[jeffwarne]

For those who want all markers removed, what's stopping you from the "pleasure" of using no yardage reference.

That's easy to answer.

Because your opponent has an unfair advantage of having the exact yardage provided to him.

Isn't a good caddie (vs. a bad one) an unfair advantage at an unmarked course?

[Jim Franklin]

Is the quarterback provided the distance to his receiver, a moving target ?
Are hockey, lacrosse and soccer players given the distance to the goal ?
Are basketball players provided the distance to the rim ?


Pat -

Lacrosse players, hockey players etc...know how far the restraining line is from the goal, or the blue line etc... those things do not change. All fields are identical. Golf courses change everyday, from course to course and from pin location to pin location. I am like you, I would rather know the distance and then I will hit the shot though.

[Anthony Fowler]

  Are mechanics the only important part of the game? 

Not at all.  Players with good distance control must learn to take in the yardage information, and all sorts of visual and sensual cues such as wind, temperature, humidity, internal feelings etc.  Then he must decide on a very specific shot and execute.  This is not a purely mechanical approach to the game.  But knowing the initial yardage is quite helpful is establishing a framework for this.  

Pat Mucci's discussion of club selection brings up a good point.  Far too many players are too dependent on the yardages they have in their mind for each club.  If the best shot is a 130 yard 4 iron, then one must play that shot.  Far too many players cannot bring themselves to do this.  Growing up in San Diego, I rarely had to vary club selection by more than 1 club to compensate for wind.  Now I am learning the are of the 180 yard 3 wood at Pat described.

Jon, I never said that yardage was the only information required in determining the correct shot to play.  However, distance information is important for a skilled player and not as important for unskilled players.  So, do I think we should take away the yardages?  No.  Rather, the unskilled players should work on controlling their distances.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Patrick

I am wrong on yardage markers?

Are you saying they appeared at the same time as the electronic GPS/Range Finders, because that does not fit my memory. They appeared on the course well before GPS etc so they have been around a fair time. That being the case then my comment is right.

Jeff

I don't use Caddies, unless they carry my clubs without a bag and heads pointing forwards.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
I'm with you but......
but should your game be dependent upon the knowledge or skill of your caddy?
Let's face it some caddies are better than others.

TRUE ....... that's why they get paid better than bad caddies.

I understand you not wanting the club dictated to you as you want to hit a variety of shots with different clubs and trajectories.

However, if you're going to get yardages from your caddy, how is that different than markers or God forbid rangefinders?

Let's go back in time when there were no yardage markers.
Caddies had to judge distance just like the players did.
They could be equal to, better or worse at it.
And, if there was a conflict in the judgement of the caddy and his player, that just created more doubt in the player's mind.

Historically, the caddy was an integral part of the golfer's "team"

i.e. if you're going to have no yardages, have no yardages.
meaning your caddy shouldn't have a book (nor should you).
and play simply by eyesight, experience, and judgement.


I'd agree.
I have no problem with that.

About a year ago, a member of the group I've been playing with for 40+ years bought a sky caddy.  As I was getting ready to hit a shot he asked me if I wanted to know the distance to the hole.  I said, "NO".  He was shocked and kept on insisting that he be allowed to tell me.  I told him that I knew how the shot played, that I'd been playing it for over 50 years and that I didn't need some device to complicate matters.  I hit the shot fairly close to the hole and he said that if I had known the exact yardage I would have hit a better shot.  I told him that I knew the exact club and exactly how to hit it, and that that would get me the closest to the hole.

I'm all for eliminating the 5 minute conferences (yardages to the front, etc. just give me a headache)

It's absurd.
It's part of what makes a 3 hour round a 4-5 hour round.

Last thursday I played with another fellow and it took us 3 hours to play
27 holes.  And, we didn't rush.

Which of course brings up a related subject...
Competitors (particularly higher handicappers-but not always) being allowed to choose their caddy for the Club Championship.


When I was tournament chairman I banned the practice.
Caddies were chosen by lot not by choice.
The complaints were vocal, but the practice remained for as long as I was chairman.

It becomes a playing lesson which slows down the game and frankly(can be) a real edge for a high handicapper playing another high handicapper with a bag carrier.

I'd say Bones and Phil have done more to slow down and ruin the game than any other factor.

And, once it's on TV, it's monkey see, monkey do.

[John Burzynski]

I would vote for banning GPS, lasers and most yardage markers, maybe keep the 150 yard bush or something like that, even sprinkler heads are Ok with me.

