[ForkaB]

Sorry Ran (and Rich ) but I haven't played Cypress Point.  I have walked bits of it during the "Crosby", and from those brief views and the opinions of others I respect who have played it I would speculate that, overall, it meets the criteria at least as well as Dornoch.  I'll give you an update if and when I play it!

[ForkaB]

Ran

Pursuant to my last post, you did not ask the question, but I have played Pebble Beach, many times, and found it interesting to compare it to Dornoch, on my criteria.

PB is slightly better, perhaps, on WYSIWYG and diversity, but really doesn't accommodate the ground game, and has some greens with a minimal number of good pin positions (e.g. 14, 17).  It is, of course, a much more difficult course than RDGC, particularly for the acccomplished player.  I didn't include this as a criterion, and probably should have, along, with "naturalness," as suggested by Tom MacW (Dornoch wins that latter one from Pebble).

Cheers

[THuckaby2]

All right, I shall jump in here.  I can't help it.

I've played Royal Dornoch 4 times, Pine Valley NEVER, but most importantly, I played Cypress Point and Pacific Dunes in the same week about a month ago.

The talk in this thread is thus all VERY interesting to me.

Ran, I know you asked Rich for this, but here is one humble hack's take on Cypress v. Dornoch, using Rich's criteria.  Rich, forgive me for I am about to sin.

1. Wholeness. A “course.” This is to say something that flows, naturally and seamlessly, over the land. Tee to green to tee to green, etc.
I'd call this a wash, but if anything give a slight edge to Cypress, as it has got to be perfection and to me RD loses its way at the 16th tee - I'm not sure the natural flow would go up that hill.

2. WYSIWYG. What you see is what you get. Holes which, even if partially blind, make it clear, from their topography and the placement of hazards and the green, what the risks and rewards are of shots of varying intensity across varying angles.
Again, Cypress is perfection here.  There truly are no blind shots, even if you can't see where your ball lands every time... the landforms perfectly indicate where to play the ball (ie over the side of the dune on #8 tee).  I see no problems with RD in this account either, though.

3. Subtle deceptions. Within the context of 2 above, the addition of little tricks which reward experience, require you to think, and punish you if you do not.
Good God, we're talking MacKenzie here!  One could spend a lifetime at Cypress and still learn cool new bounces... however, I'd say the same goes for Dornoch which I'm sure Rich can confirm.  Once again though, you're comparing Cypress (perfection) against Dornoch (great).  No offense to Dornoch, but....

4. Diversity. A mixture of shot values required, in terms of clubs to be used and the shape of the shots to be executed with those clubs.
I found myself playing nothing but "links golf" - ie low runners - at Dornoch, where I hit every type of shot imaginable at Cypress.  Again, edge to Cypress.

5. Greens which accommodate both the aerial game and the ground game.
See above - edge to Cypress.

6. Greens which give higher rewards to properly executed “aerial” shots, with commensurately higher risk.
#15 and 16 Cypress.  Cased closed.  Nothing like that at Dornoch.

7. “Lines of charm” closely linked to hazards. Rough which borders the “fast lane” off the tee. Greenside bunkers which eat into the putting surface.
Both courses incredibly great in this area, but #2 Cypress as an example carries the day.  Tiny slight edge to Cypress.

8. A balance between the use of bunkers and swales and rough and natural watercourses as “hazards.”
NO need to even elaborate.  Cypress has got to be the best course in the entire world in this feature.  

9. Greens which have at least 4 good-excellent pin positions, and which allow alternate ways of approaching possible pins.
Cypress could have the best set of greens in the world.  Again, Dornoch is wonderful here, but falls short.

10. Gut feel. You can’t always define a 3*** course, but you know one when you see one.
They both are absolutely incredible... but... Dornoch doesn't have the one "drop you to your knees" shot that Cypress does at 16 tee.

