Loss of Ball

[JakaB]

Why are courses that you face few if any loss of ball opportunities considered designed for all abilities...Pinehurst II has to be one of the most difficult courses I have ever played...sure I had the same ball after 36 but she was all worn out...what a farce if some 27 handicap thinks they had a succesful day based on balls kept.

That said...what is the cost of loss of ball to the golfing public in increased maintenace costs and time.   Recently one of our most happily married and most noble posters told of looking a full 5 minutes because it was his right to do so....how natural do woods cleaned of all leaves and underbush really appear....is it time for the USGA to reduce the penalty for loss of ball to just stroke and not distance....its the way some play as is....so why not save all of us a bunch of time and regret...save supers a hell of a lot of work...and just make the game a little better for the rest of us.   Drop the ball where she was last seen under penalty of one stroke and move on....no less noble champion would ever be crowned and us common people who like to play by the rules could get home a little earlier.

[JohnV]

Jakab,

In 1950 the R&A changed to distance only and went back in 1952.  In 1960, the USGA changed to distance only and went back in 1961.  In both cases, it was considered a major mistake.

The problem with changing the penalty to stroke only is that you have to have a reference point for where to drop it.  If you look at where the average joe goes and looks for his ball, I'd bet that he starts 10 to 30 yards ahead of where it is eventually found.

The average golfer will still not play a provisional and will still look for the ball because he doesn't want to lose the $4.00 for the Pro V1 he bought in the pro shot to replace the ones he lost the last time he played.  In everyday play, most people do just drop a ball and add 2 strokes or some such thing.   Of course, if you see where they drop it, I'd bet in most cases it has no relevance to where the ball was lost.

If you want to speed up play, lest change it from 5 minutes to 2 minutes, teach them to hit a provisional and take away their carts. IF they are walking, they can walk straight to where the last saw it and have a lot better chance of finding it than if they drive down the cart path, then over to their cart partner's ball, wait for him to hit and then try to remember where the heck they hit their ball.

[Jim Sweeney]

It's been tried, and was a dismal failure. Too many disagreements about where the original was lost (of course, if one knew where it was lost, it wouldn't be.)

From a rules perspective, given that the ball is lost (i.e., we don't know where it is) there is no logical place to drop a replacement ball. The only logical next step is to return to the spot where on last played and start over.

As for the penalty shot, it is not so much a punishment to the player but a concession to one's opponent or the rest of the field because of the player's error.

The USGA, R&A, PGA, PGA Tour and other interested parties have been round and round on this one over the last fifty years and find no better way of handling a lost ball or ball out of bounds. (A ball out of bounds, since it is not on the course, has the same status as a lost ball.)

The sad fact that many people do not follow this rule is no argument for changing it. Following the rules is optional, and if some people find that not doing so works for them, so be it. Many people choose to not follow lots of rules, so using that logic would lead to chaos.

In this circumsatance, it would be better for one to understand how to use a Provisional Ball- one can play under the rules, applying all the provisions of stroke and distance, and maintain an acceptable pace of play.

[JakaB]

I don't see declaring where a ball was lost any worse than declaring where a ball last crossed a hazard...I personally find red stakes to be a moral disaster but a success in keeping play moving.   Before I am reminded I do remember that guy lost his ball at the B.O. last year...and I might go so far to say that was not equitable because if he were a larger name the gallery would have found it.  Golf and our culture are so different than in 1960 that I wonder if what did not work then may work now.

[JakaB]

What if loss of ball was stroke only for match play and handicap purposes...that way there would no field to protect and a match would be kept more interesting after an errant tee shot.....drama and quick play...where do I sign up.

[JohnV]

At least hazards are marked so that I can know where to start from.

If I hit my ball deep into the woods, do I drop on in the woods near where I lost it or do I drop at the edge of the woods?  If the woods have lots of leaves and brush in there do I have to drop it in the brush where I might not have a shot?  If I get to drop it at the edge of the woods, is that line of the trunks or the edge of the overhang?

Since many courses maintain their rough at 2 to 3 inches, that would mean that the normal rough is now an area where I drop for a lost ball.  Do I drop in the rough "approximately" where I lost the ball or out at the edge of it on the fairway?

[Mike Hendren]

Shivas,

If I'm not mistaken, that is a local rule at Sand Hills.

