never have two holes running in the same general direction. Pete used native grassses to give the layout an "aged" look that I really like. And, I view the finishing holes as a grand climax to the course -- especially the 18th with the water that hugs so near to the green. The Golf Club always tests the player to drive the ball with the utmost skill. You can't get away with sloppy play off the tee.

I can't recall many details abot OSU Scarlet since I only played it once years ago, but I liked the variety of holes and I can see how Mackenzie imbued the course with some solid strategic options for the player to decide upon when teeing off on many holes. I'd like to play it again to refresh my memory.

Tom, before signing off -- let me know where we agree besides disagreeing. Just a joke, OK???

P.S. Tom, you asked me about Cypress, Fisher's and NGLA. First, I'd say each has great routings. You constantly keep moving in different directions. The shot values are also dynamic although less so at Fisher's. You have to play a wide variety of shots and daily conditions at all three can dramatically affect your game.

Pete:

I liked Rich Harvest Links more than you did -- that's obvious. I completely concur with you about the tree cutting needed at the site. It's time for such serious clearing to maximize playing angles on many of the holes. I also concur that widening the 13th is OK, but only so long as the are around the tee is concerned. The trees out in the drive zone are OK in my book. Let's be honest -- the hole is a touch SOB and you had better step up a good notch to handle it. That's no different than what you would face at demanding long par-4 courses such as WF / West and Oakland Hills / South, to name just two.

I'll concede the 13th can be extremely demanding but playing from the proper tees is something to consider. At 210 yards the angle and playing area is extremely tight. But who says you have to play from that length and have the pin placed in the extreme left corner? If the hole was played at 150 yards with that pin I say fine no problem.

Pete, we agree about Skokie! You see Shoreacreas as being better than RHL. I don't. I believe Rich Harvest Links test you more completely from all your clubs in the bag -- particularly the driver. In my opinion, clean out the trees and the course will be even better.