Once you play a course a couple of times, you tend to know what club to use from a certain spot or area on a course based on experience of shots you hit on that course in past rounds.  On course I regularly play, I just know what club to hit because I have hit x iron from that general area before and had success, fallen short, whatever.  Only weather make a large difference in club selection, and GPS or laser don't help then, anyhow.

Only when encountering a course one has never played do yardage markers become much more important.  Even then, I'll bet many of us would golf better by sight and feel.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

I am wrong on yardage markers?

YES

Are you saying they appeared at the same time as the electronic GPS/Range Finders, because that does not fit my memory.


NO
I never said that.
I provided you with the history of yardage indicators.

They appeared on the course well before GPS etc so they have been around a fair time.

Just because they existed before GPS, etc., doesn't mean that they've been around for a long time in the context of the play of the game.

That being the case then my comment is right.

No, it's not.
They're a recent addition in the spectrum of the play of the game.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Patrick

I believe you are confused and not read my post correctly.

May I suggest you re-read my comments starting with ‘ Yardage or distance aids, not to be confused with distance one hits the Tees shot or the length of the course or hole one is playing’.

I believe I am correct and you have misunderstood.

I like the positive way in which you state that I am wrong 

[jeffwarne]

Pat,
I'm with you but......
but should your game be dependent upon the knowledge or skill of your caddy?
Let's face it some caddies are better than others.

TRUE ....... that's why they get paid better than bad caddies.

I understand you not wanting the club dictated to you as you want to hit a variety of shots with different clubs and trajectories.

However, if you're going to get yardages from your caddy, how is that different than markers or God forbid rangefinders?

Let's go back in time when there were no yardage markers.
Caddies had to judge distance just like the players did.
They could be equal to, better or worse at it.
And, if there was a conflict in the judgement of the caddy and his player, that just created more doubt in the player's mind.

Historically, the caddy was an integral part of the golfer's "team"

i.e. if you're going to have no yardages, have no yardages.
meaning your caddy shouldn't have a book (nor should you).
and play simply by eyesight, experience, and judgement.


I'd agree.
I have no problem with that.

About a year ago, a member of the group I've been playing with for 40+ years bought a sky caddy.  As I was getting ready to hit a shot he asked me if I wanted to know the distance to the hole.  I said, "NO".  He was shocked and kept on insisting that he be allowed to tell me.  I told him that I knew how the shot played, that I'd been playing it for over 50 years and that I didn't need some device to complicate matters.  I hit the shot fairly close to the hole and he said that if I had known the exact yardage I would have hit a better shot.  I told him that I knew the exact club and exactly how to hit it, and that that would get me the closest to the hole.

I'm all for eliminating the 5 minute conferences (yardages to the front, etc. just give me a headache)

It's absurd.
It's part of what makes a 3 hour round a 4-5 hour round.

Last thursday I played with another fellow and it took us 3 hours to play
27 holes.  And, we didn't rush.

Which of course brings up a related subject...
Competitors (particularly higher handicappers-but not always) being allowed to choose their caddy for the Club Championship.


When I was tournament chairman I banned the practice.
Caddies were chosen by lot not by choice.
The complaints were vocal, but the practice remained for as long as I was chairman.

It becomes a playing lesson which slows down the game and frankly(can be) a real edge for a high handicapper playing another high handicapper with a bag carrier.

I'd say Bones and Phil have done more to slow down and ruin the game than any other factor.

And, once it's on TV, it's monkey see, monkey do.

Patrick,
If we had committees at our club (which we don't)
you'd be the committee.

Fortunately, we have a committee of one who sees it pretty much your way.
Caddies by lot it is--can't wait to hear the screams

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

I believe you are confused and not read my post correctly.

I like being confused.

As to reading your post correctly, perhaps your writing needs to have more clarity.

May I suggest you re-read my comments starting with ‘ Yardage or distance aids, not to be confused with distance one hits the Tees shot or the length of the course or hole one is playing’.

That's the one part I understood.

I believe I am correct and you have misunderstood.

Are you correct in what you believe I misunderstood, or correct in what I misunderstood, or incorrect in what you wrote ?

I like the positive way in which you state that I am wrong 

Are you positive about that, or are you wrong ?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Patrick

  

[archie_struthers]

 


Fun, quirky , interesting but it's got no shot ...zero ...nada ...zippo!

Can you imagine people walking off shot after shot to get accurate yardage ...just imagine the horror !

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

I agree, you're not going to go from an overload of information on yardage to NO information on yardage.

