[Tim_Weiman]

With all the match play comparisons being posted, it occurred to me that someone ought to be more bold and have a go at Pacific Dunes vs Pebble Beach.  Hoping this will be an interesting discussion, I’ll jump right in:

#1 – Pacific Dunes wins goes 1 up on the basis of a far more interesting green complex.

#2 – Overall strategy puts Pacific Dunes 2 up.

#3 – I’ve always liked both shots at PB, but once again the green complex at Pacific Dunes makes the difference.  Pacific Dunes 3 up.

#4 – Difficult to compare these very different holes.  Halved.  PD 3 up.

#5 – I’ll confess I haven’t seen the new hole at Pebble, but still give it to PD, now 4 up.

#6 – Never been a real fan of the sixth at Pebble.  PD a little gem and goes 5 up.

#7 – Excellent long par 4 at PD, but Pebble wins with a classic short par 3.  PD 4 up.

#8 – Great green complex at Pacific Dunes, but Pebble wins again with another classic.
PD now 3 up.

#9 – Pebble wins again with one the great long seaside par 4s. PD 2 up.

#10 – Perhaps the only disappointing hole at Pacific Dunes.  PD 1 up.

#11 – Beginning of dull stretch for Pebble. PD goes back to 2 up with great short hole.

#12 – You might look at PD’s 12th as merely chewing up relatively dull land, but I’d still prefer playing this hole over the 12th at Pebble.  PD 3 up.

#13 – Not close.  PD goes 4 up

#14 – My choice here might be controversial. I see Pacific Dunes #14 as a classic, while
the first two shots at Pebble don’t amount to much.  Pebble's third shot kind of cool but not enough to win the hole.  PD 5 up.

#15 – I’ve never seen any virtue in the 15th at Pebble.  PD 6 up.

#16 – I like the tee shot at Pacific Dunes and the approach at Pebble.  Halve.  PD 6 up.

#17 – With some reservation I’ll give it to the site of Nicklaus and Watson glory. PD 5
up.

#18 – Maybe the toughest choice.  The tee shot at Pebble is a classic; the 2nd and 3rd shots at Pacific Dunes strike me as far more interesting.  There is also a lot more
happening on Pacific Dunes green.  PD finishes 6 up.

I’ll confess to always believing Pebble Beach has a surprising number of holes that really aren’t anything special for a course rated so high.  Then, too, Pacific Dunes is more fresh in my mind after the GCA get together last week.  Still, I’m real interested to hear other views.  Am I way off the mark?

[ed_getka]

Tim,
I completely agree with your assessment of PD #6 being a gem. #7 at PB is one of the most overrated holes I hear about all the time. Without wind or a fear of sand what does that hole bring to the table? #7 at PD is one of my favorite holes with its challenging green complex. What is disappointing about #10 at PD, I find it to be a solid par 3 from the lower tee. #14 at PD on the other hand is a yawner wedge, at least in the summer, downwind. I like both courses although I've only played PB once due to its price (I'll take Pasatiempo over PB any day for the green fee).

[Tim_Weiman]

Ed,

There is always a danger of getting carried away with the latest course you seen and I didn't want to do that.

As for #7 at Pebble Beach, I don't think it's fair to discuss it "without wind".  I've played the course six times and never experienced such conditions.  Even without the wind, I think most people would find the hole a joy to play. While I share your enthusiasm for #7 at Pacific Dunes, my assessment deprives Pebble of a win up to that point and I just felt I might be piling on.  Could it be a halve?  Yes, it could.

As for #10 at Pacific Dunes, unfortunately I only played the top tees.  Maybe if I saw the lower tees I'd have a more favorable impression.  What does stand out about all the par 3s at Pacific Dunes is their variety. I'm hard pressed to think of a course with as much variety on the par 3s. #10 was was just my least favorite.  Sure the view out towards the ocean could be awesome, but the green complex offered far less than the others.  Let me know if you think I missed something.

By contrast, I loved #14.  There were all kinds of things happening around the green.  Moreover, I can't imagine that club selection and hitting the green is so easy when the wind starts blowing.  In short, I suspect the hole looks easy, but will often require a creative little pitch to make par.

