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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2001, 04:54:00 AM »
I have had this debate privately with several of you and now I will have it publicly.  I have played seven or eight Nicklaus designs and on a whole, I like his work.  Contrary to Gib's feelings, IMHO Nicklaus challenges a golfer from tee to green far more than Fazio or Doak.  To criticize Nicklaus for only featuring an aerial assault would corollary to criticizing Crenshaw / Coore for only featuring a ground assault.  It comes down to which you prefer to play.  

Nicklaus' work at SouthShore C.C. in Las Vegas is terrific.  I am terribly upset that Gib cannot join me there so we could have an eighteen hole running debate.  I think SouthShore offers everything necessary for a great golf course.  Nicklaus' work across the street at public Reflections Bay has made for one of the better twenty or so public golf courses in the country (Although at $250.00 per round, how public is it?).  I agree with above that Chiricahua and Geranimo are solid golf courses.  From the pictures I have seen, Old Works in Montana and Cabo Del Sol both look inspired.  

Every time I make this argument, I get The Bear and his ego thrown at me.  Firstly, I agree that The Bear is over-the-top putrid.  I would venture to guess that we could come up with equal efforts of putridity for every architect with a body of work over twenty-five courses.  Second, his ego has nothing to do with his talents.  It may make him insufferable at a cocktail party (Although he would still be my first selection in a dream foursome) but it has nothing to do with talent.  So Dan, to answer your question, I proudly state that from what I have seen, I like Nicklaus' work!

And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

BillV

"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2001, 05:56:00 AM »
David Wigler

Food for thought...

Da Bear's work is predictable, doncha' think?  In Colorado, as Doug lists there is a certain consistency to his work although I never got to play the new one he did in Glenwood Springs. Breckinridge is definitely worth a look as being out of the mold.  The greens are the smallest that Jack ever had his name on at any time!

His work does seem relatively unidimensional to me, but I know what I am going to get, a challenge at least.  More than can be said for some.

And Mike Cirba is right, I was pleasantly surprized by the Great Bear course in the poconos.  It is probably the first recommendation I'd give up there.  It's not good enough to make GW Modern top 100, but it is solid and fun to play and comoes pretty close.  And the par 3 13th (?) isn't bad, either.  I certainly have more fun than Gib on a Nick course at least some of the time.

I was really left cold by Colleton River, having been told how different it was for nicklaus.  Not.

Really, I don't hate Nicklaus work at all, but he doesn't get me excited either most of the time.  A definite positive vote for Great Bear, though. It doesn't ask for a fade all of the time.    Several holes a draw works very, very nicely!


THuckaby2

"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2001, 06:02:00 AM »
Dan Kelly - re Cabo del Sol v. El Dorado, I go back and forth, and usually just prefer the course I most recently played!  That's El Dorado right now, so I am with you, brother.  The holes sweeping down to the sea there are incredible.

I'd say one can't go wrong with either course.  I'm not gonna defend either as any architectural marvel, although I'd guess someone with a better eye could even do that... Each is just the type of course that provides VERY fun golf, and some damn incredible scenery.

Works for me....

TH


SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2001, 06:03:00 AM »
Bill -
I think the strongest par 3 @ Great Bear is the 200 yd 2nd hole. Slightly over a ravine (not enough to qualify as a forced carry) - downhill to a terrific green perched into the side of a hill. The next hole (3) is also a stunnner, where you drive to the crest of a hill and then have a 180-200 yard shot down hill into a very nice green where they usually have the pin tucked cozily behind a small greenside bunker.

very nice indeed.


aclayman

"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2001, 06:30:00 AM »
Perhaps there are just too many distractions?

For instance; When the pasaputrid course was negotiated, Jack has in his contract that his co. runs the show for a minimum # of years and if the owner(s) decide to give him the boot. The head pro must leave too.

1. What the hell is a course designer doing worry about anything other than the task at hand?

2. Who in their right mind would want to be a head-pro at at JN course if you were being manipulated in someone else's contract?


David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2001, 06:37:00 AM »
Bill,

I do not disagree that Nicklaus design philosophy has been predictable (Old Works, Cabo, El Dorado and some of his new stuff seem to be breaking this mold though).  I do not think that this differentiates him from almost any other architect.  I could have walked onto Cuscowilla or Talking Stick and definitively said Crenshaw / Coore.  I walk onto Shadow Creek or Primm and no question it is Fazio.  BlackWolf Run or TPC Sawgrass and it is slam-dunk Dye.  U of M or Scarlet - definitely Mackenzie.  Almost every designer had predictable styles.  I would venture to guess that the majority of us who use this site could play one course each from Mackenzie, Ross, Nicklaus, Dye, Coore, Palmer, Fazio, Doak, RTJ, and Rees Jones without knowing who did what and get at least eight and probably all ten accurately identified.  