Don't get me wrong - I'd call BOTH courses strong *** in Rich's scale.  And hell, out of courses I've played on this earth, Cypress is #1 and Dornoch may well be #2 (though others might compete for that).  In any case, consider the hairs split.  But just as Pacific Dunes might lose out in comparison to some of the world's greats AND STILL BE A WONDERFUL COURSE ITSELF, here's a case where Dornoch comes out on the short end.

Give me my penance, Father Rich.

And Tom Paul, I'd love to discuss this further with you as I didn't even begin to address Pacific Dunes... don't know if you heard, but I too am going to be in your area roughly the same time as Rich.  I've been corresponding with Bill V and Mike C re potentially meeting them... Would love to somehow hook up with you also if you are available.  I sent you an email re this awhile ago... probably got lost.  I'll try again.

TH
tom.huckaby@clorox.com

Ran, you ask for comparison of Cypress Point and Royal Dornoch based on Rich's criteria.  I likely don't notice the same things you guys do, but here is one humble hack's attempt.  Rich, you might not want to read this...

[ForkaB]

Tom

No need for forgiveness.  Speaking your mind is never a sin, even if you may be wrong

How about Cypress vs. Pacific and/or Bandon Dunes?

[THuckaby2]

Thanks, Rich.

Cypress v. PD or BD... well, that's not a fair fight.  And remember I LOVED both Oregon courses.

What was interesting to me is playing PD 4 days after Cypress, I felt NO letdown.  I swear to ya, PD held up its own remarkably well.

But in a head to head comparison based on your criteria, each course loses every point.

I'd rate each higher than you do, though... but comparisons to the #1 course in the world, well...

All I will say further is each of PD and BD compared slightly better to your (our) beloved Dornoch....

This hurts me to even write.  Comparisons amongst these great courses... It just hurts to say anything remotely negative about places I love so much.  Believe me, Dornoch does fall in that category.

TH

[ForkaB]

Keep writing through the pain, Tom.  I'm sure Dr. Katz would concur that it is good therapy for a condition such as yours .

PS--How about Dornoch vs. your beloved Coyote Creek?  Can I maybe get a halved match out of that titanic struggle?

[Mike_Cirba]

I've tried this Michelin system on for size and simply find the lack of granularity to be the achilles heel.

I've played neither CP or PD, but are they both ***?  Is CP a *** and PD a **?  If PD is a **, what company does it keep?  If CP is a ***, how many *** are there?  

There are 16,000+ courses in the US alone.  Are we saying that 15,900 of them aren't worth visiting, 50 of them are *, 40 are **, and 10 are ***?  

What's the value in that?  Why don't we just look at the Top 100 rankings if that's all we're trying to find?

[THuckaby2]

Hey, come on, that was below the belt!  You get RD as "beloved" and I am stuck with Coyote Creek?  Ahhh, I curse the fate of my reality...  I guess that's what I get from trying to share her with you... "your (our" beloved RD"...  Mike Cirba, take note.  The public CCFAD is indeed my home.

But before this goes too far, read again what I said above.  I didn't do MATCH PLAY, I compared based on your criteria.  And that being said, the ONLY course RD loses to is Cypress.  I called it the #2 course I've ever played!

I am a good penitent/disciple, but I can't change the greatest course in the world, which exists an hour's drive from my door, but a world away in reality.

I'm willing to go live at Dornoch though and make this a fairer fight.  Can you watch my kids for a year?

TH

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,

Great analysis of CPC to Dornoch, and though we are talking shades of excellence, I would agree that CPC and Dornoch don't deserve the same grade.

Mike's point is right - a *** sytem is not enough. Maybe a ***** system would do it but I like the 10 point system currently in vogue simply because there is much to be learned in splitting hairs.

Also, Tom, if I am reading your post correctly, not only do you give PacDunes the edge over Dornoch but also Bandon Dunes - can you walk me through your Bandon vs Dornoch comparison?