Mike

[JakaB]

JohnV,

I would go with what people I see use...The nearest point of entry with a clear sight to the hole....no that sucks.  I would think you would use the applicable rules of a lateral hazard as Shivas says above.

Now that I am happy with this rule just being for match play...which is all I play btw...I would be happy with..A drop shall be declared at a point deemed equitable by both parties given if such point can not be agreed upon the stroke and distance rule may be applied....

Shivas,

Have you ever played a ball out of the high fescue to only lose it further up in the fescue...ie..Wolfrun....damn that is a bitch...I once came to number nine at Wolfrun trailing by two strokes in a nasau bet and made six to win by two....my opponent didn't advance the ball ten yards and we couldn't find it....then drop whack, whack and a smooth 10.

The stroke only rule for loss of ball is most probably best used on the rare occasion when a ball goes away for no reasonable purpose and going back to the tee is rude and out of the question for the rest of the people on the course....we all have it happen and I bet the majority of posters on this site just take loss of hole while giving our friends a free drop...but thats just us.

[A_Clay_Man]

The problem with making everything lateral is that it isn't fair to the memberships handicap. The scores turned in would not reflect an actual round of golf, but some other game.

Plus, if someone(a newer golfer) asks the ruling, and you know it, and then you don't share it. That ain't golf either!

 It can be frustrating as all hell to explain options to someone over and over who isn't in competition, But how else does someone learn? By feel?

What's so telling about us humanoids is how the novice (and even not so novice) interprets what they do know. Usually giving him or herself the most preferable of all lies and/or evils.

[JohnV]

In everyday play, do whatever you want.  Just record the score you would most likely have made had you played by the rules for handicap purposes.

In a tournament, especially a stroke play one, you have to have a known place to work from so for a lost ball, you have to play stroke and distance (or distance only when the rule was different.)

In match play, you probably would concede the hole, that is unless your opponent couldn't find his ball either.  Then, if it is a real event and you both agree to just drop one you would be DQ'ed for agreeing to waive a rule.  If you both just agreed to call the hole halved, you would have no problems and could just drop a ball to play out the hole.

As for marking long grass a lateral hazard, there is a decision (33-8/35) that says this is not allowed.

The other problem with marking them as a hazard is that the rules of a hazard now apply.  If you find your ball and want to play it, you can't ground your club, you can't move loose impediments and you don't get relief from imovable obstructions among other things.

[ForkaB]

John (and the USGA and R&A) generally have it nailed as to why any of JakaB or Shivas' ideas would not work in proper stroke play tournaments.  I could argue for a penalty of distance (i.e. re-tee/drop) only, but it's been tried and found wanting.  The one thing I think could be changed is limiting the search time to 2 minutes rather than 5.  This could speed up play significantly.  In the real world if you don't find your ball within 2 minutes, the likelihood is that you dont WANT to find it!

Of course, as John said, what you do in the privacy of your friendly games is none of the USGA's (or even the Supreme Court's) business, just as long as you remember to "record the score you would most likely have made had you played by the rules for handicap purposes......"

I like this concept of "virtual rules!"

[JakaB]

JohnV or anybody,

Do you think the definition of failure has change to such a large degree that what was attempted in 1960 has no real bearing today.  You say to do what you want and record the score that you would have had if you play by the rules...given a double is the most I can take anyway we already do that...if I play by the rules or not.

I just played four days of two man best ball and never posted a score....is this right because if it is not I got me some problems...but not near the problems of the high handicappers that have won their flight for several years in a row...of which I am not a member thanks be jesus.

[ForkaB]

JakaB

You MUST post those scores (using the strict USGA "the score you would most likely have made had you played by the rules" standard).  Just use your fertile imagination when posting "scores" and maybe you will win your flight next year!

Your Pajo

Ricardo

[Jeff Goldman]

Shivas,

Secretly related to JFK??  Does AKennedy golf?

[JohnV]

Barney,

The USGA wants all scores posted.  Some clubs post "penalty scores" for players who don't post.  Those even par scores can really do a lot to lower your handicap.

The distance only penalty was found wanting because it was felt that a ball hit out of bounds deserved more punishment than that.  A ball that is lost needs to be treated equally to a ball that is out of bounds, because if it is lost, you don't know if it is out of bounds or not.