[ForkaB]

I had it a halved match, with PD winning the 18th.  If they went to the 19th?  As much as I like PD#1 I'd give the match to Pebble.

[aclayman]

Since I still haven't travelled north of Stump beach I can't comment on PD but I do have to speak up about the first and eleventh at PB.

I love the first green at Pebble, it's so deceptive and completly sets the tone for the day, especially when trying to figure out the speed.
The 11th is also an underated gem with ample reward for the proper tee shot and probably one of the steepest greens save for the right side of eight.

Just my HO

[kilfara]

On the merits of the golf course alone, I'd rather play Pacific Dunes every day of the week and twice on Sundays.   PD is prettier, more interesting, more elegant and more fun. All in my humble opinion, of course.

And could we please stop it with the silly match-play comparisons?   In all seriousness, how can you compare a long par 5 to a short par 3 (like with the respective no. 14s)? If you really, really want to do this at all, you should be forced to pair each hole off by distance and do it that way, so that the shortest par 3s are matched up against each other, the longest par 5s, and every hole in between.

Cheers,
Darren

[ForkaB]

Adam

I'm with you re: 1 and 11 at PB--both highly underrated golf holes.

Darren

This whole site is "silly"--we're talking about a GAME, aren't we?

[Peter Galea]

Maybe Golf Digest should put out an errata sheet and correct their choice of #1 golf course. According to this thread it appears to be in Oregon, not in California.

[Tim_Weiman]

aclayman:

I don't have any problem with #1 or #11 at Pebble.  Overall, I simply enjoy those holes at PD more.

Darren:

I've always had the same problem as you do on the "match play" thing and can agree it does seem a bit silly comparing holes that INTEND to be different (e.g., a par 5 vs a par 3).  But, like Rich Goodale suggests, for better or worse, that is what we do here.

I've thought about re-arranging holes for the such a competition, but that is not so easy in every case. No two golf courses match up exactly in terms of the number of Par 3s, 4s or 5s.  So, any approach is imperfect and when I do go through the "match play" exercise I just go at it as done above.

Pete Gelea:

Much as I enjoy Carmel, I don't share the Golf Digest view of Pebble Beach as number one.  But, that doesn't mean the best golf course is in Oregon.  There is another California course right down the street from PB that prevents that from being the case.

[NAF]

Tim, I can't agree with you on this one remotely...I don't see how you can give the 5th hole to PD without seeing the new one at Pebble Beach.  It is the best Nicklaus hole I have played yet and is a much more *theatrical* setting than the solid 5th at PD.

Furthermore, how can you say the short 6th at PD which is a very good short par 4 is better than the quirky 6th at Pebble.  Who today would build a hole like the 6th at Pebble and what other short par 5 2nd shot is scarier for the mid handicapper than trying to get up that hill.

I had the match All Square...Taken as a series of par 3s, par 4s and par 5s, I agree Pac Dunes has the better holes as there are no weak ones there unlike at Pebble..But the stretch #5-10 are among the most majestic in golf and lends such an air of theater to the place that it makes up for the weaker holes..As Rich Goodale said, #1 and #11 are underestimated with strategy as the green (#1) and tee shot (#11) require good placement.

Darren, Pebble Beach less elegant that PD?  Stand on the tee at #7 or on the green at #8 and rethink that statement..I don't think any sight in golf is more lovelier than that..

Pebble Beach is the grande dame of golf, Bottichelli's Venus..It doesn't make it the Mona Lisa (i.e. the best) but it isnt exactly chopped liver..

[Peter Galea]

Tim, agreed on "down the street". However; I thought (maybe incorrectly) that one of the factors which vaulted that 'pitch and putt' alongside Carmel Bay was public access. My original comment was tongue in cheek.
I aplogize to everyone for bringing up the rankings thing again, and on that note I will cease and desist.

[THuckaby2]

Wow... I've got to be the world's biggest Pacific Dunes fan - I went crazy about it on here after I got back from my August trip.

BUT...

I have Pebble winning 2up.  Reality is reality.  I disagree all over the place with you, Tim.

