What are Lehigh CC's weaknesses?

[BillV]

Patrick

(Love to discuss things with you)

I wouldn't worry about the flowers, they take care of themselves, bees and all that.  I really don't see them as a big deal.

Tom Weiskopf never built and never will build a course the calibre of Lehigh and is generally an idiot, best ignored.

When the fairway width is restored, there won't be enough water for all the grass and flowers!  It will be firm!

(Actually, I looked today, but did not photograph, and virtually all the bunkers were entirely within the fairway widths in the 1940 aerial.  The half and half mow pattern (Which I found quite deceptive at LuLu yesterday, BTW) is a great visually confusing device for the modern player.  Another thing to rag on ANGC for (XXXXXXX  Mowing patterns).

And still waiting for JohnV to weigh in on hte slope and rating question.

[Mark_Fine]

I don't worry too much about the slope and ratings of a golf course.  They are a guide and give a general feel of the difficulty you can expect, but that is about it!  

I took the sloping training course a few years back and am now a "certified course rater" to do slope evaluations.  I took the training to learn about slope and course ratings than to actually go do it!  I found the course very interesting but also very subjective.  Much of the rating is a function of the makeup of the group that analyzes the golf course.  During the training, we broke up into teams and did actual slope ratings of a series of golf holes.  Every group came up with different numbers and some quite varied.  

By my estimates (for what they are worth) I put Lehigh's back tees at 132 -134 slope and a course rating of 72.5 - 73.0 give or take.  
Mark

[TEPaul]

Mark:

What is the actual slope and rating of Lehigh from the back (I guess I have a card around here anyway and could look it up)? The slope might be accurate at around 132 (although that seems high too simply because the danger areas to a handicap player are somewhat limited) but there is absolutely no way at all that the course rating could be 72.5-73.00 with a par of 70. That would be very unfair to your entire traveling membership. Lehigh is a wonderful course and great to play but it is nowhere near that hard for a bona fide scratch golfer.

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

Saw your comments and had to pipe in with a response. I believe Lehigh to be about 73.0 from the back tees. I can name a number of courses in the immediate NY / NJ area that have this same number and our really a bit less in overall demands.

I play to about a two handicap and can drive the ball a decent distance off the tee and I found Lehigh to be a demanding and feisty layout. The greens demand keen positioning throughout the round. You just can't land anywhere and simply two-putt. I agree completely with Mark Fine who said during our round together last Thursday that John keeps the greens rather tame to avoid high level stress for the membership. Get the greens to a steady diet of 11 and above (trust me I'm not advocating this Mark!) on the Stimp and you will see plenty of grown men cry!!!

Too much of slope / ratings place too heavy an emphasis on elements relating to potential lost balls and the amount of water & OB. Lehigh has plenty of trouble areas -- they're just not so obvious.

Mark Fine:

Mark, when you say additional changes (adding length to #1 and #18) may mean other changes being made. I wonder what you mean by that. Is just adding another tee pad extension to #1 and #18 really that earth shattering?

Regards,

[Scott_Burroughs]

Lehigh is 72.1 and 127 from the tips.  It is the 127 that we all seemed to agree was low.  With all that elevation change, long par 3's, tough greens with bunkers you DON'T want to be in, a slope in the 130's seems more appropriate.  But I guess with that high rating for a par 70, the slope may not be so far off, given how slope is calculated.

Matt,
   I indeed played Twisted Dune Friday morning (swept the dew, first group off) and enjoyed it a lot.  14-17 is a tremendous stretch of holes.  I didn't feel 18 was as "boring" a finisher as you felt it is.  The fairway somewhat pinches in the landing area, with that HUGE bunker guarding the left side, and with the far back right pin placement they had, getting close to it was tough.  You absolutely didn't want to be right.  It also didn't play nearly as long as it did when you played it, as the wind was coming from the right.  I only had a 7-iron in from the 472 yard tees.

I don't know how they figured #12 as the #2 handicap hole.  We thought it was the easiest hole on the back nine.  #14 seemed the toughest to us.

I also played Beechtree in the afternoon and enjoyed that a lot as well.  Got to walk and carry at both, which is unusual these days.

Will you be playing as much golf around the country now that you're married?  

[Chris DeNigris]

I stumbled on this great thread in the archives while looking up some info on Lehigh.

It really is a Fine example of what the discourse used to be like here a decade ago.

I only wish that I had become enlightened about this GCA stuff earlier and had found this site back then.

One of Joe B’s terrific photo tours got me interested in Lehigh and a couple of holes stood out and made me check out the old files. I particularly liked the look and “feel” of 12 (the hole just seemed to speak to me in Joe’s photos) and the greensite at 15.

The commentary about 11 and the grass bunkers was intriguing.

Have there been any significant changes to Lehigh since this 2001 thread and is there more consensus regarding its relative position amongst PA’s best?

[Mark McKeever]

 Chris,

There have been lots of positive changes out at Lehigh since 2001.  You really should get back to see it as should anyone in the area. 


