[Aaron]

I need some honest opnions on this subject. I am currently in college, and in a year plan to take a year off and work at a golf course in the States.

Other then making a living for myself, I am looking to work at a course worth studying (in pursuit of an design career). My first ideas were Pinehurst #2, Bandon/Pacific Dunes, or Crystal Downs.

Are there any suggestions you guys have, and maybe an explanation.

Aaron

[John Bernhardt]

TOC is where I would go. St. andrewws is wonderful too. And now with Prince andrew there the babe factor will be up.

[Gib_Papazian]

NGLA. No contest.

Even after editing an enormous book on the subject, I still have not absorbed all of its mysteries.

We spent 3 days in June combing the fairways and there were still at least 20 new things I noticed.

Even Karl Olson discovers new things all the time - and he is the genius who restored the golf course.

George Bahto - after years and years of study - finally solved a riddle about the 12th hole just last week.

[BarnyF]

If I were your age I would caddie at Pine Valley or any of the other great New York area courses.  New York is now more than ever easily the greatest hot bed of everything that makes life worth living than anywhere on the planet with the possible exception our great military.  Always search out conflict when you are young to strengthen your reserve before the weakness of age is on your shoulders.

[redanman]

Maybe study the first year of Applebrook?   Hmmmmmmmmm

NGLA would be quite an assignment, I agree, Gibber.

[Aaron]

NGLA totally slipped my mind (which proves I have a lot to learn).

As for PV, as I undertood it, wouldn't it be near impossible to caddie/work there? I would think caddies would be VERY experienced and all the jobs would be taken up by members sons and daughter, etc.

Any more suggestions would be great.

[Josh_Taylor]

Aaron,

I suggest spending a cold USA winter in the summer sun caddying for 4 months on the Australasian PGA Tour.

Spending weeks touring the Melbourne sandbelt is an education that you cant get anywhere else.

And, if you get a good bag, you can cover your costs plus more. Its a win win.

[Craig_Rokke]

Aaron-

I say pick a place that you feel would be a great learning experience and go for it. Don't worry about other's connections etc.
Give it your best shot!

NGLA & PV surely would be firm and fast classrooms. What area of the country do you live in?

[John_Conley]

Aaron:

I wouldn't make the decision based solely on the course.  You could get accomplish what you are trying to do in a number of places.  By making it known what you are doing upon arrival in your new city, I'll bet you can tour other area courses - perhaps even play on a Monday.

Columbus, OH:  Scarlet, Scioto, 2X Eagle, The GC, Muirfield Village
Mpls/St.P, MN:  White Bear (Ross), Golden Valley (Tillie), Somerset (Raynor), Woodhill (Ross), Hazeltine (RTJ), North Oaks (Stanley Thompson), Spring Hill (Fazio), PLUS Interlachen and Minikahda (Two Ross re-dos of Willie Watson designs that both held the U.S. Open).
Chicago:  Too numerous to list.
Long Island:  For golf, ideal.  I don't know about the living conditions.
Philly:  Ditto.

Catch my drift?  You could work somewhere with a small membership and great course and actually enjoy the work!

Good luck!  Ah, to be young again!

[Ed_Baker]

Aaron,

Two more courses to consider,Myopia and Ekwanok in Vermont. I would think that reasonably "frugal" accomodations could be found in the area around these two giants of architecture.

[Merion]

Golf Club

[Aaron]

John,
That is why I am considering a job at a course in Michigan. Even if it is not the best design wise, at least I will be in close proximity to courses like Crystal Downs and Kingsley Club.

That is the other course I would like to contact about a position. Kingsley is new, but it looks like an amazing course.

Aaron

[RJ_Daley]

Aaron, I don't think you are well served working for a whole year at any one course.  I would take a cue from Brian Schneider who hasn't posted here lately.  But, he has been on the circuit working at Sand Hills grow-in, ANGC, NGLA (I think), and I believe is currently at TOC.

If I were you, I'd do about 3 months soon at Kingsley Club in Michigan, because it is still technically in grow-in just opened stage and was designed by DeVries who spent time working at his home course (Crystal Downs) on the maintenance crew while doing turf studies.  The super at KC is a quality guy and would train you well.  Then I would work a couple weeks-months at Crystal Downs for rest of summer.  I would then head south to work at a warm season facility around overseeding time Oct-nov.  The following spring I'd put in a couple months at Bandon/Pac.  

I know this isn't a widely held view on the DG, but I think, to heck with the caddying for any significant amount of time.  Maybe a couple of weeks at a great course.  But, when you are on ground crew, you see more including various levels of players negotiate the course strategy.  But more importantly, you learn the design from the turf up in conditioning and performance- and the construction from the turf down through irrigation and drainage.  And, how various turf and soil varieties inter-relate and perform.  

Brian Schneider is my model, and if I were your age, there is no question in my mind I would follow that path.  Then I'd try to hook up with a creative GC constructor like Dan Proctor or Doak group or Hanse, like Mingay and Schackleford are doing.  

[Jeff_Lewis]

Aaron,
There are probably 50 good answers to your question. Winged Foot would be my choice.

First, I don't think any club has such a large number (36, to be exact) of such high quality holes from the golden age of golf design.

Second, the club is a very active club, in the sense that there is a tremendous amount of use by members, many of whom are good players... also for local tournaments, and for national events.

