[SPDB]

Do you think that the USGA would follow a World Golf Tour event with the US Open? in my mind that pretty much sealed Bellerive's fate.
But what about Hazeltine?

[John_Conley]

Spiderbite:

Hazeltine seems to have settled in to a rotation with the PGA of America, not the USGA.  I know they are on the docket for two events upcoming - one is a PGA Championship and the other may even be a Ryder Cup.

No one will support events better than the citizens of Minnesota, and the venue is of championship quality.  But it would seem that the USGA doesn't really have it in their future, notwithstanding this year's Team Championship (won by MN!).

Regarding Sea Island vs. Ocean Forest in the USGA's eyes... Sea Island has hosted the U.S. Women's Senior Am and Ocean Forest held the Walkeer Cup because it has members from both the USGA and R&A.  I don't think either is favored one way or the other.  I also don't think either will host a U.S. Open in my lifetime.

[SPDB]

John -
I don't either. In fact I think that the chances of the US Open visiting a Fazio courses are very slim, but the topic is thought provoking, and so I respond.

However, the more Fazio begins to build up north, the better his chances become. His design work in the Northeast has begun to ramp. He has a piece of property he is working on in Bedminster, NJ that used to be the estate of John DeLorean. Untouched, the land has all the trappings of a US Open type property (whatever the hell that means). Whether a US Open type course will follow is mere speculation. I have a friend who is heading up the Fazio design team, and he promises good things, so maybe he'll produce something that will silence the critics on this site.

stay tuned.

[Slag_Bandoon]

DeLorean site, eh?  I suppose the bunkers will have very white and fine powdery sands in them. Be hard to keep the loose swing going by the end of a round there.  Caddies would be showing up on milk cartons.

[SPDB]

Slag -
Yes, the bunkers will be scratched out from old DeLorean deposits around the property. They will be the only bunkers on earth to have a "street value," and be expressed not in terms of size, but rather in weight. I can see the course guide..."The player will need a heroic tee shot to carry the 2.5 million kilo bunker which guards the corner."

[GarySmith]

SPDB,

It will be 2010 or later before there would be U.S. Open opening for Bellerive. I don't see how an Open held there could be seen as following any world tour event held there prior to 2005 or so.

The west coast is probably going to get the Open openings in 2008 and 2009.

As has been posted, Hazeltine is doing a dance with the PGA championship. (2002 and 2009, I believe)  

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Wigler,

It is doubtful that Shoal Creek could host an Open in June, the greens would never hold up.  And, the facilities aren't there.

Valhalla

Shadow Creek could never hold an OPEN in June for the exact same reasons that Shoal Creek can't.  And, there is almost NO gallery room at Shadow Creek.

I heard the members yelling, "we're not worthy, we're not worthy",  and I think that says it all.

I believe that Jack Nicklaus is the greatest player to ever have played the game.  
His record, over time, speaks for itself.
I don't think that necessarily equates to reaching the same heights in his design career.

[Anthony_Nysse]

From the things that i've read, Victoria National was built witht he intension of bringing an Open to Southern Indiana.  Fazio is quoted in Golf Digest as saying that the course is US OPEN quality and that if the wind blew, it would be too hard. If the awarded an OPEN to VN, they would find a way to accomodate 30,000 people a day. Many think that it's Fazio's best and many love the ruggedness of it. The greens would definatly be able to get up to OPEN quality being L-93, along with the fairways. If there happen to be a large rain at night, they have SUB-AIR, so they would be able to get rid of the water. I think that VN has possibilites.

[nicfic]

An Open at Victoria National? With the silly tee box positions only a goat would see a drive.

[David Wigler]

Anthony,

I am one of the raters who is totally enamored with Victoria National.  In my mind, it is clearly (And I mean better with a gap) better than Hazeltine, Bellerive, Atlanta, Champions and several other open courses.  That written, it simply cannot hold an Open.  Every fairway sits on its own Island.  We were told that there were over 10 miles of cart paths.  Fazio did a brilliant job of routing a walking course but that would be roped off from spectators.  You could not get viewing flow through the course.  The only solution where 30,000 people a day could get on Victoria National is with a floating barge system throughout the Finger Lakes.  That is not realistic.  I would love to see a US Amateur at Victoria.  It simply does not have the spectator areas necessary for an Open.

