[ed_battye]

Golf is becoming dull.

It is becoming monotonous, repetitive and easy. We all know this.

Let's remove yardage markers and bring back some variety, judgement, skill and excitement back into the gane.

Let's not become robots.

[JP Morgan]

Yardage is critical when you are playing tournament or competetive golf.  This will never change.  The purists however reap far greater enjoyment and appreciation by feel.  The dynamics, strategy, and routing patterns can be more formally appreciated when one has to truly think his way around the course.  Surprises can be subtle or dramatic, yet lend to a greater appreciation of the design. For these reasons, I agree with you entirely.  (John Q. Public would not understand this concept however!)  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed Battye,

It never ceases to amaze me, I'm playing golf with fellow members, who have been members for forty (40) years, and they ask a caddy who has been caddying for two (2) weeks, how far they are.

Is it laziness, the need for re-inforcement, or plain stupidity ?

[ed_battye]

All three!

JP,
Why is yardage critical when playing tournament/competitive golf?

Man hath eyes.

He is able to judge the correct distance...if the architect is foolish enough to let him.

[Slag_Bandoon]

 I don't like yardage markers much and I always find myself peeking.  That's what I don't like about them -- another temptation to dim the exercises of the mind. I'm weak  

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

How about all of the above?

[JP Morgan]

Ed--
    My response regarding yardage as critical in tournament/competetive golf is obvious.  When the sole reason for playing is to win, or at least cash as much as possible, one must shoot the lowest score.  Today's players are deadly accurate in regards to distance control. Many professionals may request distance to the center and the pin, distance to the front edge, distance to clear a bunker or hazard, and distance from any possible slope effecting roll of the ball.  The reason being, they can put the ball where they want to.  Without a precise idea of how far they need to hit the ball, the likelihood of placing it close to the hole goes down dramatically.  Birdies generally come easier from within 10 feet than 40 feet.  That's pretty obvious and all that was meant by the statement.  
    Wouldn't it be great however to have a tournament in which there were absolutely NO yardage markers, no asking for distances, no practice rounds, and where one is not allowed to walk off a distance.  The player would need to rely solely on his eyes and the lay of the land to figure it all out.  It would create a whole new concept in regards to strategy, safe play, etc.  Take it one step further...he could not wander beyond his ball prior to hitting the next shot!!!   What a concept.  It will probably never happen, but it sure would be interesting wouldn't it?
    Speaking of this, which professionals do you think would excel at this format??  

[ed_getka]

I used to use yardage markers to confirm what my eye was seeing and it would help me commit to the shot at hand. Now over the years I find myself looking at shots and then when I look at the yardage marker a lot of times it doesn't seem right, so now I'm learning to trust what my eye is telling me. I'm weaning myself from yardage markers, especially since when I finally make it to Scotland there probably aren't a lot around. However, for the average golfer it probably helps speed of play to some extent. I might be wrong since the average golfer probably doesn't really know how far they hit the ball.

[John Q. Galea]

Not wander beyond your ball? JP, do you play like this? How about no practice swings? No "Maniac Hill"? Eyes closed? A little too esoteric, I don't get it.

[JP Morgan]

John Q.:
   The point of the post was to reinforce what Eddie B. was saying.  For obvious reasons, professionals who play for money want to know the exact distance.  But how good would they really be, and which of them would excel if they had no way other than their instincts to judge how far to hit a shot.  This all relates to the importance of knowing the exact distance, nothing more, nothing less.  The thread is "Should Yardage Markers be Banned?".  If they were, players who cared enough to know would simply waste more time walking it off and overanalyzing the situation to figure out how far to hit the ball.
    As for myself, I'll take your comments in jest.  However, I don't generally take practice swings, I do look at the ball, although sometimes it probably wouldn't matter, and yes, I do "wander" beyond the ball without penalty.  I never liked offsides in hockey, soccer, or even ticky tack calls in the NFL.  By the way, where is "Maniac Hill'??
   Cheers, JP

[Mark_Fine]

This topic was discussed not too long ago.  Hard to disagree with most of what anyone has said so far.  However, I will argue that even Old Tom Morris knew exactly how far he was on every important shot he played.  He might not have had a marker telling him a number, but he knew.  Today's markers are just supposed to save us time and speed up play, but we had that debate a few months ago.
Mark

[Mike O'Neill]

Leave the yardage markers. Those who don't believe in them, ignore them--you too Slag!  . Isn't it that simple?

[Mike O'Neill]

Leave the yardage markers. Those who don't believe in them, ignore them--you too Slag!  . Isn't it that simple?

[Mike O'Neill]

Leave the yardage markers. Those who don't believe in them, ignore them--you too Slag!  . Isn't it that simple?

[Pete Q. Galea]

JP, I get the gist of your post. I think the pros would do just fine, especially those with 20/20 vision. "Maniac Hill" was the first driving range, at Pinehurst, created by Donald Ross.
Golf is a game of judgement and perception. In reality, I love a course without distances, a'la SFGC.

[BillV]

Knowing the yardage is only a part of the equation and one that can be left out at that.  I played the first 10 years or so of my golf life until those Ed Carman redwhiteandblue mega-golfballs started to appear.

Banning them will not do anything.  People now get slow stepping off, with out markers, they'll be slow due to indecision and their entitled replays when they "had the yardage wrong".

I do like 150 barber poles for courses with which I am unfamiliar as it gives me a reference to play the hole more quickly.  These work really well for resort courses, I feel.