Third, there are probably 25 clubs within 2 hours drive of Winged Foot that are of the highest possible quality, with many different design styles represented, on really varied terrain.

[Aaron]

This is very interesting! Mr. Daley's plan appeals to me a lot, although it would take large amounts of planning...but I will easily put in the work.

The reason I would like to join a grounds crew rather then caddying is for the study of the golf course. I would think caddying includes 100% of your attention directed toward the golfer and his yardages/club, etc.

On grounds crew, although I would be busy, I think I could study the course more. The only thing I can see missing would not being able to see how different golfers play the holes.

Thanks to all,
Aaron

[RJ_Daley]

Trust me on this Aaron, you would be seeing all level of players play the course all day long... often dodging their attempts to do so... that is if you look up from your work once in a while  

[John_Conley]

Even if I had sniffed airplane glue when I was a kid I could have figured out that it is better to be a looper than on the grounds crew.

Reasons it was better for me?  Better pay, better hours, human interaction, less dirty work.

I don't get as much enjoyment from accomplishing tasks as I do from working with others.  Your Cooter Preferency test may differ!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Aaron,

NGLA, with an option for an additional year !

[Aaron]

Okay, so obviously there are many places to study. However, what are my chances of getting a job, assuming I requested a position at the appropriate time. How early would you send an e-mail or call about a job? Would tellling them why I wanted to work there benefit me at all?

NGLA is my first pick, along with Crystal Downs. But I would defenitely work Kinglsey, Pinehurst or Bandon/Pacific.

John,
I always liked getting dirty in the mud! But I see where you are comging from.

[APBernstein]

There are so many more factors going into this decision that which course is better to study.

Assuming you will be starting your position in August (just guessing), the courses in the North will have a relatively short season.  Courses in the South will provide a much longer season.  Also, how available is affordable living in The Hamptons?

There is a very theoretical thought-process on this board when it comes to questions of this nature.  Anyone can come up with the best course to study if you are on an unlimited budget, but that isn't the heart of the decision.  You will have the opportunity to make more caddying than you will working on the grounds crew.  I also believe you will enjoy the work much better.

My suggestion would be to go to Pinehurst.  The people are great, there is affordable living, and the course is outstanding.

Let me know if you need any more advice...

All the best,

[Aaron]

Andrew,
Of course you are right. But right now I am in the research phase. I need some starting point, hence the question. Now it comes down to finding resedence, how much, and what the area is like. This is why I ruled out Sandhills as a possible place...no matter how nice the course may be, lving in the middle of no where creeps me out.

Pinehurst was my top choice. But what is living like around there? The other bonus is year-round.

I plan to start this journey in September, so I wuld defenitly start off in the south. However, as spring rolled around I would like to setup something in Fraknfort, MI or possibly Bandon.

Aaron

[harley_kruse]

Aaron,

Can you reach beyond US shores and spend your year across the pond? That's what I'd do.

"St Andrews is a Mecca to anyone religiously captivated by golf. The Old Course has every reason to be the original course"

A year in the Old Town and studying the links would be by far the best year you could spend. Studying the Old Course, golfing history, and meeting people with the spirit of the real game flowing in their veins. Ensure you also take in the Open Championship wherever it is played.

hjk

[Bill_Perlee]

John Conley,
I resent your comment on caddying vs. working on the Grounds.  Sure the pay is better if you aren't paying taxes.  The hours are better, (unless you enjoy sunrises and having eight hours logged by early afternoon).  You could have also pointed to several other perks that clubs offer to caddies above crew members including a Caddie championship, Caddie scholarships, and Caddie dinner to name a few at our Club.

Aaron,
I highly endorse the satisfaction gained by accomplishing a task.  Once in a while golfers (and maybe a caddy or two) notice a job well done.  A call to Shinnecock or NGLA might be worth the effort, that is where I would head.  Every Club is different but it would seem to me that spending less than a season on a crew wouldn't be fair to the Supt.  Make your intentions clear from the beginning in order to maximize the experience.  
Enjoy!    

[ForkaB]

Go West, young man, go West!

While the two courses at Bandon may or may not be as good as NGLA, Crystal Downs, Pinehurst #2, etc., they do have several advantages:

1.  The architects of the courses are living, and at least one of them visits the course regularly to fine tune his design.

2.  It is likely that there will be at least one new course built nearby them in the near future whose construction you can observe from day one.

3.  Because the courses are so new you can really see the hand of each architect, whereas the hand of the architect at older courses tends to be blurred by time.

4.  Remote as it may be, it seems to be a fun place for a young kid

5.  The owner/developer is both exemplary and still actively involved in the project

6.  You will probably be able to play the courses much more often and more creatively than you would at any of the other courses that have been mentioned.

Whatever you choose and/or are able to do, enjoy.

Rich

[Aaron]

Rich,
I must admit that going to Bandon is very appealing. And all your points are very good ones to note.

However, and pardon my geographical lack of knowledge, but does Bandon close for the winter? Sorry if this is a really obvious question, but I am not sure.

I assume you mean Mr. Kidd comes back to tweak his course, or maybe it's Mr.Doak. Either way, that would setup a great way to talk to either/get on the crew for the changes, along with the new course you mentioned.

But, how much does it run someone to live in Bandon? Do you think they would have any type of deal at the resort for workers? Sort of like residence?

Aaron

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