It took more than 50 years to go from no yardage indicators to a zillion indicators.

Any reversal would have to be done over time.

However, with the USGA's recent approval of lasers, GPS, etc., etc., I don't think anything will be done, except at the local level with clubs like Pine Valley, Merion and Friar's Head.

Quite simply, the guiding body has lost its way.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

What will happen to the Sky Caddy business?

Here's the latest and greatest:

www.uprogps.com

[Bill Brightly]

Arguing that yardage markers should be removed is a little silly, don't you think? It has ZERO chance of happening. For better or worse, knowing the exact distance to the hole is so engrained in the game now. I guarantee that if a vote were taken on this website, where golf "purists" are likely to hang out, such a proposal would be soundly defeated. Try taking them off a golf course and the members would riot in the streets!

I think a more relevant question is the use of visual markers versus plates. I am Grounds Chair, and after installing a new irrigation system, we marked all the heads (front-middle-back) and pulled all the 100 and 150 posts. We also dug up the painted red, white and blue concrete discs. We did this because:

1) The committee likes the idea of getting rid of unnatural objects such as posts
2) The old posts and painted plates were off by a few yards
3) It saves time for the maintenance crew. They don’t have to get off the mower, pull the post, cut that area, get off the mower, and put the post back. This time adds up and we'd rather have them fixing divots or something else!
4) We tripled the number of marked sprinkler heads, so there is plenty of info out there.

Guess what? A significant number of members are PISSED! Especially the cart riders. They had become so accustomed to seeing the posts as they approached their ball (then pacing off from the marked heads...) and they don't like change! I can't walk out of the pro shop without getting an earful. But we will stick to our guns, and they will adjust. I think it's like quitting smoking: it is very hard for a while but it passes with time!

[BVince]

Removing yardage markers, GPS systems, or anything else providing an accuate distance might matter for about two weeks before golfers discover another method.

For example, it is very easy to determing key points on the golf course and know the yardage to the green.  Knowing a bunker is 150 yards to the front of the green, knowing a key tree is 134 to the front, etc. 

For the argument that it will somehow equalize the players ability, that is totally absurd.  I understand the 'idea' behind it, but the better players will become much better in visually seeing a distance.  Heck, when I play a round at my home course I pretty much know what I am going to hit without the use of a sprinkler head.  Pin placements play a bigger role in that, and to be honest, it is still fairly easy to determine where the pin is just by looking at the green without a pin sheet.

I don't think it would speed up the game.  I don't think it would be a popular decision.  I don't think it would effect scores. 

If the game is getting too easy, which I assume Tiger would be the first to complain, then go Pro.  I think some of you guys are trying to prove you are a purist.  Nothing is stopping you from playing like one.  Don't use a tee, use a sand hill.  Don't look at the yardage markers.  Pull out your wooden shafted irons.  Play an "old school" golf ball.  I am NOT saying technology should continue to go without boundaries, but I am saying that yardage markers are good for the game.  If you disagree, don't use them.  If anyone thinks its a big equalizer....well, I am currently a 2 handicap and will play any 7 or higher for as much money as you want on a course without sprinkler heads.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Byron,

Well said!!!!

"If the game is getting too easy, which I assume Tiger would be the first to complain, then go Pro.  I think some of you guys are trying to prove you are a purist.  Nothing is stopping you from playing like one.  Don't use a tee, use a sand hill.  Don't look at the yardage markers.  Pull out your wooden shafted irons.  Play an "old school" golf ball.  I am NOT saying technology should continue to go without boundaries, but I am saying that yardage markers are good for the game"

[Melvyn Morrow]

Steve

What an attitude, just because we don’t need help or toys to play our golf, you throw out all this crap.

What’s wrong, can’t play a real game of golf, can’t figure out distance, can't select your club without help. Use your yardage books, range finders, GPS etc, but at the end of the game your score is not all down to you, is it my friend?

But if that is how you want to play golf and it’s legal, enjoy yourself but remember you had help.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Arguing that yardage markers should be removed is a little silly, don't you think? It has ZERO chance of happening. For better or worse, knowing the exact distance to the hole is so engrained in the game now. I guarantee that if a vote were taken on this website, where golf "purists" are likely to hang out, such a proposal would be soundly defeated. Try taking them off a golf course and the members would riot in the streets!

Bill, it's like the tree issue.
A tree starts as an almost unnoticable sappling, into a small tree, then into a large tree.  It's increase in size is never noticed day to day.  But, remove it and it's immediately noticable.