And Darren, you say:

"On the merits of the golf course alone, I'd rather play Pacific Dunes every day of the week and twice on Sundays."

Are you serious here?  Really?

Hmmmm... again, like I say, I love Pacific Dunes... but ok, let's just say if the golf gods want to grant all these rounds, let me have the ones at Pebble while you're playing PD.

To each his own - I love this stuff.

TH

[John Bernhardt]

I am not sure these courses are comparable. The only things they have in common is being on the Pacific Ocean. Pebble is pebble all 60,000 rounds of it a with some of the great golf holes and experiances available to those of us who love the game. ie standing on 8 fairway preparing for the best 2nd shot in golf. or standing on the fairway on 6 preparing to chip up and hoping for a birdie only to realize that you are on top of the world. Pacific dunes will in time give us some of the same feeling and has 18 great golf holes, but is relatively unknown still and does not have anywhere near the history that pebble does ie open's crosby's and us am's and cal am's. number 13 at pacific dunes as well as 6 and 8 are just great holes to name a few.

[THuckaby2]

Agreed 100%, well said, John.

And I guess this must be what Darren is getting at - discounting all of this history, all the breathtaking views, etc. - just judging the golf courses on "merit alone."

Correct, Darren?

That I'd understand and I can live with that, even though I might still disagree... it's closer anyway.

The thing is, you CAN'T discount all of what John says.

Yup, give PD 75 years and a few US Opens, and this might be a fairer comparison.  As for now, it's apples and oranges.

TH

[Ran Morrissett]

No doubt Pebble has the 3 best holes and the 3 worst holes of the two courses.

Though this doesn't answer Tim's original question (I have Pebble ending 1 up), how many shots harder is Pebble than PacDunes given a comparable wind? 5 shots??

[Peter Galea]

My original post was just to weasel in this thread. I have not played Pacific Dunes, but am dying to. I've had some very reliable friends (off the net) tell me great things about it. However; I am a dyed in the wool Pebble fan. I have played it many times in all conditions. A 90 from thie tips in a howling wind was one of my greatest triumphs. 12 is my least favorite hole. But a weak hole on the course? You have not played it enough. There is no better place on the planet than standing in 9 fairway with the challenge in front of you, the sky and ocean aglow and the white sand of Carmel beach below. Period.

[THuckaby2]

That's a very interesting question, Ran... Oh hell, I can't imagine playing Pebble in the wind I got at Bandon.  I'd say your 5 shot estimate might be light.  PD was "doable" even in the 5-club wind I got... not easy, mind you, and some of the into the wind holes became unreachable, but it was wide enough and you gained enough on the downwind holes to make it doable... and the slower greens helped also...

Pebble I can't imagine playing in wind like they got in final round of '92 Open.  Given the hard fast greens... potential for disaster to the sides of so many holes... Like I say, 5 shots might not be enough disparity.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Pete:  agreed.  And playing PD - which you MUST - won't change this opinion.

TH

[John Bernhardt]

Ran, the last question of harder is easier for me to grasp. I have alway had trouble with the holes by hole comparison which you are justifiably famous for. I believe pebble is 4 or 5 shots harder in simliar conditions. Yet that brings up another reason this is a tough comparison. conditions will more often than not be different. PD will generally have 2 clubs more wind than pebble on a typical day and is designed acccordingly. great work by doak and jim but not a slight on neville and successors. they designed a great work for the conditions of the area too. Tom H, i have a few great pics of you so i need a mailing address for you. John

[Mark_Fine]

John,
You're not implying "history or tradition" plays a factor in your decision are you  
I will argue though that all golf courses are comparable but that is a separate topic.  

I've played Pebble many times and know it well but have only walked 11 holes of Pacific Dunes while the other 7 were still under construction.  However, both courses are in that rarified 9/10 air.  To argue one or the other comes down to personal preference alone.  
Mark

[THuckaby2]

I'll buy that, Mark.

But so many courses we discuss on this site are in that 9/10 rarefied air... if we leave it at personal preference, what's the purpose of this site?

I say this in jest.  I don't do smiley faces, don't know how.