[ForkaB]

Mike

See my Sep. 28 post replying to Tom MacW.  To me, roughly 3-4,000 courses around the world are very much worth playing:

20-30 are 3*** ("Worth the Journey")
50-100 or so are 2** ("Worth a Detour")
3-400 are 1* ("Very Good examples of their type")
2500-3000 are 0* ("Worth a visit")

The rest are "Avoidable" (but all of these are playable)

To me 3*** courses run the range from Pine Valley to Turnberry
2** Courses would include courses like TPC-Sawgrass, Royal Lytham, Harbour Town, Pasatiempo, Spyglass, in addition to the ones mentioned in my earlier posts.
1* places would include Lahinch, Stanford, Winchester, Royal North Devon, etc.)
0* places would include such courses as Spanish Bay, Brora, Elie, Ponte Vedra Club, Stow Acres (N&S), Killarney, Crail, etc.

I won't mention the avoidable places, given that I am on record as saying there is no such thing as a "bad" golf course.  However, one should recognise that in the "real" Michelin Guide, only a fraction of the restaurants in Frnace are listed (e.g. 0-3***) and you can eat VERY well in France without ever setting foot in a place which is listed in the Red Guide.

This is all granular enough for me.  I personally think you learn much more trying to argue whether or not PD is 2 or 3*** than whether it is "better" or "worse" than BD, or any other course.

Tom

Glad to see you changed your mind.  The therapy must be working .

Tom

[THuckaby2]

Ran - it just shows what a shitty writer I am.  You got most of what I was trying to say but not all!  I meant to say that while Cypress does indeed win out over Dornoch, and relatively decisively, Pacific Dunes just comes closer... but still loses to Dornoch.  Hell, even that might not make sense.  Let's put it this way, using Rich's criteria:

Cypress over Dornoch in all 10 points, in varying degrees, all very close.

Dornoch over PD, didn't do it point by point yet, but I'd bet it would be closer than one would think.

Now, as for BD v. Dornoch, I'll have to do it point by point by my gut feel is Dornoch wins out, by a closer margin...

Dammit, I am being called away to work stuff.  Be back later.  This work thing really does cut into one's day!

TH

[THuckaby2]

OK, back to good stuff here...

I can see where I caused confusion. Mea culpa.

I said way above "All I will say further is each of PD and BD compared slightly better to your (our) beloved Dornoch...."

and I swear to ya, what I meant was that PD and BD compared to Dornoch quite closely, better than either would compare to Cypress (which is gonna win any comparison I do... I have yet to see the great US east coast courses!).  This was meant as to show the high esteem in which I hold Dornoch.  But jeez I need to be more careful in my writing...

So no Rich, Dornoch doesn't lose every comparison I do, just ONE:  against Cypress.  And I was not changing my mind here, like I say I just need to write better!

Now all this being said, here's how I see Pacific Dunes v. Dornoch:

1. Wholeness. A “course.” This is to say something that flows, naturally and seamlessly, over the land. Tee to green to tee to green, etc.
Dornoch wins this one by a VERY slight margin.  I just found the one walk on PD from 11 to 12 to be weird... out of character... small quibble and I have no idea how it could have been done "better" and I'm sure Doak had his reason for this... In any case all of these comparisons are gonna be determined by very small things - this to me was more of a weakness than the weirdness of 16 at Dornoch.

2. WYSIWYG. What you see is what you get. Holes which, even if partially blind, make it clear, from their topography and the placement of hazards and the green, what the risks and rewards are of shots of varying intensity across varying angles.
Draw - both are great in this, to me.

3. Subtle deceptions. Within the context of 2 above, the addition of little tricks which reward experience, require you to think, and punish you if you do not.
Draw - match up #6 or 12 at PD v. Foxy and while Foxy wins, it's not by much!  Then to me, PD has more "quantity" of these aspects - there were holes at Dornoch which to me were straightforward... there are such at PD, but more at Dornoch.