As for the work, they have been adding length to the longer par 4's while keeping the shorter ones in tact.  Thus helping protect the quirkyness of some of the holes, which is great.  One thing you will be shocked to see is the fantastic tree work the club has been doing.  Many of the evergreens have been taken down to open up views between holes, and its done wonders.   

Mark

[Ed Brzezowski]

It comes up for rating this year and hopefully Bob Harris will think it is too far to travel.  Looks like a gem.

[Jud_T]

Clearly it must have some as none of the major golf publications have ever ranked it.

#97 on Golfweek Classic List

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/13/2012-golfweeks-best-classic-courses/?RANKINGS-GolfweeksBest

[Bob Harris]

It comes up for rating this year and hopefully Bob Harris will think it is too far to travel.  Looks like a gem.

Ed,

We're selecting courses this Monday and Lehigh is #3 on my list.  Jack may have the first or second pick so you need to do some lobbying with him.

Bob

[Ed Brzezowski]

Hello Bob,

Captain Jack has some business to attend to, so I am attending the conclave.

Is it true white smoke puffs out the windows at the conclusion ??

Ed

[Bob Harris]

Can't divulge all the secrets, but the new guy has to bring the coffee.

[Bill Brightly]

I stumbled on this great thread in the archives while looking up some info on Lehigh.

It really is a Fine example of what the discourse used to be like here a decade ago.

I only wish that I had become enlightened about this GCA stuff earlier and had found this site back then.

Great thread, but it is a Fine example of the time when CGA was brand new. A time when it was possible to create a great new thread by merely mentioning a good course, because all the the comments would be fresh by definition. A time when Ran posted on a regular basis, someone with an an eye for golf course architecture as good as anyone, in a class with Brad Klein, Pat Mucci, and others. I wish I was there too!

[John Burnes]

I played here today with some friends and walked away amazed with the course.  After coming down from such a great experience, I naturally tried to think where it ranks on my personal all-time list.  Needless to say, it ranks quite high.  I couldn't disagree more with some comments on #11, I hit green side in two with a great chance for eagle.  The bunkering would be ideal, but the little Lehigh simply won't allow it.  Comparing the cost of monthly repairs on bunkers vs flower beds from Home Depot isn't a real conversation. The "drop shot" par threes are awesome.  Both of which alone are now on my all time list. 

I played very good for me, so I suppose the slope could be strengthened, but I assume tougher pins could address this.  Literally, the only thing I would improve is the club's logo.

I guess I can add to my (biased) list, that the Philly area has the best private golf in the country.

[Peter Zarlengo]

John,

I agree, Lehigh is impressive. And as the title of the thread suggests, it's hard to find a weakness in its design. There are some thrilling golf shots and wonderful greensites there as the routing goes back and forth between rolling hills and creek valley.

The club undertook a lot of work a year ago paying off in the look and playability of the place. Tees were rearranged, trees removed, bunkers restored, and paths rerouted, which all polished up what was a great classic course to begin with. A big congrats to John Chassard and Ron Forse.

re: the 11th hole, I think the awkwardness of the hole's topography actually works in its favor as it places an emphasis on the tee shot, giving the player who finds the right side of the fairway options in an easy lay up or a chance at the green. If you don't find the fairway, the layup is no gimme and a short par-5 becomes difficult with a carry at some point over the creek to a perched and sloped green.

And I'll say this, in my 3 years working in Philadelphia, I never had more fun than my four months working at Lehigh.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Clearly it must have some as none of the major golf publications have ever ranked it.

#97 on Golfweek Classic List

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/13/2012-golfweeks-best-classic-courses/?RANKINGS-GolfweeksBest

But it fell from # 82

And you have to understand how there's an ebb and flow in the higher half of the top 100

[Bill Brightly]

Clearly it must have some as none of the major golf publications have ever ranked it.

#97 on Golfweek Classic List

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/13/2012-golfweeks-best-classic-courses/?RANKINGS-GolfweeksBest

But it fell from # 82

And you have to understand how there's an ebb and flow in the higher half of the top 100

And how there is probably very little to distinguish the higher half of the top 100 from those courses ranked 100-150.

I really like Lehigh but for me, the 11th is a good example of a bland par 5 connector hole on a challenging site. Unless you are incredibly long off the tee or love any "Risk/Reward" shot no matter how unbalanced the risk is, I think this hole demands a lay up short of the river for a simple wedge to the green. And since the vast majority of players can reach the same layup spot, it must be a tremendous maintenance challenge to keep this area from being a divot minefield.

