[THuckaby2]

Very well said, Pat.  I sure as heck face all the obstacles/options you list on 18 Pebble... thus when I read Tim call the 2nd and 3rd shots "ho hum" (way up above) I almost spit all over the screen...

The day those shots become ho hum is the day I go on tour.

Yes, for the best of the best, it might be ho hum.  But what tiny percentage of the world's players does that represent?

TH

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:

You are doing pretty good at letting others state your case.

Maybe they can help keep your screen clean!

I take Pat Mucci's point about the general influence of wind on the #18th at Pebble.  For me, the wind always had the most influence on the second shot. I'd always aim at the left edge of the fairway and hope the wind would push the ball to the middle of the fairway.  Usually I played the shot with a 4-5 iron hoping to set up a nine iron third shot to the green.

Part of the reason I never thought that much of the hole is that I never saw another way to play it, "methodically" to use Pat Mucci's words.

Why is your opinion of the 2nd and 3rd shots is so different than mine?

[BarnyF]

Tim,

Ebay currently has 5 Pebble Beach sweaters for sale at reasonable prices...Please let me know your size and I will be happy to have one sent to you.

Oh yes, I will also need a mailing address to give the seller.

[THuckaby2]

Tim - hey, any time anyone states "my" case better than I can, I'm happy to jump on it.

But I must admit I'm not concentrating here completely.  Let's just say I'm trying to "multitask" and I haven't been actively following along.

In any case, I honestly don't get what you're asking me...

You called the 2nd and 3rd shots "ho hum".  Any shots with all of those obstacles (as listed by Pat) can never be ho hum for me... history/tradition be damned!  And calling it a "fairly dull management exercise"... jeez... that's a level I just can't get to.  

That's how my opinion of the two shots is different from yours.  Am I missing something?

I am honestly quite confused.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim and Tom,

Let's not look at the hole in isolation.

Let's look at it under two scenarios'

#1  You're playing a tournament, and need to
   birdie the hole to A win, B tie.

#2  You're playing match play, the finals,
   against a fellow who has the honor.
   A. You're all even. B you're one up.
   C you're one down.
   He drives a long beauty down the middle
   How do you play your tee shot ?
   
   He hits a three wood second shot, in the
   left fairway 80 yards short of the green.
   How do you play your second shot ?
   
   He knocks his third 25 feet above a pin
   cut real close to the front bunker, or
   next to the sea wall.  How do you play
   your third shot ?

Obviously, you benefit from knowing how your
opponent played all three shots before you even teed off, but hopefully, you get my point, circumstances and architecture make this a great finishing hole, unless you're an armchair player.
 

[THuckaby2]

Tim's gonna get on me again for letting you speak for me, but I can't phrase it any better than you did, Pat.  There are options and potential outcomes galore there, obviously.  I'm still not seeing how this could ever be ho hum.

Nothing further to add...

TH

[kilfara]

On one level, I'll buy Patrick's eloquent arguments. But on another...how many possible scenarios can you draw up regarding the 18th hole at PD? For the average high-handicapper, you can even add a fourth shot and set of outcomes into the equation. And there are many plain or indifferent holes which can produce interesting matchplay finishes, aren't there?

By the way, you have to hit a pretty miserable third shot at Pebble Beach to go out-of-bounds. I'd strike that from the list of possibilities if a known shanker of the golf ball isn't involved.  

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

Darren:

One does not have to hit that bad a shot to go ob on the 3rd.  I speak from painful experience.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Darren,

One of the problems in making a judgement based on the play of a hole is: who is playing the hole.  In your example at PD you reference an average high handicapper, others at PB used tour pros as an example.

I think when making comparisons, the criteria should include golfers of the same ability.  I also think you have to create a seperate category for tour players when analyzing a hole relative to the play of that hole.

I would think that the average high handicapper would find the 18th at PB all they could handle.

But, that's just my opinion.

[THuckaby2]

I've seen that in person too, Pat.  My Dad is not exactly skilled... he enjoyed all of his 9 shots on 18.

TH

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

I'm guessing you won't like my answer.

Quite simply, in both scenarios, I would play the hole as a three shot hole and hope my pitch and putt were successful.  My limited experience at Pebble (only six rounds)convinced me that my odds were best by keeping things simple, by maintaining the same strategy.

Now, that is me, playing against players of comparable ability.

I'll grant you that today's professional level player who can easily reach the green in two shots will probably make a different calculation.

I seem to recall someone mentioned that #18 at Pebble may have become a more interesting hole with improvements in technology (in the hands of pros).  I'm inclined to agree.