Patrick,

I am not debating the merits of Valhalla (which I feel is a solid 6 or 7 on the Doak scale).  Nor am I debating Nicklaus's merits as an architect.  Two weeks from now, I am going to play Bear's Best out in Vegas.  It is a compilation of Jack's best 18 holes.  I have already played Bear's worst.  It is called The Bear in Northern Michigan and it is a compilation of the 18 worst holes ever designed.  The question was which courses could hold an Open.  Shoal Creek and Valhalla both have the infrastructure necessary to host the event.  The PGA’s played at both came off fairly smoothly.  Greens holding up is an issue solved with money.  If the courses wanted to insure greens, they could put in a cooling system like Victoria or Shadow Creek.  If Southern Hills can host a US Open than Shoal and Valhalla can.  From an architecture standpoint, if I was offered plane tickets and a round of golf at Shoal Creek, Valhalla, Hazeltine (Sorry I keep picking on it John but IMHO it is not a very good course), Champions, Bellerive, or Atlanta; Shoal Creek and Valhalla are my first two choices.

I realize that the USGA is not coming to Vegas but why did you not think Shadow Creek could do it?  The greens have the in ground cooling systems and certainly could hold up.  I have played Shadow in the summer and it was in better shape than Southern Dunes.  I can see where 30,000 spectators would go and all around the property is open land that could be built to support the infrastructure.  This is all conjecture because I cannot believe Shadow would want an Open, but I think it could work.

[kilfara]

Not that the USGA needs any more courses in the NYC metropolitan area...but what about Hudson National? (Maybe the PGA would be interested....)

Cheers,
Darren

[John_Conley]

Wiggles:

Don't apologize to me.  HAZELTINE is a lot of things, but in my list of the Top 5 around MSP it's not.

I think it is a great tournament venue, as evidenced by the U.S. Open for Men, Women, and Seniors.  It has also held the State Team, a Mid-Am, and the NCAA Championships.  Next up are two PGA Championships.

The characteristics that knock it down a few notches for everyday play are the same ones that make it a great test, but only for players of the highest talents.  It is frankly too hard for the average golfer.

I think it does have some very good holes.  My fave?  #10, with a beautiful drop to the green in front of the lake.  (If you haven't been there, the greens of 10 and 16 sit very close to each other.

Other good holes... #6, whose approach is similar to #11 at Augusta.  #8, great use of a small, angled green on a short par 3.  #16 of course.

I feel its weakness is that there are too many long, tough, bland holes - which is definitely not a weakness for tournament golf.  The main culprits?  #9 and #18.  These run side by side up a hill and measure about 450.  The U.S. Open champion should have to navigate such a hole.  Others in the long and bland category include #s 1, 2, and 12 for par 4s, and a pretty bad mix of par 5s.

[SPDB]

I don't think Hudson National would work. For starters, I don't think the USGA would look to fondly on the long walk betw. the 2 green and 3 tee, which is usually acommodated by a golf cart.

For some reason, this course has always rubbed me the wrong way. I feel like they wanted to beef up the length a little bit, so they dumped it into the par 3s, causing one to have a forced carry of about 230 yards. The hole is just silly.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Slag and Sean,
I'm having a pretty good chuckle reminding myself of the videotape with DeLorean in that hotel room surrounded by undercover FBI agents looking at the briefcase saying, "This stuff is like gold!!!!"

Isn't unbeleiavble what lengths some people will go, no matter what their affluence?

[John_Conley]

Spiderbite:

I was "awe-ful-struck" by Hudson when I played it.  There is a reason there wasn't anything on that site for the last 70 years.

I was told the first of the 250 yard par 3s was supposed to be more like 190, but they couldn't touch the wetlands.  The second, wide-open and downhill, actually suits me fine.

Not my kind of course, and, no, the USGA won't get there with so many other championship venues near the Apple.

[SPDB]

John -
I agree with your assessment of the other long par 3. I actually think it is terrific. It has wonderful redan characteristics, unlike any other Fazio par 3 I am familiar with.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Wigler,

I believe Southern Hills has bent greens.

I'm not sure of the that the greens at Shadow Creek could hold up to being shaved to 11 + on the stimp, in June.  And, I would suspect the same of Shoal Creek.

Putting in underground cooling systems after the greens have been built would probably require large sums of money and ample healing time, and even then, there is no guarantee the greens would have OPEN quality putting surfaces.

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