[JamieS]

Ed,

"Golf is becoming monotonous, repetitive and easy"....for who...?

The majority of golfers I see at courses are still as bad as golfers of twenty years ago. They are now just as bad with Pro V1's, Jumbo Titanium Drivers, and Cavity back irons, as opposed to Balata's, Persimmon, and Forged Blades. The median handicap has not changed and has even gone up a bit over the last 20 years.

Getting rid of yardage markers is not an answer.

Your average golfer is not a Robot, in fact far from it. Tour level players are close to robots, they are great shot makers, they have the best short games on the planet by far. They have benefitted from technology more so than the average golfer.

There is enough variety and judgement in the game now for golfers of all levels. Even with the proper yardage, you still have things to factor such as wind, slope, lie, etc. Rounds of golf take long enough, eliminating yardage will add to more greens missed, more poor chips and pitches, which will add time, time, time!

"What God given right do we have to yardage?"
...what right does a basketball player have to know time on the shot clock, a football player to the down & yardage...I could go on and on. It is a an irrelevant question.

Yardage is part of the game, if you don't want to know, don't look for it! Simple problem solved!  

Rick,

Ben Hogan knew to the yard how far each of his clubs carried the ball under normal conditions, you would be mistaken if you think he played without knowing the exact yardages. Players of those days made their own yardage books, and had caddies that made yardage books for each course on tour. Mr. Hogan didn't spend all that time on the range pefecting his golf swing only to get on the course and "guess" how far he was from the hole.

[Dan Herrmann]

In the spirit of Shivas' Famous Cheater Line thread, I thought this might be a good one to bring back....

You're now King of Golf and can write any rules you'd like...

With regard to yardage markers, do you?
1.  Change nothing
2.  Ban GPS devices
3.  Ban all yardage markers
4.  Something else

[Ian_L]

Keep 100, 150, 200, and 250 yard markers, and give distances to blind hazards off the tee.  Ban all distance measuring equipment.  The only reason I would keep markers every 50 yards is so as not to give a huge advantage to the golfer who has played the course before. 

[John Foley]

While we're at it, lets ban the tee.

A sand pile was good enough for Old Tom, should be good enough for us!!

[Richard Choi]

Golf is becoming dull.<P>It is becoming monotonous, repetitive and easy. We all know this.

I do not know this game you are talking about.

Golf is hard. There are endless varieties of challenges. I cannot consistently repeat ANYTHING and it is anything BUT easy.

If it was, the average handicap would not be so high.

P.S. I would be all for removing yardage markers if architects stop using measurements or plans, builds the entire course by eye, and there is no such thing as par and course/hole yardage.

[Dan Herrmann]

John Foley - I agree with the spirit of your post.  I don't mind saying that I have a Sky Caddy.  There you go - I've been discovered

[Anthony Fowler]

I don't really know what you're talking about here.  Knowing the right distance and trying to dial it in just right is very fun and challenging.  Do you want to take that element of the game away?  Precise shotmaking? 

I suspect that some think that taking away yardage markers would add skill to the game.  I contend that it would do the exact opposite.  It would even the playing field among those who can dial in their yardages and those that can't.

Can someone tell the story of Anthony Kim on the 4th hole at Merion in the 05 US Am?  Maybe someone else knows the details better than I do. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Golf is becoming dull.<P>It is becoming monotonous, repetitive and easy. We all know this.<P>Let's remove yardage markers and bring back some variety, judgement, skill and excitement back into the gane.<P>Let's not become robots.

Ed,

I agree.

I played Friar's Head recently and had a great time.

The pace of play was great too.

[jeffwarne]

Golf is becoming dull.<P>It is becoming monotonous, repetitive and easy. We all know this.<P>Let's remove yardage markers and bring back some variety, judgement, skill and excitement back into the gane.<P>Let's not become robots.

Ed,

I agree.

I played Friar's Head recently and had a great time.

The pace of play was great too.

Patrick,
Did you play strictly by eye or were you given yardages by the caddy?
If by eye, did you think about the yardages?

[John Nixon]

I agree that eliminating yardage indicators would speed up the game.

Because most of the folks I see playing would quit after two weeks, and the courses I play would never be busy again.

[Ian_L]

I suspect that some think that taking away yardage markers would add skill to the game.  I contend that it would do the exact opposite.  It would even the playing field among those who can dial in their yardages and those that can't.

It would only "even the playing field" if for some reason bad golfers were better at judging distances than good golfers, where in fact in general the opposite is likely true. 

[Anthony Fowler]

I suspect that some think that taking away yardage markers would add skill to the game.  I contend that it would do the exact opposite.  It would even the playing field among those who can dial in their yardages and those that can't.

It would only "even the playing field" if for some reason bad golfers were better at judging distances than good golfers, where in fact in general the opposite is likely true. 

Ian, this is simply untrue.  A player who is skilled with his distance control will suffer from no yardage markers while a player who is unskilled is relatively indifferent.  An inconsistent ball striker who cannot control his distances will not really care what the exact yardage is because the variation in his actual distance is so much more than the units of measure that he gets.  A skilled players suffers dramatically.  This is a skill that I think should be rewarded.   

