[Bill_McBride]

re: pin-location indicators.
I don't care for the tri-color flag system, but love the two pin-location indicators at Valley Club of Montecito -- the 15th and 18th are both uphill, semi-blind shots because of the uphill nature. 15th has two tiers, 18th is quite deep. Each hole has a wooden arrow fastened to a eucalyptus tree about 80-100 yards out. If the arrow points up, the pin's back. If it points down, the pin's up.  Very subtle, very helpful.  Very cool, wonder if Dr. MacK put them up himself?

[Charles_P.]

Scott-

Do you think we'll get Pat's answer before or after he posts his pictures of the 1st at NGLA?  

[Dan Kelly]

JM -- What does "With 64 of the Top 100 Private Golf Clubs in the US represented there" mean?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

Why do you feel a need to have information in addition to a flag stick (pin) in the green ?  Why the need for maps, color, codes, indicators, secondary flags, or other devices ?  How do the courses in Scotland provide additional pin location information?

Kevin,

How do you clean your clubs during a round if you don't take a wet towel when you carry your bag ?  At this course, caddies may be mandatory in order to insure for the success of a very good caddy program.

Robert Walker,

Maps, codes, color schemes, secondary flags,
indicators on the tee, etc., etc..

Barny F,

Socks and/or peds are not required.

Ghetto/rapper shorts are not permited.

JM,

I've heard nothing but great things about
Secession, but that's not the course I had in mind.  I am glad to hear of other courses with similar setups.

Bill McBride,

Even NGLA cheats on the third hole.

Scott and Charles P.

I told my admin asst to ship the photos overnight for posting, unfortunately a good friend of hers lost her husband at the WTC and she's been distracted to say the least, and she shipped them regular mail, which has been slow lately.  I am hoping to get them up as soon as the Postal Service delivers.

Derek and Brad,

Not a C & C project.

et. al.,

Doesn't the presence of Tee signs/yardage markers and ball washer/spike cleaner/garbage
trash cans mar the natural setting of a golf course ?  Shouldn't they be minimlized or eliminated ?

Does NGLA and Shinnecock have Tee Signs and hole yardage markers complete with handicap allowances ?

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Mucci --

You write: "Why do you feel a need to have information in addition to a flag stick (pin) in the green ? Why the need for maps, color, codes, indicators, secondary flags, or other devices?"

Because I'm spoiled? Maybe.

Because I don't belong in this august company? Possibly.

But more seriously: Because information makes the game more fun, in my view.

I, for one, like to know that I'm, say, 145 yards from the center of the green -- and that, therefore, if I hit a good solid 8-iron in still conditions, I'll be near the center of the green. I, possibly because of some character defect, don't enjoy hitting a perfectly struck shot and then learning that my estimate of the distance was off by 25 yards. Call me crazy!

As I said the first time, I'd be PERFECTLY content to have no information of any kind at my home course, where I could develop local knowledge of my own -- by way of playing the course in various conditions, and thereby learning what the various distances are. But if I'm paying the substantial fees so often demanded these days to play the better public and resort courses -- courses that, by definition, I won't play often enough to develop much local knowledge, and which, almost by definition, do not offer the services of knowledgeable caddies -- I appreciate information beyond that which my eyes can provide, so that my good shots (if any) will be properly rewarded.

So I appreciate knowing how far I am from the center of the green. And I appreciate knowing whether I'm looking at a front, center or back pin -- especially if, when I'm looking at it, all I can see is the flag. (I'd appreciate, too, knowing how deep the greens are, and I wish more courses would put that information on their scorecards. On a lot of modern greens, there might be a three- or four-club difference between a front pin and a back pin, and a first-time player will have no way to know that.)

I appreciate having a map on the scorecard, so that I can know about the blind bunkers and other hazards of which the architect has given no hint.

I don't have enough experience in Scotland to answer your last question. I do know that the one time I played the Old Course at St. Andrews, I was lucky enough to be paired with a couple of old-duffer part-time caddies, who adroitly guided me from tee to green -- and that, absent their guidance, I'd have been utterly lost. Granted, I prefer old-duffer part-time caddies to tee-box signs ("Brought To You By The Old Tom Morris Golf Shop") -- but I've noticed that few courses are kind enough to offer you old-duffer part-time caddies at the first tee.

[George Pazin]

Dan -

I guess it all depends on your outlook. The funniest golf moment of my recent trip to Vegas occurred on the 18th when I refused to believe the yardage guide's distance for a required carry. I turned smugly to my friends & said, "There is no way that carry is 210 yards & I intend to show you!" I smacked as pure a 7 iron as I can hit(I was guessing it was about 175 & maybe a half club to a club downhill) & it fell a good 30 yards short into the rock strewn waste area. We all laughed pretty hard.

