News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


THuckaby2

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2001, 05:54:00 PM »
Aaron - I'll concur with Rich that Bandon is a fine idea.

To try and answer some of your questions:

1. No, they absolutely do not close for winter.  Weather can be dicey, but they also have some of their nicest weather in winter... this is Oregon, home of RAIN... which can happen any time of year.

2. It's dirt cheap to live in Bandon, relative to California anyway.  I don't know if they have any residency thing going on but it wouldn't surprise me.  The people there are VERY nice - call and inquire!

TH


ForkaB

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2001, 06:10:00 PM »
Aaron

Tom H is right.  The weather at Bandon over the winter will be wetter but warmer than Pinehurst, for example.  Also, it's got to be cheap, for as someone once said, of some other place, "It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from there!"  (On my drive there 5 days ago I passed a town called "Remote" and I still had an hour to go to Bandon!).

I'm not sure about David Kidd, but Tom Doak was there 2 days ago amongst other things building a new first tee (which forced us to walk through the boondai to get to the existing tee ) and I assume he and his team will be back there off and on for some time.  Even if you don't get to meet him and/or David, I'm sure you will learn something through osmosis.

Good luck

Rich


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2001, 07:22:00 PM »
Aaron,

Rich Goodale is right.  Go to Bandon.

Tim Weiman

APBernstein

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2001, 07:32:00 PM »
I find it surprising that Bandon is apparently the consensus once again.  It seems to be the answer to everything these days.  The bandwagon effect is tremendous, but in this case, it could be wrong.

Aaron:

Can I ask where you live and where you go to school?


Slag_Bandoon

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2001, 09:23:00 PM »
 "...in pursuit of a design career."  

RJ Daley is the burning bush on this one. Reread his post.  Now, read Mackenzie's Spirit of St. Andrews and focus on what is philosophically important in designing and get into the dirt on a crew. You'll see how people play by the divots. You can always caddy on your days off for more cash. It's easier to be a hands on designer if you start out that way and not work yourself into it later.  Habits start when you're young, make good habits.  

Bandon would be a great stop and I believe anyone with a love of golf would be welcomed into the great camaraderie that prevails there.  The employees definitly present a happiness for working there.  It's a sleepy town when the sun goes down but if you're intent on "pursuing a design career", it may help you focus on that goal. Bring your own books though until Dan King comes to town and takes over the library. If you get tired of the rain the Oregon desert is only a couple of hours drive away and there are a multitude of courses there; with more being built.
I think St. Andrews would be a great step.
Michigan sounds great for the summer.  
Long Island sounds terrific.

Oh, to be young again.
 


Tommy_Naccarato

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2001, 09:56:00 PM »
Aaron, I would take Harley's and John B.'s advice and go to St. Andrews and rough it there. this way you could grasp what Jeremy Glenn obviously didn't when he was there.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2001, 10:09:00 PM »
Andrew,

Maybe you just missed the boat by heading to Pinehurst instead of Pacific Dunes last summer!


Paul Turner

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2001, 04:56:00 AM »
I'd like to recommend St Andrews too, but I'm sure you'd need a work visa unless you did "cash in hand" jobs.  Maybe you can work legally through a student visa?

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2001, 05:15:00 AM »
Bill Perlee:

Resent my comments all you want, they were not intended to offend anyone.  

I stated that the choice was no contest for me.  I made way more money, became close with influential members, had the opportunity to work when I wanted, and loved every minute of it.  All of which is fact and in no way demeans or degrades other professions.

I even mentioned that my interests and personality lent themselves better to the caddie trade than they would have to working at an entry level on the grounds crew.

I mow my own lawn, but have a crew take care of the rest of my yard.  I derive more pleasure from personal interaction than I do from completing tasks like smoothing sand, mowing grass, cutting cups, or repairing maintenance equipment.

Moreover, anyone who hired me as a member of the crew would have probably suggested that I find work elsewhere before a week had passed.  All of us are suited for different things.

(If memory serves, Bill, you are the Supe at Apawamis.  I have an immense amount of respect for the profession, contribute pro bono to one of your industry trade publications, always stick up for the Supe when players denigrate course conditions, and - most importantly - know I would never have been able to work in that profession even though I love golf.)

Please accept my apology for a previous post that may have offended.  It was not the intent.  I would still urge Aaron to try the "itinerant looper" route to see great courses.  Show up every day early and on time for a week and you'll have steady work all summer long.  Especially if you start before the schools let out.