The same with yardage markers.

One things for sure, if there's no objection to them, they'll remain as is.

I think a more relevant question is the use of visual markers versus plates. I am Grounds Chair, and after installing a new irrigation system, we marked all the heads (front-middle-back) and pulled all the 100 and 150 posts. We also dug up the painted red, white and blue concrete discs. We did this because:

1) The committee likes the idea of getting rid of unnatural objects such as posts
2) The old posts and painted plates were off by a few yards
3) It saves time for the maintenance crew. They don’t have to get off the mower, pull the post, cut that area, get off the mower, and put the post back. This time adds up and we'd rather have them fixing divots or something else!
4) We tripled the number of marked sprinkler heads, so there is plenty of info out there.

Now you just have to remove the markers on the sprinkler heads 

Guess what? A significant number of members are PISSED! Especially the cart riders. They had become so accustomed to seeing the posts as they approached their ball (then pacing off from the marked heads...) and they don't like change! I can't walk out of the pro shop without getting an earful. But we will stick to our guns, and they will adjust. I think it's like quitting smoking: it is very hard for a while but it passes with time!


Members complain about everything.
They complain when you add them, and they complain when you remove them.
That's why I like dictators.
There answer is, "If you don't like it here, resign and join another club that better suits your needs".

Once one member faction gains an advantage, the other factions vie for theirs.

The key is to make the changes off season, in the winter in your case.
3/4 of the membership won't see the changes and most will adjust to them by the time the first month of the season is over.  The key is to avoid telling them that you'll fix every problem they complain about.  Tell them that you're going to try it out for a season and see what happens.
By the time the next season rolls around it'll be over with as new issues will have come to the fore.

Trust me on this.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

If yardage markers are good for the game, as you state.

Why are rounds taking an hour or two longer than when there were NO yardage markers ?

[John Burzynski]

Steve,

If yardage markers are good for the game, as you state.

Why are rounds taking an hour or two longer than when there were NO yardage markers ?

Although not a fan of yardage markers, I am not sure that the above argument is entirely causation as much as it is partly a correlation.

It seems to me that this obsession that many golfers have with whether a shot is 163 or 165 or 168 yards away is partly to blame, as it causes golfers to agonize over which club to hit, when in truth it probably doesn't matter too much since most golfers aren't that accurate anyhow.  So I guess yardage markers may be partly to blame.

But also, there seems to be this prevailing attitutude of, " I paid X amount of dollars (usually high dollar) and I will play as slow or fast as I want to".  It is the general sense of entitilement and selfishness that seems to creap into society now and again these days.

And don't get me started on golf carts and how they slow things down. Unless you are old or medically disabled, you should walk.

I am beginning to sound like a curmudgeon at too tender of an age of 40...

[Mark Smolens]

Steve,

If yardage markers are good for the game, as you state.

Why are rounds taking an hour or two longer than when there were NO yardage markers ?

Any argument that the removal of yardage markers will bring back the days of 3 hour rounds of golf is nothing short of absurd.  The guys who are slow, will now pace off yardages to known distances (oh yeah, that tree was right next to the 150 bush. . . ).  Rounds take longer because people are idiots and think they have some god-given right to play slowly.  Whether it's because they don't know how to play in a cart, or the "entitlement" theory I don't know.  But it certainly isn't because information as to distances is available.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

The USGA addressed that practice when they banned going forward to determine yardage.

The application of that rule could easily be expanded.

I don't have great eye sight, but, I can approximate distance pretty well.

Maybe it's because I had to when I first started playing golf.

[Tom Yost]

Yeah, yeah...  back in THE GOOD OLD DAYS, we didn't have yardage markers!  Our caddies gave us the yardage   

Uh, guess what... as caddie services gradually disappeared and public golf grew, we saw the advent, growth and  evolution of on-course yardage aids.  These merely replace the service once provided by the caddie.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yeah, yeah...  back in THE GOOD OLD DAYS, we didn't have yardage markers!  Our caddies gave us the yardage   

How would the caddies know the yardage ?

Uh, guess what... as caddie services gradually disappeared and public golf grew, we saw the advent, growth and  evolution of on-course yardage aids.  These merely replace the service once provided by the caddie.

What's always amazed me about this debate is why golfers who have played a course for the last 10, 20 or more years need anything to determine the yardage other than their memory, UNLESS of course, they're on heavy drugs.

These aids/services have helped to SLOW the game.

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