[aclayman]

Patrick, I don't know how much public golf you play but the ideal you site does seem a bit eccentric not to mention rare. I think what your saying is that without all those unnatural things, a place looks more natural. Now that is as obvious as the balls on a tall dog.
But, if I do go to a course and I don't see any ball washers, it probably means they are on the carts and us walkers can rough it. Now that's insulting.
I do appreciate minimal obtstruction from cart signs and certainly think paths should be made out of grass. But thats my preference and no matter how much I like things my way I wouldn't consider pushing them onto the unsophisticated masses.

also,
Doesn't Cruden bay have an arrow on a hillside to point towards the green on a blind one shotter?

[BarnyF]

Patrick,

The whinning above has ruined my breakfast.  All the first time player has to do is chunk out an extra 50 or 60 bucks for a caddie and all their problems are solved.  I think its great that a "sophisticated mass" like aclayman can have the opportunity to play a round of golf without the dumbing down principles of most tracks.  I believe it is the responsibility of a member of a course with a caddie program to use the caddies at every opportunity.  In my case if I think it is adding up to too much money I just give less at church.  Caddies and Waitresses can bring more sunshine into a dreary day than most priests...so give often and give generously.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

What is your handicap ?

What is your reaction when the chart you look at says the pin is in the front, but due to a pro shop error, it's in the back, and you're off by 25 yards after hitting a perfect shot ?

The course I described and NGLA aren't for you.

If you estimate 145 to the green and are off by 25 yards, you need an eye doctor rather than a golf pro.  

It would seem that GPS systems mounted in carts would be to your liking.

What ever happened to playing by FEEL ?

aclayman,

How do you clean your clubs during a round of golf ?  I would think you carry a towel for that purpose, why not wet one end so you can clean your clubs thoroughly and your golf ball as well ?

Barny F,

I agree, the whining is excessive !

[BillV]

The Dunes?

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Mucci --

Gee, could you please be more insulting?

You don't know anything about me, or about what courses are for me or not for me.

I don't expect any invitations to NGLA. Pity. I'm sure I'd love it. I'd splurge on a caddie -- a commodity in very short supply on most of the courses I play. And I'd thereby have some information to go on, to check whether my feel is good or not.

My USGA handicap is 5.0.

No, I don't like GPS indicators. I don't like carts, period.

Yes, I may need an eye doctor.

I don't need your lectures.

[Ken Bakst]

Pat
You may not be thinking of a C&C golf course, but I'm pretty sure that Easthampton GC satisfies all of the criteria that you listed!

[john f]

Dan,

I've been trying to figure out why I like those extra's that aren't natural on a course (colored flags, 150 yrd barber poles, gps, course books) and you hit it right on the head!! The more information I have at my hands the more comfortable I feel. The more comfortable I feel, the more confidence I have. The more confidence I have the better I play. The better I play the more I love the game!!

Sure we run the risk of info overload, but that is everyone's personal opinion. I enjoy a quick 9 w/ no scorecard, a sunday bag and the course to myself at 6:00AM on a summer morning. I also enjoyed most CCFAD's where I'm treated well. I do not judge many things. Just sit back and thank the lord that I am blessed w/ my health, my familly & friends, a great job and a passion for this wonderfull game. Whatever that game may be at the time.

Patrick, why does Dan's handicap matter and why isn't NGLA for him?

PS. Sand Hills fits your course description.

[Dan Kelly]

John F. --

I was wondering about Mr. Mucci's request for my handicap, as I drove to my office over the past hour.

I think I've got it: He wants to propose a match between us at NGLA. Or maybe at Sand Hills. No caddies. No scorecards. No GPS. No course guides. No nothin'.

Mr. Mucci: I accept.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

You're wrong, I do know about you,
from your posts, assuming that your posts are an honest and accurate reflection of your thoughts.

You live in Minnesota, play mostly public courses.  You indicated that you would be most unhappy the first time you played a course like the one I described, hence similar courses like NGLA, PV, Shinnecock,
and GCGC would also not be to your liking the first time you played them.  You stated that you maybe SPOILED.  You like maps on scorecards so you can see where the blind buners are.  HOW AM I DOING SO FAR ?
Am I getting to know you ?

John F,

Asking Dan's handicap was a request for information, a reference point if you will.

At a course I'm familiar with in Florida, a woman wanted RED 250, 200, 150 and 100 markers in the middle of each fairway, the size of basketballs.  Since she could barely hit the ball 100 yards, one had to question the need for her request.

Dan indicated that he liked more information than his eyes can provide, I felt that at 145 yards, the problem was the need for an eye doctor not maps, codes, gps, etc.,etc..

From 145 yards, it's hard for me to believe that a five (5) handicap could be off by
25 yards.  I can see a 19, 26 or 34 handicap player having the difficulty Dan alluded to, but not a low handicap player.  Nor can I imagine that caliber of player not being able to ascertain his relative distance to the green and pin through feel, unless of course he plays most of his golf in dense fogs.