TH

[kilfara]

Noel, re: calling PD "elegant" - that's the exact adjective I think of to describe PD. You yourself came up with the adjective I'd use to describe Pebble: "grand". Pebble's greens are smaller, but I still think of it more in terms of grandness than elegance. The two words are closely related, but hopefully you can see what I'm trying to get at. (Or maybe not!)  

By the way, I hope that in calling the 5th a "Nicklaus hole" you're using "Nicklaus" as a noun and not an adjective. I haven't played the new 5th yet, but from what I've heard it doesn't fit in with the rest of the course; on that basis, even if it's the best hole of his you've played, maybe it fails within the context of the golf course as a whole?

Huckster - yep, I'd rather play PD. Definitely. Pebble is a far more uneven experience: I've played it 20 or so times now, and I always found my mind drifting ahead to holes 6-10 during the first five holes, and to 17-18 during the bulk of the back nine. Some of the non-seaside holes are very good ones, but you wind up almost ignoring them as you mentally envision for the seaside holes. PD is a much more balanced experience, and as such I enjoy each hole much more as it comes. And yes, I think the holes ON THEIR MERIT at PD - history/tradition aside - are better than those at Pebble, judging them for greatness, adding those abstract qualities together and then dividing by 18.

Yes, you could say that it all comes down to personal preference. But I think the stronger logical arguments I've heard put PD slightly ahead of PB. I'm convinced that PB's reputation is much more founded upon tradition and history than its defenders would care to acknowledge. (Lest Rich butt in at this point, I would say that the same statement is assuredly NOT true of the Old Course!   )

Cheers,
Darren

[aclayman]

From all I've gathered from posts on PD I haven't heard any references to the types of "things" that I find so cool about PB.
And that is the fear factor that makes Pebble so interesting and it is the apparent simplicity combined with that fear, on almost every shot which makes it the experience it is.
Even the so called "weak" holes still have that fear factorability, If one is errant on any swing.
From what I gathered about PD, one needs to have played it once to learn the areas worthy of respect(fear), where at PB it's all right there, not only in front of you but in the back of your mind, too.

Now I haven't read every post about PD so if my premise is off I will value enlightenment.

Pete- As for the 12th. I don't see the bad rap. Maybe because it is only two dimensional? In other words you have only two options. A perfect shot at the pin or a perfect shot towards the front right apron???
and there is nothing more exciting to anticipate or to see, when a ball is leaking to the right and when it kicks off the bunkers ridge either in the sand or towards the pin.

[THuckaby2]

Darren:

Well stated indeed.

The very key difference here is that I just plain can't discount tradition and history - and I'd also add SETTING and BEAUTY to this.  So in the right moment, sitting there at the bar at Bandon, or in the week right after I got back from there, I might even grant you that PD is a stronger "design" or whatever...

But in the cold light of day, I'd still rather play Pebble than PD.  And I'd say my logic is as strong as yours... it just comes down to experience v. architecture, once again.

There are just so few people on this earth who truly can or should look PURELY and SOLELY at the architecture, to me it is a meaningless sample.  Let the architects battle over who did a better job, and critics and writers side one way or the other.

On this internet site, oh yes, the majority are like this, on your side, as it were.  That's why I love the site and learn so much.

But the real world is with me.

Not that I'm exactly proud of this, but who truly is the audience?

In any case, I'm not gonna complain playing either course!

TH

[NAF]

Darren,

Pebble is grand in the sense of the scope and scale of the land it fits...

Pebble is elegant in that it is ornate, graceful and beautiful..

But why argue on words..A lot of course can have that..My feel after 4 times around PD was that it was beautiful and serene...but perhaps as Tom H. says Pebble's tradition, location and aura in my mind lent a beauty that when you gaze upon displays the word elegance..

I think the 5th fits in perfectly at Pebble between #4 and #6..Nicklaus aside, the hole makes the course stronger..Call for a tight fade to a green with good contour..Contrasted with the stillness and beauty of Stillwater Cove..The 5th is my second favorite par 3 on the course..It is only a wee 8 or 9 iron unless from the open tees but it in character with the course...maybe others here can comment on what they think..

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