[Ian_L]

Good point, Anthony, I think you're right there.  But, why do you think knowing how to hit a shot 183 yards is more a part of the game than judging your distance from the green?  Should we have wind, pressure, and humidity measurements as well?  Are mechanics the only important part of the game? 

[Jon Wiggett]

Anthony,

I think you overestimate the abilities of most players to hit a ball a certain distance based purely on the distance information. It is true, that given a distance of say 163 yards to the flag is a help in decideing or confirming which club and how hard to hit it. This information doesnot however help me with the elevation change, wind direction and speed, air temperature, how the ball is sitting, my ball striking form that day, etc...... This is all information that must also be calculated but is not a definable as the distance.

I am pretty confident I could hit it within 5 yards distance wise of that target but I still need a visual reference to adapt my distance control. Hitting a ball in an open field with no references I am not sure I could bring about the same sort of accuracy.

By removing the yardage information you remove one if not the only definite pieces of information that I have but not the maybe the most important. Blind shots are not liked by most good players because they are less certain despite knowing the yardage. Take away the ability to judge the wind or even worse how the ball is sitting and that would make it more of a lottery. I think that removing the yardage would increase the skill required to play and make it more exciting to watch. Will it happen? NO.

[Sean_A]

I would without a shadow of a doubt ban yardage markers (and guns by association) with the possible exception of on the tee.  However, I would also make courses wider, greens more contoured with no double digit stimping, with less rough, less water,  less bunkering and more firm conditions.  To cap it off, I would take at least 5 clubs from the players' bag.  I think archies need all the help they can get in creating courses of interest.  I bet most of you are glad I am not the King of Golf!

Ciao

[James Boon]

I have to admit that I often look at yardage markers and have a good collection of course planners / yardage books...

But I'd vote for you Sean, not that you can vote for King of Golf, but you know what I mean!

Cheers

James

[Melvyn Morrow]

Should yardage markers be banned? I was not going to post a reply but it is an important topic and deserves a comment (again)

The same old subject keeps coming back, clearly shows many believe that it should be. But ultimately it is down to the individual golfer and his/her interpretation of why they play golf in the first place.

Many have voiced their concerns that distance aids can be described as an outside aid therefore not in keeping with the Spirit of the Game. I agree with that.

Yardage or distance aids, not to be confused with distance one hits the Tees shot or the length of the course or hole one is playing. These in my opinion just define the actual hole and par and in real terms offer no single advantage to one group of golfers but are open to all to absorb as and if required. They have also been around for decades unlike the electronic distance & yardage books which are a fairly new introduction to golf.

 Markers have been around for a lot longer but instead of using them as an approx. guide as to how far the pin is they have become a method of slowing the game. Allowing “Certain Golfer” the power to disrupt the game of others (perhaps initially to gain some advantage or cause frustration) by pacing out from these points. Perhaps I would not mind if they could convert the time and effort into a good measured shot, but alas the majority just make themselves look foolish and pretentious. Again that is their choice.

My fundamental concern is that these aids, from GPS, Range Finders, Yardage Books and Markers stop the golfer playing his natural game. Golf in my opinion is all about judgement, interpretation, co-ordination, the ability of mind and body to act as one against the course, weather and the terrain. Each golfer has it within themselves to play without these aids, so why have them. Simple answer may be to improve at any cost, irrespective if the information is alien to the human body or mind. But then I believe allowing children to use calculators in exams defeats the reason to teach them mathematics in the first place.

Am I a better golfer because I don’t use them, No.

I want to play the game in the manner it was taught to me,  To enjoy the exercise, the environment , feel Nature free and alive around me, to make my own decisions on what I see, that to me is what I mean when I refer to the Spirit of the Game of Golf.

The Rules of the Game allows aids, so the decision is yours to make – I just ask why do you need them? What is the cost to each of you that makes you feels the need to use them? I am lucky I play for fun and enjoyment and have always relied on my own ability to understand my game, can the same be said about your game if you use these aids?       

Because you use, need or just enjoy using distance aids, does not allow you the right to belittle those who feel the game gives enough in its natural form. Not forgetting we are not the ones using outside help to play our game.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I have always been and am still very keen on this idea.

In my opinion, it penalises the better player ahead of the weak player as the better player is the one who can play target golf with his distances....

...In addition, it would get people thinking more about their options and perhaps choosing ground game decisions over air game - think of those infinity green situations that would scare the living daylights out of you...

i'm not sure what affect it would have on speed of play... on one hand, golfers will speed up by not checking sprinkler heads / yardage books all the time... on the other, there will be more shots missed over greens that may mean more looking for balls...

Anyway, i just played County Down two weeks ago for the first time without yardage markers... What fun... Couldn't have picked a trickier course with so many carries and blind shots...