NGLA wouldn't be for Dan because it lacks his prerequisite information sources,
Tee signs indicating yardage, 200, 150, and 100 yard markers, pin sheets, coded scorecards and the like just aren't there.  
It's basically a simple course with red or green tee markers, and a pin located somewhere on each green.  It is very uncluttered, very natural, lacking all the information devices he craves.

GCGC, PV, Shinnecock, and many other courses are similar, hence I deduced that Dan would not enjoy playing courses like that the first time.  Since he wouldn't enjoy himself, why bother playing them, they're not for him.

I did post a smiley face   on my post to Dan, which he must have missed.  I can understand this given his inability at 145 yards to come within 25 yards of his target.

[BarnyF]

I am so proud of Patrick I might change my name to PatF....you go girl!!!

[JSS]

Can you ladies stop the gabbing..  Whats the frigin answer to the question?

[humble contributor]

This country is in big trouble if we continue wasting our time on this excrement. Now let's get back to the meat of the discussion and learn something.

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Mucci --

You seem to be willfully blind to what I'm saying.

I'm saying, very simply, that I appreciate information when I'm playing a course I'll never get to play often enough to develop the requisite local knowledge.

If there were caddies at most such courses, I would employ one of them to give me that information. There are not caddies at most such (public) courses.

Obviously, because I'm not an idiot, I would love Pine Valley, Shinnecock, NGLA, GCGC and the like -- at any of which I would engage a caddie and listen carefully.

Sand Hills is unquestionably my favorite course of any I've ever played, and I believe it almost perfectly qualifies for your description.

Yes, I said that maybe I was spoiled. I was joking, sir. Guess I should have put one of those asinine smily faces on that sentence.

Yes, if I've paid something a hundred bucks or more (real money, to me) to play a course -- a course which is, by definition, too expensive for me to make a habit of playing -- I appreciate knowing where the blind bunkers are, and how big the greens are. What fun is it to execute exactly the shot you intended to execute -- and then have it turn out all wrong because you had no clue in the world that there was a bunker there? Call me spoiled. (Where's that stupid smily face?)

The second time I play the course, of course, I'd have no excuse. But there is, for a person like me, often no second time.

Tell me something, sir, if you'd care to: When was the last time you played entirely by feel? How often do you do so? (Note: The second time you play a course, you're not playing entirely by feel, in my view. You're playing by feel and local experience.)

[Keith Williams]

For the love of God, could we get back to the topic....Patrick I am very interested in finding out what course you are speaking of.  Unfortunately I feel like I have to tune into an episode of the Jerry Springer show just to find out about a stinking golf course.

[Dan Kelly]

Dear Humble Contributor --

It's precisely because the country IS in such sad shape that I feel the NEED to waste time on this excrement.

[Dan Kelly]

Can't you just hear that crowd now? "Pat-RICK, Pat-RICK, Pat-RICK, Pat-RICK..."

[RandyC]

And some people here wonder why every once in a while new people come in here and say something to the effect of "I don't feel comfortable posting on this board." Or wonder why people who once posted have stopped...

It's because of threads like this. Not very welcoming. Not very nice.

Nobody's word is gospel, it's a discussion.

Bandon Dunes? Back to lurking...

[Dan Kelly]

Thank you, RandyC.

As a relative newcomer here, I thought that Mr. Mucci's initial question (should other courses follow the lead of his mystery course?) was intended to promote discussion. I didn't realize that there was one correct answer, and that anyone daring to differ with that one correct answer was inviting rebuke and insult.

I apologize for my part in prolonging this. I have a bad habit: When I'm punched, I punch back. No more -- at least here.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

I believe I indicated early in this thread that you had to take a caddy at this course, and that they have a very good caddy program, perhaps you missed that part.

Do you think architects design golf courses with blind bunkers, intentionally, with a purpose, or by accident ?

I asked you a simple question in response to your initial post, you provided your manifesto which I disagreed with.  If you're going to voice your opinion, be prepared to have it questioned without taking it personally.  I found it comical that a five handicap, 145 yards from a green couldn't estimate, within 25 yards, where the pin was, when the pin was visible.  I also find all the indicator or information devices you crave intrusive to a golf course.

If I post something incorrect, improper or questionable, knowledgeable people on this site will take me to task for it.  I've had battles with Tommy Naccarato, who I consider a friend, Tom Paul, who I consider a friend, and others.  I don't take it personally, nor should Dan.  Is there no accountability for posts, let alone inane posts ?

If one posts an opinion, just be prepared to debate your opinion and post.  No big deal.

To answer your question, the last time I played by feel was 2 1/2 weeks ago at NGLA.

To Everyone Else,

I already answered the quiz !

Review my post to Herb Flood.

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