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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
topshot bunker
« on: September 30, 2001, 08:43:00 AM »
I read about this in one of the feature interviews and am not clear about what it is. The only thing I can think of is a cross-bunker for catching a topped shot. Is that right?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

TEPaul

topshot bunker
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2001, 10:25:00 PM »
That's right. What interview did you see them mentioned?

Tommy_Naccarato

topshot bunker
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2001, 12:00:00 AM »
Ed,
You would think Tom Paul would be able to give you a little bit better description since his club used to be loaded with them some years ago.

(I just know Andrew Bernstein is going to comment on this one since he and I had an off-line discussion about it almost a year ago.)

Donald Ross was the King of the Top Shot bunkers, but if your really want to nit pick, so was CB and even further, Mother Nature.

I feel the purpose of the Top Shot bunker is close to what is demanded of one off the tee for the 2nd-7th holes on the Old Course. While the majority of those shots are in fact gorse/whin, failure to carry pays a heavy price. We aren't talking really long carries either, just enough to make a golfer think about it.

But in agreeing with Andrew to some extent, thanks to the ever advancing of equimpment, that type of bunker is close to dead for some. Still, I think they are pretty cool to still look at!


TEPaul

topshot bunker
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2001, 05:06:00 AM »
Some of the reasons many of the original "fore" (or topshot) bunkers were removed over the years by clubs (and other architects) were they were deemed to be either unnecessary genereally or unfair to weaker players (Wayne Stiles recommended that Gulph Mills remove all its topshot bunkers in 1940 for these reasons and they did it. Gil Hanse wanted to restore them in our current restoration plan but the membership didn't want the expense to restore UNNECESSARY bunkers).

Ron Prichard has speculated that Ross used them to function as something to catch topped shots so they would not run out on the hard (unirrigated) surfaces of the day to somewhere in the vicinity of a well struck shot. Apparently Ross hated topped shots! As an aside, Donald Ross, who was a very good player, used the low hooking shot almost exclusively in his own game which apparently was the shot of choice of Scottish players of his time. Also I believe that topped shots were more common in former times. Others believe that the topshot bunkers may have had a double function as sort of a foreground frame effect. Not sure I buy that one.

If you look carefully through the old aerials of many of Ross's original designs (Brad Klein's new book) you will see that Ross occasionally used bunkering in unusual and odd places (and sometimes in places that didn't really appear to come much into play). Some today might remark that is no more than bunker "eye candy". I'm not sure I agree with that either.

To digress slightly, I see that recently a new course, Pacific Dunes, was "critiqued" as overusing bunkering (placing bunkers in areas that weren't really in play). Some apparently believe that bunkering should be reserved only for places that have strategic merit and meaning. Others probably believe that bunkering, being one of the few  holdover features of the original linksland courses (the beginnings of golf), think that bunkering should be random (as in nature) and should be used anywhere and everywhere simply to tie in and make bunkering seem consistent throughout a site. In other words bunkering in places that don't much function for golf makes the bunkering that does function for golf seem more indigenous to the general site and less like simply an odd relic used only for strategic purposes and function.

Personally, I think I would endorse the latter belief, although I recognize that it may be a cost and maintenance consideration in the minds of the clubs. Much has been done, though, to classic courses and their architecture (shrunken fairways, greens etc) simply because the stewards of those clubs fail to see or misunderstand the meaning of many of the elements of the course. Often some critics don't see that some things really weren't meant to apply to their own particular games and therefore recommend their removal. They fail to see that a designer like Ross may have been one of the best designers to include features (problems and solutions) for every level of player. He may have done other things simply as an  artistic or architectural tie-in to other things that were functional! This may be one of the reasons that many of Ross's courses have been so heavily altered over the years.

There are a lot of things that go into these considerations, like our topshot bunkers, but I regret that ours were removed in the first place and I also regret that the present membership won't agree to restore them. If they restored them I doubt I would ever get in one (they were 100-125yds off the tees) but afterall they are what Ross built!