[jeffwarne]

I prefer less markers but a few visible ones for a quick reference.
Many courses, as they've become more sophisticated and labeled their sprinklers, have removed their vertical, visible 150 markers.
Such markers speed up the game for those who like some reference and then make an estimate from behind them or pace as they walk by to balls past the marker.
A lack of such visible markers slows the game in my opinion as players scurry to find heads.

For those who want all markers removed, what's stopping you from the "pleasure" of using no yardage reference.

[Sean_A]

I prefer less markers but a few visible ones for a quick reference.
Many courses, as they've become more sophisticated and labeled their sprinklers, have removed their vertical, visible 150 markers.
Such markers speed up the game for those who like some reference and then make an estimate from behind them or pace as they walk by to balls past the marker.
A lack of such visible markers slows the game in my opinion as players scurry to find heads.

For those who want all markers removed, what's stopping you from the "pleasure" of using no yardage reference.

Jeff

I often eschew the pleasures of markers.  For that reason, I particularly dislike vertical markers!  They are ugly and give the game away!

Ciao

[Adam Clayman]

It's the mediocre gca that yields the boringness. You could have markers every inch on a compelling design and it won't ever be boring.

[jeffwarne]

I prefer less markers but a few visible ones for a quick reference.
Many courses, as they've become more sophisticated and labeled their sprinklers, have removed their vertical, visible 150 markers.
Such markers speed up the game for those who like some reference and then make an estimate from behind them or pace as they walk by to balls past the marker.
A lack of such visible markers slows the game in my opinion as players scurry to find heads.

For those who want all markers removed, what's stopping you from the "pleasure" of using no yardage reference.

Jeff

I often eschew the pleasures of markers.  For that reason, I particularly dislike vertical markers!  They are ugly and give the game away!

Ciao

Sean,
A fair point.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Golf is becoming dull.<P>It is becoming monotonous, repetitive and easy. We all know this.<P>Let's remove yardage markers and bring back some variety, judgement, skill and excitement back into the gane.<P>Let's not become robots.

Ed,

I agree.

I played Friar's Head recently and had a great time.

The pace of play was great too.

Did you play strictly by eye or were you given yardages by the caddy?
If by eye, did you think about the yardages?

On the 1st hole the caddy "suggested" what club I should hit.
I told him that I hit a lot of "ginky" shots, that from 140 yards I might hit anything from a 9-iron to a 4-iron, so I'd prefer that he not "suggest" what club to hit.

From that point on it was a combination of me playing by feel and him indicating yardage.

# 10, the blind par 3 with the 66 yard green was a good example.
He told me where the pin was relative to the center of the green.  It was probably a 185-190 shot and I hit a choked down 3-wood to 15 feet.

On # 14, I was about 90 yards from the center of the green with the pin all the way back right.  I hit a choked down, punched 8 iron, trying to land it in the center of the green and have it roll up the hill to the hole.  

Melvyn Morrow is wrong, yardage markers HAVEN'T been around that long.

When I began playing there were NO yardage markers in the fairway.
Then, someone came up with the idea of planting bushes at 150 yards.
That gave way to stakes and/or plates.
Years later, when automated irrigation systems were put in, after some time, the yardages were indicated on the heads.

Initially everyone played by feel, it was a purer form of the game, because judgement was a critical factor in playing the game.

Recently, I played with a fellow who would have 5 minute conversations with his caddy over how far he was to the center of the green, where the pin was and what club to hit.  He's been a member 15 years and the caddy has been there for 10 years.   He's not that good a player that he can calibrate his irons to within 5 or 10 yards consistently.  So, what's the point of these never ending conferences other than SLOW PLAY.

Judging distance was and should be a critical component of playing the game and should be returned to the game.  It shouldn't be force fed to us.

Ken Bakst has it right.  Get rid of the yardage indicators and make golfers have to judge how far they are to their intended target.

Is the quarterback provided the distance to his receiver, a moving target ?
Are hockey, lacrosse and soccer players given the distance to the goal ?
Are basketball players provided the distance to the rim ?

Judgement is an integral part of those games and so it should be with golf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

For those who want all markers removed, what's stopping you from the "pleasure" of using no yardage reference.

That's easy to answer.

Because your opponent has an unfair advantage of having the exact yardage provided to him.

[jeffwarne]

Pat,
I'm with you but......
but should your game be dependent upon the knowledge or skill of your caddy?
Let's face it some caddies are better than others.

I understand you not wanting the club dictated to you as you want to hit a variety of shots with different clubs and trajectories.

However, if you're going to get yardages from your caddy, how is that different than markers or God forbid rangefinders?

i.e. if you're going to have no yardages, have no yardages.
meaning your caddy shouldn't have a book (nor should you).
and play simply by eyesight, experience, and judgement.

I'm all for eliminating the 5 minute conferences (yardages to the front, etc. just give me a headache)


Which of course brings up a related subject...
Competitors (particularly higher handicappers-but not always) being allowed to choose their caddy for the Club Championship.
It becomes a playing lesson which slows down the game and frankly(can be) a real edge for a high handicapper playing another high handicapper with a bag carrier.

I'd say Bones and Phil have done more to slow down and ruin the game than any other factor.

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