THuckaby2

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2001, 05:17:00 AM »
Andrew:  the "bandwagon effect" is powerful indeed, but please remember even among those who have made the trek to "near nowhere", there are still debates... particularly as to the merits of the two courses!  We had quite a row on here a month ago re exactly that.

I believe most people who've been to Bandon have also been to MANY other places.  We aren't sheep.  Bandon is for real.  I'm sure you'll see it yourself some day, then you'll understand.

TH


TEPaul

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2001, 05:30:00 AM »
If I were you I would go to North Ireland and study Portrush and particularly County Down. Study Portrush more for general ideas and County Down more for exact architectural detail. Understanding the architectural concepts of the last 50 or so yards on about 6-7 holes at RCD is a great education that is useable.

Lastly, study Max Behr's concepts of "lines of charm" and all that it may mean. Take that and the architectural detail you have  seen and just let your mind wander! And if you happen to be walking around out in the country or whatever, particularly on open ground, see if you can see the golf and golf possibilities on it! Understanding and visualizing the possibilities of machinery can wait for later!


THuckaby2

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2001, 06:00:00 AM »
The eloquent Mr. Paul nails it again...that is a GREAT idea.  Live near Portrush, study that and Portstewart and Castle Rock, travel down to County Down as much as possible...

Even besides the golf (which is fantastic and from which you will learn more than you could ever hope for) it is just a GREAT place to live!

Aaron, if you do seriously head in this direction, let me know.  I have a cousin who lives there and he is the greatest host on this earth.

TH
tom.huckaby@clorox.com


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2001, 07:05:00 AM »
Tom Huckaby:

In reference to your comment to Andrew Bernstein, yes, I have been to many other great venues besides Bandon.

Obviously, there are other places Aaron might go.  Tommy N mentions St Andrews.  How can one argue with that?  Gib Papazian throws in NGLA.  BarnyF prefers Pine Valley.

And so on.

But, suggesting Bandon is not simply jumping on the bandwagon.  The place is real.

Did Andrew Berstein make a mistake caddying at Pinehurst when given the opportunity to help out at Pacific Dunes?  Yes, I think he did.......and I'm quite familiar with Pinehurst.

Tim Weiman

THuckaby2

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2001, 07:44:00 AM »
Tim W - well, I can't say if Andrew made a mistake choosing Pinehurst over Bandon, what the heck, Pinehurst isn't exactly a BAD place to spend some time and learn!

Re the "bandwagon" comment he made, we are on the same wavelength most definitely.  Telling it like it is does not mean one jumps on any bandwagon.

But please realize I was responding to HIS comment, several posts above.

Cheers!

TH


APBernstein

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2001, 08:12:00 PM »
This is very interesting.  Apparently, I made a mistake in going to Pinehurst instead of Pacific Dunes.  You have to realize that...

*  I was only 5.5 hours away, by car, from my home and family in Charleston, WV.

*  It was only 3.5 hours to my grandparents' home south of Charleston, SC.

For my first time away from my house for an extended period of time, I would at least like to visit my family more than once ever 6 months.  Bandon isn't exactly accessible, and a trip across the country isn't exactly cost effective for someone paying his own way.

To say that I made a mistake in the choice I made is flat-out ignorant.  Pacific Dunes was the wrong choice and still is.  I wouldn't trade my time in Pinehurst for anything and would do it over in a second if I needed to.  I didn't miss any boat.  Maybe I missed the boat of everyone on this board, but I sure didn't miss mine.  It's ludicrous that I am actually explaining my decision.  Absurd even.

Aaron, do whatever sounds best.  I can only vouch for Pinehurst as one incredible place.

All the best,


Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2001, 08:23:00 PM »
Aaron,
 I would push you towards anything that the C&C Crew has done. First of all, they are all amazing people. Secondly, the way that they move as little dirt as poosible to make the holes appear as though they were there, instead of built. Thirdly, Jeff Bradley's bunker work-He is the best in the world at creating them and giving them a raggy look. I learn so much from him this past summer. Plus, C&C are putting out some of the best courses to date.Lastly, the opportunity to work with Bill Coore-an experience that I will never forget!! They are building in Texas, New Mexico and possibly Kentucky. Let me know if I can help..nysseaguy_32@yahoo.com
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

THuckaby2

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2001, 08:33:00 PM »
Andrew, no explanation needed on my account. Your time at Pinehurst sounded great to me... and like I say, I sure wouldn't ever say it was a mistake.