RobertWalker

  • Karma: +0/-0
topshot bunker
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2001, 05:38:00 AM »
TopShotBunkers, Cross Bunkers, Members Bunkers all make a great tasting "eye candy". My favorites are on 10 at Augusta and 18 at Oakmont.
Is Eye Candy the tackiest term that is used on this site or what?
Maybe this would be a great product.
Jaw breakers with eye decals. EYE CANDY
Blue, Green, and Red Eye Candy.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
topshot bunker
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2001, 06:00:00 AM »
Thanks Tom Paul & Tommy. I believe I saw it in the Gil Hanse interview.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

TEPaul

topshot bunker
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2001, 06:09:00 AM »
The bunkering on #10 Augusta noone would have called "eye candy" originally but now they do because not many can see the real strategic function of it. The irony is that bunkering is one of the last original bunkering left on the course. It obviously had functional strategy meaning when the course was built but the green was moved about 50-60yds farther back and away from it! The hole is 485yds and likely to be extended. One of these days that bunkering will function again as some nice cross-bunkering (ala some of Ross's and Flynn's) for some of the members and guests who can't drive the ball 345yds!

TEPaul

topshot bunker
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2001, 06:37:00 AM »
ed:

The reason I asked what interview you saw "topshot" bunkers mentioned in was more a question of clarification of terms.

I saw these bunkers in some of the old aerials of my course about five years ago. I really didn't know if there was a term or name for them or even what they were originally there for. I did a considerable amount of research on lots of things when I put together my Design Evolution booklet for Gulph Mills and one of the points of research were those bunkers (that had been removed). I saw some mention of the concept in Ron Prichard's Aronomink Master Plan and he explained that they functioned to catch "topped shots" which he claimed Ross hated.

So in my booklet I started to refer to them as "topshot" bunkers (for lack of a name or term). Gil was later hired to do our restoration master plan and the booklet was obviously something he referred heavily on to work up a restoration plan. So I guess he came to call them "topshot" bunkers too.

But I've never seen them referred to before or elsewhere as "topshot" bunkers. Recently, after reading Brad Klein's new Ross book I see that he refers to them as "fore" bunkers and maybe the older architects referred to him that way too.

Just a clarification of terms. But if you or everyone else wants to refer to them as "topshot" bunkers that's fine by me. I think it probably is a good term to indicate what they really were!


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
topshot bunker
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2001, 06:38:00 AM »
Tom Paul,
 Thats funny to think of out of control technology eventually putting the bunker at Augusta #10 back into play as a cross-bunker.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Tommy_Naccarato

topshot bunker
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2001, 07:12:00 AM »
See, Ed, I knew we could Tom to really cut loose with the Top Shot bunker stuff he knows by simply simply pushing him to it!

Wasn't the original Augusta 10th and it's famed MacKenzie bunker (which seems to be getting shallower every year) eally more of a lengthy side bunker?

John McMillan, if you are reading this, could you post that computer drawing that you did of the old 10th?

Thanx!


Don_Mahaffey

topshot bunker
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2001, 07:48:00 AM »
I haven't yet had the pleasure of traveling to Bandon, but I doubt I would find PD over-bunkered. When I traveled to Scotland, my first reaction to the bunkering was, why are there so many of them in places no one hits it. I couldn't understand why there were bunkers 50 yards from the greens on a 400 yd par 4. I realized why they were there after I had to pitch out of the gorse the first few times. Think back to the PGA, Toms was able to lay up to a perfectly flat lie at a perfect wedge distance for him. If there were a few bunkers scattered about 100 yds from the green and the ground had some movement it may have made a difference, or at least made him work at his lay-up.  Bunkers can serve a purpose without coming in to play each time one plays a hole.


Tommy_Naccarato

topshot bunker
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2001, 09:15:00 AM »
Don, I couldn't agree more.

King's Island, the Arnold Palmer course that has the 45 man-made bunkers on the 18th hole is over-bunkered.

Cypress Point Club which is located in one huge sand field or meadow is not over bunkered. Pacific Dunes is in this same class.


Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
topshot bunker
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2001, 09:21:00 AM »
The more I learn about construction, the more I wonder if these "top shot" or "fore" bunkers immediately off the tees (like at Gulph Mills) were created to generate soil to elevate tees or to help create nearby green complexes. I think we overestimate why the old architects built many of the features they did, and underestimate how many were created for basic construction needs. And most of all, the amount of dirt they used to create the gentle tie-ins and "camouflaged" bunkers is also underestimated, particularly in the case of MacKenzie and Thomas's work.

TEPaul

topshot bunker
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2001, 09:46:00 AM »
Geoff:

You are so right about that! I'm beginning to pick up occasional mention in old reports of just such a thing, not only in original design instructions but also in some redesign instructions. Stiles made mention of this in his 1940 master plan for Gulph Mills. He recommended a few new tees and such and remarked about where to get the soil and top soil--from expanded bunkers and a few new ones.

Most of the old guys were very much into construction efficiency. I've thought for a long time now that we might be outthinking their thought processes to a large degree and this kind of thing might prove that point. Other than possibly a guy like Geo. Crunmp many of these old guys thought quickly and moved quickly and did things probably for reasons much more practical than many of us realize or might like to admit.

If that was part of the reason things like "topshot" bunkering came into being,  though, it was quite clever! But I do like the randomness of it. I've often thought many of them would be amused at how seriously we take them if they could see us now!


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
topshot bunker
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2001, 10:23:00 AM »
Geoff, Bingo!
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

lkj

topshot bunker
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2001, 02:07:00 PM »
jkhg

APBernstein

topshot bunker
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2001, 06:09:00 PM »
I love being obligated to post on a certain subject.  I wish I had seen it earlier this morning when I had more time to really put my thoughts down.

I am not neccesarily against these "top-shot" bunkers.  However, I still see them as incredibly useless and a drain on a maitenence budget.  I would not advocate their removal over principal because they do serve a purpose, but that purpose is so limited that in this day, they are not needed.

I think any want to restore these is going a bit over-the-top.  Not everything that was in the ground as a result of a classic architect is neccisariy worth a restoration.  Gulph Mills is an interesting case because it is a melting pot of architects and certain styles.

Playing my own devil's advocate, what about cross-bunkers that are about 350 yards off the tee?  Wouldn't they be considered top-shot bunkers for the second shot?

I can see the argument for the restoration of these bunkers, I just don't see any particular rush or urgency for the stake of strategy.

All the best,


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
topshot bunker
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2001, 06:58:00 PM »
Geoff,
Very interesting point regarding construction considerations. Thats why I like your books so much, I'm always learning from those type of insights.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
topshot bunker
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2001, 04:37:00 AM »
Geoff -

Interesting point.  In my research for the history of Athens CC, however, the Ross "carry" bunkers were probably not built as a fill source for nearby tee or green pads.  The topshot bunker positions relative to where the excavated dirt would go for tees/greens just doesn't make sense, at least not in 1925.  

But your main point is a good one and it receives too little attention when talking about Golden Age designs.  Economy, economy, economy.  With very few exceptions, Golden Age courses were built on the cheap.  MacK's construction budget for Augusta National and its rich membership was just $100,000, which isn't a hell of a lot of money even after adjustments for inflation.    

It seems to me that the "look" of Golden Age courses was deeply affected by such concerns.  Not to say that pure strategy and aesthetics weren't also major considerations, but I don't think you will ever get a handle on someone like Ross until you undertstand that his bread and butter design projects were for small town club courses on very tight budgets.

At Athens, Ross tred to save the owner construction costs at every turn.  Fairway bunkers were to be built into the sides of existing ridges where possible and the excavated dirt was used to creat the bunker lip or other local contours.  Greens were built on fill pads created by the dirt dug out to create the greenside bunkers.  (Klein also makes this point several times in his book.)  

What is also interesting at Athens is that where Ross was able to use prexisting high points for greens (i.e., where he didn't need fill dirt to build up the green pad), he tended to indicate fewer greenside bunkers.

The Ross style we know and love today isn't just the product of his working through ageless aesthetic and strategic questions.   Ross's ever present concern with minimizing construction costs also had a great deal to do with what we now call the Ross style.

And it also might help expain the apparent randomness of some of his bunkering schemes.  