If you change the stroke and distance to distance only for OOB and LB you would also have to change it to that for the options under unplayable and ball in a water hazard.  No big deal, but there was a case when the rule was in effect, where a player in the Open plugged his ball under the lip of a bunker at the Postage Stamp, took his unplayable back to the tee and either holed it for a 2 or knocked it stiff and tapped in for 3 (I forget which.)  It was felt that this was an insufficient penalty so stroke and distance was re-established.  Think about it.  There was no way he could have made a 2 (or probably even a 3) from where he was, but by just going back to the tee he could.

[DMoriarty]

Why are courses that you face few if any loss of ball opportunities considered designed for all abilities...

Because it is more enjoyable to try to golf your ball than to try to find your ball.  

[JakaB]

JohnV,

Thank you for a perfect example of why the rule should never be amended....me thinks many today would hit ball after ball and only find those they choose...compounding the slow play problem.

DavidM,

My wife just asked me why the hell I am so happy today and I think it is part do to the fact I can write such a poorly constructed sentance and somebody actually understands...next time I face loss of ball it will be just a little bitter sweet thinking about that damn width everybody so enjoys.

[JohnV]

Shivas,

One of the questions that used to be on the PGA/USGA Rules Workshop exam was: True or False: A player putts his ball too hard and it runs off the green and into a bunker.  The player may declare the ball unplayable and place it back at the spot from which he putted, adding a one stroke penalty.

The answer is true.  If it was just distance, he could do it for no penalty.

[Bill_McBride]

I agree that something needs to be done about the lost ball "go back to the tee and hit 3" rule.  Good example: I'm playing with my friends who are members at the Valley Club. We are walking.  I make a 3 putt par at #1 and then hit a smart draw around the corner on #2.  Walk up there and never did find the ball.  So I walk back to the tee while my hosts are p.o.'d at me for doing so.  The ball was either lost or OB, I couldn't determine which.  Short of walking back to the tee, all I could do if the rule were changed was drop one where it went out of sight and add a stroke, right?  That seems more fair to me than pissing everbody off by walking 220 yards back to the tee with smoke coming out of my ears.  At least there wasn't a group behind us.  Luckily this happened at the Valley Club.

[Steve Lang]

Bill McB..

why didn't you hit a provisional?

[Bill_McBride]

I didn't hit a provisional because it's a dogleg left and I hit a draw that flew the left bunker and looked to be perfect if a bit left.  In retrospect it would have been a good idea.  But the point is that a lost ball (or OB) 220 yds away means a long walk back if you don't think it's a problem and it turns out it is.

[tonyt]

In all my years of caddying (out of the six days, it is only on the weekends you usually have large galleries who can help out), I NEVER met a pro who had to walk back more than once a year.

The principal here is to hit provisional, unless you are near CERTAIN of it's whereabouts. It takes much less time to hit 3-4 provisionals (5-6 on extreme days) than it does to walk back and reload just once.

If you are having a casual round with your friends, fine, just throw a ball down and hit it, unless the stakes are high. In competition play, reload.

So if you can't see it, and have no reason to be certain it is in the fairway, or in a fairly open area of minimal rough or something, hit a provisional. Nobody has an excuse for walking back if they couldn't see their ball from where they played and didn't hit another.

[Bill_McBride]

Here's a rules question.  In the situation I was in above, the ball could have been either OB or lost.  Do I hit two provisionals?  Of course I didn't think the ball was either!

[JohnV]

Bill,
The official wording of Rule 27-2 is "If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play a provisional ball in accordance with Rule 27-1."  This means if you think there is a chance that it may be lost or OB you may hit a provisional using the stroke and distance procedure found in the first part of rule 27.

You only play one provisional as it doesn't matter if it is lost or OB.

If you find your ball in bounds or find out that the area where you lost it is a water hazard, you must immediately abandon the provisional and continue with the original or procede under the water hazard rule.

If you play your provisional from beyond where the original was likely to be (before finding the original) the provisional becomes the ball in play even if you then find the orginal.

If you find the original and decide that is unplayable and decide to use the stroke and distance option under that rule, you can not use the provisional but must go back to where you played before and play another ball.

Basically the rule allows you to get another ball out there to save time, but not give you the choice of which ball you want to play.