BarnyF:

How about a bargain basement weekend trip with airfare, lodging at the Fireplace Inn, breakfast at Katie's Place, two rounds of golf and a limo ride to Big Sur with the supermodel of my choice?  

[THuckaby2]

"someone mentioned that #18 at Pebble may have become a more interesting hole with improvements in technology (in the hands of pros)."

I'm so forgotten.

That was me.

They all can now reach it in two with irons if they are bold enough.

TH

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom huckaby:

The point you made was so impressive that I couldn't possibly associate it with you.

Oh, wait.

I meant to say....

Well, I already said it....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

So you're giving up on A. winning, B. Tieing
in the medal play competition. Why ?

And, being one down, even and one up, you're almost willing to concede losses on all three matches ? Why ?

[Chris_Hervochon]

Pat,
I could not agree with you any more that great golf holes make history.  Great point.  However, I think it would be a bogus statement to say that history makes great golf holes.  Just my opinion.

And another thing...All the design features you mentioned sure do atone for the fact that 18 @ PB is a fine par-5, one of the better ones probably.  But, just something to chew on, would you say the same thing of that hole was the 18th of your local muni and instead of the Pacific you had a manmade lake that was polluted by a landfill?  And be honest.  What I am saying is that design makes a hole great and not history or aesthetics.

Do you guys really think PB has the greatest closing stretch in golf?  Are you referring to the last 2 holes, because I am not so sure I would put 15 and 16 up there as really great golf holes.  I would tend to think maybe, MAYBE, TPC Sawgrass would be up there, because I think the last 3 are strong considering what they usually mean (PLAYERS CHAMPIONSHIP).  What about Pine Valley?  If I said it once, I will say it a million times; not a weak hole on the whole entire course.  If you wanted to talk about best closing stretches, you could go all the way back to the 11th hole on that course I believe.  I have never played there but I think it is a GREAT match play golf course.  

Just a little fat to chew.
Cheers,
Chris Hervochon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

Under your example, the architectual merits of the hole would change due to a change in its surroundings.

One can't ignore a seaside location and the added element the ocean brings with it, WIND.

Wind is a vital element that can't be manufactured.  I would say that strong, and/or prevailing winds are elements included in the basic design principles of a good or great hole.  

The wind pushes the golfers ball out of bounds, limits distance, affects ball flight and creates doubt.

It is one of Golfs greatest assets.
 
The Ocean is a constant, non-silent hazard,
from the tee to the green at Pebble Beach.
Challenging the golfer to bite off as much as they dare.  Challenging them to come as close as they can in order to get the prefered angle of attack for their next shot, and always reminding the golfer of the danger.

Chris, # 18 would be a good to very good hole with your surroundings, it is a great hole where it sits today.  Its location was no accident.  As they say in the Real Estate world, Location, Location, Location.

Despite the desire to isolate a golf hole and view and analyze it in a vacuum, we can't ignore its surroundings, they exist, and have to be factored in.

Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, weren't forced into those locations, they didn't get there by accident.  There was a desire to be near the sea for valid reasons.

When you blend golf with land and sea, you create something special.

But, that's just my opinion.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

During the years I played Pebble Beach, my game was around a 9 handicap.  I could hit a long ball, but my accuracy with fairway woods or long irons wasn't great - a condition that I suspect is fairly common.

Far from giving up, I simply felt that my best chance of making birdie or par (and winning the hole)was playing the hole conservatively.  Moreover, I watched many other players get caught up in the "wow" factor and do something stupid, so par would often be a winner and birdie likely to be.  I had no visions of making or needing to make an eagle.

For today's professional level player, I'm sure the calculation is often different.  That is why I freely ackowledge the holes is better for the pro (circa 2001) than either the pro or amateur circa 1990.

[THuckaby2]

Well Tim, you know, blind squirrel, acorn... musta had my feet tied to the floor that time.

TH

[Chris_Hervochon]

Pat-
You make some very good points.  18 at Pebble is a great hole, and would be a great hole no matter what its setting was.  But my analogy was that would it make any difference if it was on the Pacific or a lake?  I would tend to think not.  I do not think, in my opinion, that setting makes a golf hole great.  Rather, I think it just adds to its greatness.  Follow me?  Of course the wind also has to be factored in.  Good point.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

I don't think you can ignore the surrounding land, especially the land immediately surrounding and in play on a hole.

What do you think about # 18 at NGLA ?

The bluff, the threat it creates, the rise in the fairway to meet yet stronger winds, the bunkering waiting to grab the conservative player.

The fact is, the 18th at NGLA and PB were deliberately built into those settings to obtain the best possible hole for that location.

Tim,

You must be a good chipper/pitcher.  I don't look at chip ins as birdie opportunities.

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