[ForkaB]

Darren

I'd be the opposite, 7-3 in favor of Pebble Beach, because it is a much better overall test of golf, IMHO.  I'd play Pebble to see how good I was (or wasn't ) and intersperse a few rounds at Pacific for a little lighter entertainment.

[THuckaby2]

OK, goofing off here while I'm supposed to be preparing for a seminar.. and with little time... I shall try to rebut Darren above and at least earn a few beers.

And my only way to do so is to say RIGHT ON, RICH.

I have little further to add... except... I too have played Pebble many times - not 20, but more than 10.

I've NEVER gotten over the history.

I played it once with my Dad, first group off, twosome only, in 2.75 hours.

I'll take THAT round over anything I could ever possibly do at PD.

Sure, it can take six hours... it's horribly overpriced... there are so many BAD things about the experience there...

But I'm still with Rich.  7 at Pebble and 3 at Pacific.

Nope - I'm not OVER the history - neither that provided by pros nor that I did myself.

And I hope I never will be.

Do I get a beer?

TH

[Peter Galea]

Tom, I'll buy! How bout two at "Traps"?

[T_MacWood]

Is there a more dramatic stretch than 6 though 10 at Pebble Beach, maybe 4 through 10 now? Add 3, 10, 13, 14, 16 and 18 and you have a very solid group of holes to go with an extraordinary number all-world holes.

I'm not sure there is a golf course that can compare as far as scale in concerned -- the most dramatic aspect of PB is not the rocky coast line but the outrageous elevation changes and movement of the ground along the coast. The coastal holes at PD look to be nearly flat.

[aclayman]

I find it hard to believe there are still 6 hr rounds at PB.
Darren did you play it on this recent trip?

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom MacWood:

FYI, I came away from Pacific Dunes with far more affection for the inland holes than those along the water, though the short Par 3 #11 also made a big impression.

Your point about the movement of the land on the seaside holes at Pebble is well taken.

I got over the "wow" factor at Pebble Beach after playing it for the first time.  It just seemed to have too many holes that disqualify it from the lofty rank it enjoys, including some that you apparently like (#13, #14, #16 and #18).

After playing PB five or six times, only holes #4, #7, #8, #9 and #10 really impressed me.  The rest just seemed to be dragged along by the coattails of that one amazing stretch.

Tom Huckaby:

I never had the pleasure of playing Pebble Beach in LESS than 3 hours.

By contrast I've never played Royal County Down in MORE than 3 hours.

Maybe that's why I have such a bad attitude and will only buy you one pint!

[THuckaby2]

Tim - I'll take the one pint, it's more than I thought I'd get.

This might be an interesting case of perspective...

My last round at RC Down took 5.25 hours.  

I love the course regardless....

My rounds at Pebble have indeed ranged from 2.75 to 6.25 hours...

I love the course no matter what.

I'm bummed your Pebble experiences haven't been good ones...

Come on out now - no one's playing the course these days!

TH

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:

I thought about a trip to Carmel and the notion that this might be the perfect time.

But, during my years in California I got spoiled with a big expense account and, therefore, only paid to play the course one time.

At $350 a pop, I'd still rather save on a few rounds at Pebble and buy another ticket to Ireland.

[THuckaby2]

You and me both, brother.  I've been VERY fortunate also never to pay full price at Pebble.  Believe me, I don't plan on changing this status.

It is however quite tempting these days...

TH

[kilfara]

Adam,

No, I did not play PB on my most recent trip. I don't think I'll play PB again until either a) I win the next $252 million Powerball lottery, or b) my greens fee is on the house. It might be a while, huh?

You guys are right: 4-10 is a great stretch of golf. But c'mon...it's such, such...a cliche to like that stretch of holes. Sheesh. Am I the only one allowed to think outside of the box here?  

A few other random thoughts for you:

--I can't help thinking of Tom Doak's quote in the Confidential Guide about Half Moon Bay: a one-hole golf course, with the other 17 holes being "mostly Hamburger Helper". Change the ratio to 5/13 6/12 instead of 1/17, and isn't that what PB gives you? (Well, nearly....)

--By the way, aren't some of you guys who are trumpeting Pebble's virtues among the first to slay Augusta National whenever it comes up as a topic of discussion? Aren't they rather similar in the effect of tradition upon the architecture?

--I think I wouldn't be coming across as so vehemently anti-Pebble if it wasn't for that silly #1 ranking in the most recent Golf Digest poll. I mean, COME ON, YOU KNUCKLEHEADS!  

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

Darren:

WE'RE NO. 1!  WE'RE NO. 1!  WE'RE NO. 1!

Lovingly,

TH

[ForkaB]

Darren

As a 3-year resident of and "member" at Half Moon Bay I can say with much conviction that Tom Doak fell for his "dumb blonde" fallacy when he priased the 18th.  ther are many, many better holes on that course, one of which , the 16th, is truly world class.

And, as we say at Royal Dornoch, "WE:"RE NUMBER !%!  

[ForkaB]

Darren

As a 3-year resident of and "member" at Half Moon Bay I can say with much conviction that Tom Doak fell for his "dumb blonde" fallacy when he priased the 18th.  ther are many, many better holes on that course, one of which , the 16th, is truly world class.