 


Ed_Baker

topshot bunker
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2001, 06:44:00 AM »
The "top shot" bunkers were a real source of debate during our restoration.At roughly $5500.00 per bunker the "function" and "need" were debated furiously.

In the end,all were rediscovered and restored under the premise of a "pure restoration".(most had been filled in by previous green committees)

The membership is generally amazed at how many tee shots end up in these bunkers.The proverbial "hard ground ball" that we all hit occasionally off the tee, now is met with at least a 1 stroke penalty.Ross' statement "there is no such thing as a poorly placed bunker",seems to be true,at our course anyway.


TEPaul

topshot bunker
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2001, 08:22:00 PM »
Ed:

Would you mind coming down here and selling  to my membership what you've apparently sold to your memberhip--pure Ross restoration, including the topshot bunker restoration? This unwillingness to do that amongst my membership was a bitter pill and real disappointment to Gil Hanse!

On the other issue of Ross and his style and technique that BCrosby sights of efficiency and cost efficiency and finding high ground for his green and tee sites, I believe that's probably true to a large extent. Matter of fact, I think that may be one of the real reasons for Ross's career-long habit and style of finding every single high tee and green site any site could offer!

Furthermore, I think that's something that Ross probably concentrated on and may very well have been almost his "starting point" when he arrived for the 2-3 days of initial routing! I believe his habit was to find as many of those "high points" as he could and then to "connect the dots" in a routing sense on the rest of the holes that didn't have that!

When Ross could not or did not get to the site for initial routing examination, I think he developed a topo technique (career-long) of doing the same thing in effect--and that was to COUNT UP THE ELEVATION LINES and place his green and tee site accordingly as much he could and then to again "connect the dots" to those areas that didn't have that!!


Ed_Baker

topshot bunker
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2001, 12:38:00 PM »
Tom,

After reading your excellent history on Gulph Mills,having witnessed the effectivness of your wordsmith skills on this site for a couple of years,I doubt that ANYONE would be up to the task of changing your memberships mind,other than yourself!

I can tell you that some of the best fun I've had, is to name some of the foozle bunkers after the first members to hit in to them after the restoration,Lo and behold two of them were the most ardent dissenters!

Imagine THAT!PERSONAL AGENDA exposed again!
What a surprise.

It is funny though to have somebody in the group hit a worm burner and to implore the ball to "get over the so and so bunker".Or after the round to hear somebody explaining how they made par out of the "John Smith" bunker. Amazing how quickly those nicknames take hold.

Of course it is a double edged sword. There is an area short and right of the desired landing area on one of our par fives that has been known as "Bakers Knoll" for some years now!


Mike_Cirba

topshot bunker
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2001, 12:50:00 PM »
Just as an interesting aside to this discussion, the 9th hole (Donald Ross) at Ron Whitten and Stephen Kay's Architects Golf Club features two top-shot bunkers 160 yards off the tee on each side of the fairway.  

I guess this is their tip of the hat to the concept, and I thought of Tom Paul and Gulph Mills immediately.


BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
topshot bunker
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2001, 01:43:00 PM »
Ed -

The same naming phenomenon occurred at Athens.  

One bunker about 160 yards out in the right rough was called "Pooley's" bunker.  Pooley was the long-time pro at Athens and a mediocre golfer, at best.  Pooley, of course, was very embarrassed about his name being associated with a topshot bunker.  Word has it that one evening he won a big pot in a poker game (Pooley made more money playing cards than he made giving lessons or selling equipment) and allowed the losers to take back their chits if they would remove the bunker.  So they did.

Another, similar, story at Athens.  Two women who often played together always seemed to find a topshot bunker on no. 5, a par 3.  As with Pooley, that bunker took both their names (Mary Ellen and Jane's bunker).  Also like Pooley, they hated it.  When one of their husbands became the greens committee chairman, his first act was to fill in the bunker.  I have been told that one evening it just disappeared.  No meetings, no votes, it just disappeared.


TEPaul

topshot bunker
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2001, 02:14:00 PM »
Well, if that doesn't just take the cake! These poor old classic golf courses are nothing more than the whipping boys and the dumping grounds for all manner of oddball humanity!

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