But citing the "bandwagon effect" re Bandon, well... that was a bit harsh.

Please do try to get out there sometime before it gets too over-run.  Believe me, it will.  Word is out most definitely.  

Like I say, when you see it, you'll understand why we are all raving.  It is indeed the real deal.  When does this board ever agree on anything?

TH


APBernstein

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2001, 08:41:00 PM »
Tom:

It may be as great as everyone says.  I won't dispute that not having seen it.  But it's a little too powerful when one person suggests it and the next 30 second that suggestion.  It is trendy, and maybe for good measure.  But it is a bit overwhelming for one person to see all that in one topic.  It happened to me before I went to Pinehurst when people were actually begging me to go.

All I want to do is speak of the merits of my Pinehurst trip.

All the best,


THuckaby2

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2001, 09:19:00 AM »
Understood, Doubting Andrew.  

But let's look at this thread.

Berhardt suggests TOC
Gib offers NGLA
Barny offers Pine Valley
redanman agrees with Gib re Pine Valley
Josh Taylor says Australian sandbelt
Craig R concurs re NGLA & PV
JConley gives a slew of great choices
Ed Baker offers two in Vermont
an anon suggests Merion
Dick Daley gives many great choices, and mentions Bandon as one of them, for part of a year
Jeff Lewis adds Winged Foot
some exchanges with Aaron re the above
Pat Mucci concurs re NGLA and says add a 2nd year
at this point YOU suggest Pinehurst
Aaron replies re that
harley kruse says TOC
Rich Goodale goes for Bandon, with reasons why it would be better than others inc. Pinehurst
Aaron asks some questions, which I answer and then Rich answers (I do concur that Bandon would be a good idea)
Tim W. concurs re Bandon

At this point you step in and mention the "bandwagon effect."

The data doesn't support it.  So Rich disagreed with you and suggested Bandon might be better... All I did was say Bandon was a good idea... as did Tim W.

There was no bandwagon here.  Look at all the other different ideas.  3 people agree re Bandon and that comprises a bandwagon, trendy thought?

That was the only comment I objected to.  We indeed do have our own minds.

All the best to you as well.

TH



Brian Schneider

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2001, 09:40:00 AM »
Aaron,

You've gotten a lot of great suggestions thus far.  

Dick Daley was kind enough to mention that I have done (or am I still doing it?) something quite similar to what you're looking into.

I'm not sure how valuable my advice may be, but you can feel free to e-mail more for more details about my architectural journey.  I'd be glad to help as much as I can:

bschneider126@hotmail.com


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2001, 09:50:00 AM »
Hi'ya Brian, how about an update of your journey.  Where are you at now?  If you're too modest to say, how about an e-mail?  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Brian Schneider

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2001, 10:10:00 AM »
Dick,

I've been back in the States for about a month after spending 100 days in Britain and Ireland (including a two week volunteer stint with Eddie Adams on The Old Course).  The entire trip was an invaluable experience, to say the least- roughly 85 courses visited and/or played.

Now it's time to find a home and a job- I guess all that fun comes at a price.  I'm currently in Minneapolis, but will be back in Wisconsin in a few days- got time for a game?


APBernstein

If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2001, 10:23:00 AM »
Tom Huckaby:

Good point.


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2001, 10:23:00 AM »
Brian, check your e-mail.  I got one better for you than just time for a game!
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
If You Could Study One Course for a Year...
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2001, 12:29:00 PM »
Andrew:

If by "ignorant" you meant not being aware of personal factors or failing to take them into account, then I agree with you one hundred percent.

Nobody should have to explain such things.

That aside, I assumed the spirit of Aaron's original question was "what would be the best, most unique golf experience one could have?".

Serving as a caddy at Pinehurst, NGLA, Pine Valley, St. Andrews, etc., are all fabulous choices.  My reason for recommending Bandon was the unique opportunity of working on the Pacific Dunes project.  For someone who loves golf architecture as much as you do, I can't imagine a better experience.

My apologies if you were offended by my reference to your "mistake".  We are spliting hairs among a group of wonderful choices.  Nothing more than that.

Tim Weiman