And, as we say at Royal Dornoch, "WE:"RE NUMBER !%!  

[ForkaB]

There was a helluva tyop in that last line, but I think I'll let it stand

[THuckaby2]

Fantastic, Rich!

As we say at Santa Teresa,

WE'RE NO. 10,345!

TH

ps - agreed re 16 at HMB "Old".  Have you seen the changes to 18 green completed recently?

[Tim_Weiman]

Darren:

In the event I win the $252 million lotto I will play Pebble Beach one more time....with Tom Huckaby, but he will have to buy the drinks after.

Tom Huckaby:

Just to confirm that I am "anti Pebble" but haven't completely lost my mind, I did follow up on Ran's suggestion and do still one more match play: PD vs that course down the street from Pebble.

Unlike Royal County Down, it wasn't close.

[Bill_McBride]

Rich, are you talking about the original course's 16th and 18th holes, or Hill's new course?  I loved both those holes when I lived in the Bay Area after the original course opened.  Haven't played the new course.  The 16th was a really good hole, woe to those who don't hit a decent tee ball, but I liked the 18th even better. That barranca is a lot closer on the right side than it looks, and love that upper right pin. The 17th was about the worst throw away par 3 in between ever.

[Hhoffmannredwood@cs.com]

Rich,

Does Josie know that you spend hours on this futile discussion? Pacific D is very good but there are great hikes from green to tee which disturb the flow. Let's wait 20 or 30 years befopre making up our minds.

Regards,

Herschel

E-mail address as above

[THuckaby2]

Tim, it's a deal, and it goes both ways.  If and when I strike it rich, the round is on me and I wanna be there to witness with mine own eyes as you "ho hum" your way through 18.  You can come too, Darren.  Rich and Pat and Pete, whoever's in town must be the 4th.  Not that I think I'll need any support to open the eyes of these heathens, but it would be fun to have an even match.

As for PD v. "that course down the street from Pebble"... you're gonna have to clarify which one.  If it's the one I recently played, oh yes, it won't be close - but not in PD's favor.  I'm struggling to think which course PD would rout... I have it relatively close even with Poppy Hills....

More fuel for the fire!

And remember, I LOVED PD and I was battling its merits v. Dornoch with Rich before...

TH

[ForkaB]

Bill

I was talking about HMB-Old (as it is now called).  The new "Links" course is much better, BTW.  Also, the upper right part of the 18th green is now history--a victime of Mother nature.

Herschel

Just what I need.  A lurker who knows the wife and the in-laws!  You are right, of course about the 20-30 year thing, but we are very much into instant gratification in this country and on this website.

Kind of fun, however, to watch Pacific Dunes fall from potential world "top-ten" status to struggling in a toe-to-toe "battle" with Poppy Hills, just over a matter of days.........

[Dan Kelly]

Rich --

We ALL know your wife and in-laws. The rest of us have merely been polite enough not to mention them.

[THuckaby2]

Don't put words in my mouth, Rich - you bad boy.  All I said is it doesn't ROUT Poppy Hills.  It does win in any case, and we're talking only in the Ran match play context.

I also never called it world top ten.

Top 50 I'd argue for...

TH

[Matt_Ward]

This thread has made for much interesting comments and rebuttals.

I give the edge to PB over PD. The margin is close as it would be with courses that rate 9-10. When the wind is up and running past 15 mph PB becomes an absolute terror given the small green targets. I was present at PB during the '92 Open and it's memory of wild winds that swept through the site still lingers in my memory. Try recovery shots from around PB's greens and you better have a full arsenal of skills.

If the wind velocity is down the matter becomes more clouded. To Doak's credit PD is never boring. PB has a few soft holes, but they are more than made up with holes of dynamic intensity in shotmaking. As a GD rater I question whether PB is in fact #1 among all courses in America (I agree the one down the street is truly special, but I would opt for the gem on Long Island that starts with the letter "S", but I don't question it's ability to identify the truly great player from those aspiring to be.

PD is an absolute joy to play and given it's completely different personality to Bandon Dunes it's exciting and clearly has style in overdrive. Every hole has some sort of meaning and quality.

PD is a marvelous course and I would rate it among the top 25 courses I've played in the USA. But PB is still a vintage thoroughbred, a course that still never ceases to capture your imagination. Yes, it gets plenty of publicity and this may harden the veins of many who believe it is overhyped, but PB in my mind wins in no less the margin than Affirmed nipped Alydar in the Triple Crown races from a number of years ago.

One last question -- Tim, did you assess PD's #18 from the extreme back tees (661 yards) or from the standard ones (590 yards)? I like both holes but give PB the edge because so many different numbers are in play.

Regards,

[ForkaB]

Tom H

Much as I try to put words in your mouth I always seem to find your foot to be in the way .  Just kidding, of course.......

You are, of course, not the person who inmplied that PD was or could be "top ten" status, but I do not think he would be amused at your using PD and Poppy Hills in the same sentence, even though it does have some merit, IMO...........

[THuckaby2]

Hey Rich, I've played Dornoch and San Jose Muni and enjoyed them both.

Wow, those are in the same sentence.  Sorry!

Back to reinsert my foot.

TH

ps - just kidding, of course!

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