4. Diversity. A mixture of shot values required, in terms of clubs to be used and the shape of the shots to be executed with those clubs.
Both great, call it a draw.

5. Greens which accommodate both the aerial game and the ground game.
I didn't find much aerial game available at either course....

6. Greens which give higher rewards to properly executed “aerial” shots, with commensurately higher risk.
Again, neither does well on this point - these are both courses geared toward the ground game.

7. “Lines of charm” closely linked to hazards. Rough which borders the “fast lane” off the tee. Greenside bunkers which eat into the putting surface.
Both EXCELLENT in this area, but maybe a very slight edge to Dornoch.  I kept being surprised to find myself in rough there...

8. A balance between the use of bunkers and swales and rough and natural watercourses as “hazards.”
Hmmm.. not much water or hazards in play at either course... hard to figure this one.. call it a draw.

9. Greens which have at least 4 good-excellent pin positions, and which allow alternate ways of approaching possible pins.
Dornoch rules in this category... not that PD isn't excellent, but I found the greens at Dornoch to be almost mystical.

10. Gut feel. You can’t always define a 3*** course, but you know one when you see one.
Doroch is... but so is PD, for me.  I give no advantage in gut feel to either course.  I had the same excitement on #1 tee at PD that I did at Dornoch... and that's a big thing, given PD is thousands of miles closer to me.

So call that a slight "win" for Dornoch.

Next up, BD v. Dornoch.  I'd have to say if anything Dornoch will win by a very very slightly larger margin.

Hope this helps.  Man this is comparing diamonds to rubies to emeralds... for me anyway.

TH

ps - Rich, you hold OClub Lake in VERY high regard, obviously.  Please do NOT ask me to compare that against any of these, I may never get invited back.  But I just point this out to say to each his own....

[ForkaB]

Tom

I understood you had misspoke, but I jumped on it anyway just to fluster you!  After all, what are friends for, anyway!

Hear what you say about RDGC vs. PD and BD, and while I don't agree with a lot of your analysis, your conclusions are just about right!  All 3 courses are "great."  It's just (IMHO) that Dornoch is enough greater than the 2 others (which I rank about even--maybe even giving the nod to BD in my more malevolent moments!) so as to put it at a separate level.  I never intended the 10 criteria to be the basis for a "Celebrity Death Match" sort of comparison, anyway--more as a guide to what "greatness" is all about.

In that regard, I look for real "outlyers" at any course pretending to greatness.  At Dornoch I see many of these outlyers, particularly 5 and 6--the strategic interplay between aerial and ground game shots (BTW, can you really play the ground game on 15-18 at CPC? ).  AT PD, I don;t see as many.  Finally, my view of OC-Lake is pretty conventional.  I put it near the cusp of being in the top 30 or so in the world and Golf puts it at #32.

Rich

PS--I can spin a VERY good story about the greatness of the 16th at Dornoch, even though it is probably the worst hole on the course.  Check out my "My Home Course" write-up for a preview.....

Cheers

[THuckaby2]

Gotcha, Rich.  We're not as far apart on this as it would seem.  I am still reeling over the Coyote Creek line though!  We all have our foibles and God help me I do like the Valley course there.

As for 16 Dornoch, we've been through it many times before!  You have indeed educated me, and hell I don't HATE the hole, but of the 36 at Cypress and Dornoch, that is the weakest hole and it isn't close.  I'll take 18 at Cypress (which many revile) over 16 at Dornoch.

In any case, please explain:  is it a requirement for a great course that every single hole have to have BOTH aerial and ground elements?  Be careful here... there are plenty of holes where Dornoch disallows the aerial game (for a smart player)... So while I'd say hell yes, one does have to carry the ball in the air on 15-17 at Cypress, the ground game is so favorable on so many other holes there, I like the variety!  Sorry my friend, however you word this, Dornoch is gonna lose to Cypress.  Cypress has the by-play of Dornoch 5 and 6 in spades, PLUS has the heroic nature of the aerial requirements of 15-17.  Again, Dornoch is wonderful, but comes up short here.  And that's no disprect to Dornoch.