[Mark_Fine]

Wow, what an old tread!  Have to once again defend my favorite hole on the golf course, #11.  It was inspired by #7 at Pine Valley (you all do know that Flynn replicated #7 multiple times (at least the design concept of the hole).  #11 at Lehigh is one of those.  A long drive hit short of the hazard, then a carry shot over the hazard to a short shot over another hazard to the green.  The beauty of #11 at Lehigh is that with a long well placed tee shot, the golfer knows on the tee there is a chance to go for the green in two (an added risk/reward feature that #7 at Pine Valley doesn't really afford).  It also adds some extra pressure to the tee shot which otherwise should be straight forward.  In the summer when the course is firm and fast, sometimes only a 3W is required off the tee to keep from running over the hill.  The shot on top of the hill creates lots of temptation to go for the green.  It is also the smallest green on the course and the short wedge shot from the bottom of the hill is no bargain (you miss on the sides and it is a tough up and down with the unpredictable grass hollows which by the way are much tougher than a green surrounded by sand).  It is an outstanding golf hole and a great example of the genus of Flynn! 

[Bill Brightly]

Mark,

If we played the hole 10 times with all good tee shots, and you go for the green every time while I lay up with a mid iron, I bet my stroke average beats yours...

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
You could say the same thing if we played the 13th hole at Augusta National 10 times.  That doesn't make either hole any less great.  Maybe if you played from a different tee box on each you would view the holes differently?  The shot from the top of the hill at Lehigh to the green is only 190-200 yards downhill (big hitters hit as little a 7 irons).  It might not be the smartest shot to go for it but that is one of the beauties of the design - it creates temptation and gets the best of golfer's egos!  It is hard for most golfers to layup if they are in good position at the top of the hill and hit two wedges knowing they can reach that green with an iron, hybrid or wood and maybe make a 3 or 4!  Most amateurs are capable of reaching the green from the top of that hill.  How do you play #7 at Pine Valley?  Do you like that hole?  My guess is not at all because if you don't hit a great tee shot you can't even carry the acre!  Now you have to hit a 50 yard pitch for your second and that is no fun 😉

[Bill Brightly]

Mark, do you really think players were capable of carrying the ball to the top of the hill when Flynn designed the hole?

You can't have it both ways. The hole may play well as a great risk reward hole TODAY for bombers, but when Flynn designed the hole I bet it was a true three shot hole. So I can't give Flynn credit for great design. With all due respect to him, I think he just needed to get the field back across the river...

I stand ready to be corrected if the original tee was short enough to allow for a decision on the second shot.

Augusta's 13th is a poor example for you to use. The truly long hitters who can properly shape a shot and use the fairway downslope can get into mid iron range. (Forget Bubba....) The "reward" side of the equation goes way up when you are talking mid iron versus the 3 wood you need at Lehigh. You would be a fool to go for the green at Augusta with a 3 wood, right? But 4 or 5 iron... then you have to think.

I played a match there against a true bomber. I hit driver-6 or 7 iron to the landing area. He hit driver-3 wood and bailed out a bit long and right. I'll take my simple wedge from the fairway any day versus his awkward pitch from the rough to that very small green.

[Mark_Fine]

Bill, golfers in Flynn's time absolutely could reach the top of the hill.  The fairway even has a turbo kick at about 225-230 off the primary tee that propels the ball forward.  You don't need to be a bomber and you don't need a 3W second to reach that green.  I am not the longest hitter and I played the tips the other day and hit 5I second shot to that green.  My 5I is on average a 180 club (the second shot is big time down hill).  Those fairways used to be firm and fast (that is how golfers in the early days ran the ball over the hill on for example another great hole #14 - roll on the ground!  You need to play #11 a few more times to appreciate just how good it is for an decent golfer.  I will grant you that a weaker golfer needs to play it as a three shot hole especially if they are playing the wrong tees.  But the same could be said of the hole it was modeled after #7 at Pine Valley.  For a less than decent golfer that hole is near unplayable!  

[Bill Brightly]

I agree that I need to play it more. Will do so asap!

But geeze, I must be a weaker player! I played it from the tips in an interclub match, hit a decent faded driver on the right side  (I think I was on the upslope with a blind second shot) and thought "no way I'm going for that green."

[John Burnes]

Bill- I delayed in responding to your opinion that the hole is a bland connector hole.  I couldn't disagree more as I think it's a top three hole there.  It provided one of those moments when I went back to the bag twice before deciding what to do.  I hit my hook/drunken sailor/tumbler/ tee ball to the the end of the fairway on the right.  My friends had told me it was the line off the tee (boy were they right).  I then debated before deciding to go for it.  I hit it green side, and I agree that it's an awkward shot but I got a drop as my ball was embedded.  I got up and down for birdie and moved on.  I agree to those who think there should be bunkering, but the little Lehigh won't allow it.  I also respect your point on Flynn's initial design idea (off the tee) but I have to think the tees were up (I could be wrong).  Either way, today, I think it's an awesome hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark & Bill,

It's been a while since I played Lehigh so I don't recall the 11th hole's original length and length today.

I do remember laying up on my second

Bill,

Time of year probably influences play a good deal.
I would imagine that playing in the Spring would tend to reduce the probability of going for it in two.