[Rick Shefchik]

I, too, would not object to the elimination of distance markets, sprinkler head yardages, etc., if courses decided to replace all that with a simple 150 yard stake. I'd even be willing to go back and play the way I did when I learned the game -- eyeballing the course and estimating distances, if that's the way everyone else had to play it, too. The pros will never accept a return to those days, however; one of the most holy parables in the game's history is Nicklaus learning (from Deane Beman, I believe) to pace off a golf course prior to a tournament.

And I doubt if I'd ever regain enough of my old estimating skills to try to play tournament golf that way, especially considering that my fellow competitors would certainly be making use of yardage information. We live in an information age now; although Ben Hogan apparantly did not need precise yardages to play so well in his era, I have no doubt he'd make use of all the information available to the field today.

It comes down to our natural desire to play our best golf. Could we all play our best golf without yardage information? Possibly, but not likely. Are we willing to play less than our best by intentionally ignoring information that might help us play better? That's a question for the individual to answer, but I'd lean towards doing whatever allowed me to hit more good shots -- within reasonable limits, of course. Back to where I started: I think one 150-yard stake would be a reasonable limit.

[ed_battye]

JP
I know what you meant, it's just a shame that yardage indicators are critical. What God given right does a golfer have to know the exact distance he has to the front, back or whereever of whatever.

Mark Fine
Sorry to bring up an old chestnut, am new to the site and didn't spot anything in the archives.

[Mike O'Neill]

Ed, What God given right do golfers have to anything? How about golf gloves? Is there a God given right to those? Distance is part of the game. If everyone who wants to play by "feel" will just avert their eyes when encountering sprinkler heads and the like, it should all work out. Don't we have to recognize ALL of the assistance we as golfers accept? Golf gloves, golf shoes, the newest grips and shafts, lob wedges, level tees, evenly mowed greens and fairways, firm and wide and fast conditions which are easier to play than narrow fairways bordered by lush rough? The list goes on and on. Isn't it the tendency to want what we want and criticize the golfers who use what we DON'T want? What if playing by "feel" meant playing without a golf glove with grips that were last changed in 1968 wearing some beat up Chuck Taylors?

[Mike O'Neill]

Ed, What God given right do golfers have to anything? How about golf gloves? Is there a God given right to those? Distance is part of the game. If everyone who wants to play by "feel" will just avert their eyes when encountering sprinkler heads and the like, it should all work out. Don't we have to recognize ALL of the assistance we as golfers accept? Golf gloves, golf shoes, the newest grips and shafts, lob wedges, level tees, evenly mowed greens and fairways, firm and wide and fast conditions which are easier to play than narrow fairways bordered by lush rough? The list goes on and on. Isn't it the tendency to want what we want and criticize the golfers who use what we DON'T want? What if playing by "feel" meant playing without a golf glove with grips that were last changed in 1968 wearing some beat up Chuck Taylors?

[Jay]

Ed-
Golf is easy?
You don't hear that one every day.  
Last time I checked though, the tees were still on the tees, and the holes were still on the greens. And most everybody was still trying to break 100.
When are you available for a golf lesson?  
Jay

[TEPaul]

We did have this exact discussion before. If purists don't want to play by yardage markers and yardages then they should just ignore them. But you will never take away some golfers desire and inclination to find out what their distance is so we should just leave the yardage markers. If you don't we're going to have exactly the same situation as we had when yardage knowledge started to evolve in the first place--golfers (and caddies) are going to start to make little books of yardages from specific trees, obvious features whatever!

You will never stop that practice and if you don't give them the info they will probably take much longer than they do now to find it and figure it out. My Dad (who was a tournament golfer) and all his contemporaries starting in the 1940s-1950s and on all used yardage but they did them on their own--they were always looking for some kind of edge. When my Dad died (in 1992) I found boxes and boxes of little booklets from all the courses he ever competed on in the attic--he did them all himself!

[ed_battye]

Mike,

The point I was trying to make wasn't whether or not golfers should play by "feel". It was to say, hey, look if we eliminate yardage indicators and take away something which most players take for granted, especially so at the highest level, golf would be more exciting to play and watch.

More greens would be missed therefore more emphsis would be on a players recovery game, not simply a weekly putting competition.

Tangible things such as gloves, clubs, shafts, grips etc... will continually improve. Distance cannot, only our knowledge of it. By eliminating this knowledge golf would be better off.

Why not make obtaining a distance against the rules of golf? No pacing, no yardage booklets....

Jay,
I think golf is becoming 'easier'. But it's just as frustrating.

[TEPaul]

Ed:

Now you're getting into an area that really makes little sense and is one that would never be remotely considered. An attempt to make a golfer's intent and desire to gain  knowledge about the golf course against the Rules of Golf!? Maybe the Rules of Golf don't allow a golfer to scrape the putting surface and such but that has practical implications involving the play of others that does make sense.

You are asking golf legislators to be a bunch of Bowdlerizers and Luddites that ban golfers from using their easy access to yardages, booklets etc. They are going to find it out somehow without that easy access and the whole process is going to make things far more cumbersome and far slower. You can't stop them from doing it in the rules--that will never happen!

[Mike O'Neill]

Ed,

I did not mean to say that you used the word "feel" but that is a word often used on this site when commenting on yardage markers and the like. But I disagree in a sense. Golf gloves fall into the category of those tools that help the golfer just like yardage markers. I still ask everyone on this site who picks and chooses from that category of tools that helps the golfer, how can you pick one thing as an advantage to your game and criticize something else just because you can live without it? Golf wasn't originally played with spiked shoes, was it? We ought to be consistent, no?

By the way, glad you've joined in the discussion.

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