I also don't understand the term "outlyer"... help me man, I'm trying to get this!

As for OClub Lake, OK, gotcha.  You just called that a "strong 3" in a previous post... I'd give it a 3 most likely, but in comparison to many others it is gonna fall short... All right, I've said enough lest I tempt Armenia wrath.

TH

[ForkaB]

Tom

"Outlyer" means something so good that it is hard to compare against any other example.  E.g. the green contours at ANGC, the "wholeness" of TOC, the unceasing shot making demands of Pine Valley, the flexibility of Dornoch (why anyone with your aerial game ever tried to play the ground game at RDGC is beyond me!), my "CLAW" putting stroke vs. Crenshaw, Faxon, Mickelson, Locke, etc.

You will understand, someday, Grasshopper.  Look at Slag.  He was once a seemingly forlorn soul and now he continuosuly surpasses me in mellowness, lines of charm, and the ability to do a mean two-step on the slippery railroad tie walkways at Pacific Dunes......

Cheers

[Paul Turner]

Dornoch's trump card must be its "naturalness": how beautifully that naturalness lends itself to intriguing golf shots with that sequence of plateau greens.

Along with St Andrews, it looks the least touched and most natural of the all the great links courses.

Does anyone know how much is pure nature and where is the hand work of man (other than bunkers)?  

[ForkaB]

Paul

What I know about Dornoch is mostly by osmosis since the last book I read (on anything!) was several years ago, but from what I think I "know":

--the 2nd green was probably man made.  It is the creation of Sutherland rather than Ross (visiting on a "busman's holiday"), who wanted a punchbowl green near the whins on the right.
--the 6th green was probably cut out of the slope of the whins.
--the 10th green was probably "pushed up"
--notable bumps (e.g. to the left of the 12th green and right of the 16th green were probably man made, particularly the former (Sutherland's hump)

As for the rest (other than the level tees)all seems pretty natural to me, but I'm sure some of the scholars on this site will prove me wrong .

[Paul Turner]

Another great aspect of Dornoch is that the 16th is the only uphill hole.  And the routing is designed so you play 3 thrilling downhill holes 3,8,17. (probably why the 16th gets knocked even harder than it deserves)

The extra climbing being done between holes.

[ForkaB]

Paul

The 5th is also a thrilling downhill tee, particularly from the medal tee that Ran has never been allowed to play from .

[THuckaby2]

Rich - my education continues... BUT... ah screw it, I'm not gonna let you pull my chain AGAIN.  

You want outlyers?  Cypress has 18 holes worth of them.  Some day, you'll understand.

Then again, maybe not.  A man who can't enjoy Bandon might not receive the enlightenment Cypress provides.

TH

ps - I played the aerial game each time at Dornoch because the turf was like rock and the wind was blowing 50 freakin' mph!   I suppose I do need to see it on a calm, wet day.

pss - GREAT message above.  You are so damn clever... I ought to learn not to mix it up with you on the word front.

[ForkaB]

Tom H

Since you earlier said......

"I found myself playing nothing but "links golf" - ie low runners - at Dornoch"

and now say.....

"I played the aerial game each time at Dornoch"

.....it is clear that Dornoch is far superior to Cypress and all other courses on my criteria 5 and 6 because it accommodates both the aerial and the ground games not only in reality but in your mind

Rich

PS--if you really think I didn't like Bandon you need to demand a refund from your Evelyn Wood instructor....

[THuckaby2]

Rich, you got me again.

I need to type slower and not try to work as I do this.

Obviously I meant I played nothing but the GROUND GAME my rounds at Dornoch.  But you knew that, you sly dog!

Of course, I got you also with the Bandon comment.

I am feeling quite triumphant.

TH

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