Volcanic Hill is predictably excellent each time I drink a glass.  Each Cuban Montecristo Montecristo A is predictably perfect when my buddies bring me some back from a business trip to Brazil.  Ruth Chris makes a predictably excellent Filet.  Twenty pages into Lord of The Rings, I could predict Frodo's result.  Do not confuse predictability with a lack of talent.  I would love Bruce Lietzke's predictable golf game J.

And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

BillV

"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2001, 06:59:00 AM »
David

Predictability or reproducability and variability need to be balanced.  Sometimes Jack didn't do that enough.

I want my shot requirements to vary more than my ceeegars.  


David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2001, 07:11:00 AM »
Bill,

Good Point!

And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2001, 12:11:00 PM »
I have only played two Nicklaus courses before and like so many of you, I have had mixed feelings regarding them.  

I played Jack's Great Waters course at Reynolds Plantation on Lake Oconee, Ga and thought it was positively the most overrated course I have ever stepped foot on.  Don't get me wrong, there are a couple of good holes there (4, 9, 16- which surprisingly begs for a draw!) but there are way to many holes on the course in the mediocre to bad range for me to consider the course great.

The other Nicklaus course I played was the exact opposite... Old Works in Montana.  While my game (after two weeks of backpacking in Yellowstone) stunk, the course was great.  It was a strong and interesting design; and anyone who knows the history of the site and anything about environmental engineering has to respect the incredible reclaimation work done and how that literally saved the city of Anaconda.  Some great holes include #6 (one of the most unique holes in the world), 7, 10, 12 (a good hole for the ground game), 16 (a long cape par 4), and 18.

On another note (and this should also be on another thread... the one about worst holes) a new Nicklaus course has opened in my home town.  I haven't been home from college to play it yet (its called bear creek, in Douglasville, Georgia) but I have heard that the entire course sits on very extreme terrain and its 18th (along with a few other holes) could qualify as one of the worst holes in the world.  18 is a 480 yard par 4 with a long forced carry over wetlands from the tee.  Then the approach shot is steeply uphill, all over creeks/wetlands and up a  bluff to a green perched on the steep grade.  No bail out, and because of the wetlands if you cannot reach the green, you still have to lay back well over 100 yards from the green.  Like I said, I haven't played the course yet but of the 25 people I have talked to that have, every one puts the 18th in their "worst hole" book.  Additionally, the course was labeled as a "golden bear design" which I heard somewhere is a part of Nicklaus design, but it is the segment of the company for courses that Jack actually has no input on, only his staff.  I am not sure of that, but from what I have heard of the course it wouldn't surprise me.


cardyin

"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2001, 05:21:00 PM »
I believe the moral of Nicklaus golf designs odyssey is that, sooner or later, everyone has to answer to someone.  There are the Nicklaus courses of the mid-1980s--some day they may put Long Bay and C.C. of the Rockies under glass as illustrative of that era of ultra-severe placement of hazards and funky greens complexes.  The problem with that genre of courses is that they are no fun to play.  I think it all started to change with Colleton River, a course that in my opinion has more different looks than any other course except Cypress Point.  It looks like the workers were on valium --quieter holes, occasional openings to the  greens and quieter greens. It is the kind of course on which Raymond Floyd could shoot 62, as he did in the Wendy's Challenge.  I believe the reason it all started to change is because owners/developers discovered they could not recoup their investment in land sales and memberships from courses that were no fun to play--no matter the name of the designer. I detect a considerable change in Nicklaus company design philosophy since Colleton
River.  Of course, Nicklaus has spoken to it,
and I haven't been there, but I have been told by members that he has appeared before the membership of some clubs, apologized for the greens and offered to rebuild them free.
Finally, I must say that I never have played a Nicklaus course which was not in excellent condition, and the infrastructure of each of them is top-notch.  Nicklaus is not my favorite designer, but I think his products continue to evolve and improve.

Gib Papazian

"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2001, 10:19:00 AM »
Cardyin,

Interesting that you find a change in their general philosophy. While I would agree that they no longer deface the landscape as badly as their work at Grand Cypress, their overall philosophy has not evolved as much as migrated towards watered down versions of the same tired ideas.

I am not willing to throw the Bear out with the bathwater primarily because his courses often seem to have at least 9 or 10 really well conceived golf holes. The problem is that the rest are either long, bland and demanding or completely over the top.

The reasons his courses are well received by the professionals is that the conditioning is nearly always excellent - although I cannot imagine how much unnecessary money has to be allocated every year to maintain the severe slopes. Superintendents must hate his designs.

Another reason the professionals generally like his work is that they have the high, soft iron shots down to a science. But if you do not have that in the bag - or the distance off the tee to leave a short to mid iron, it becomes a mind-numbing string of  impossible shots.

I've said before that golf ought to be 18 different questions, not the same question 18 times in a row.

If there is one theme I see over and over it is that his courses lack degrees of trouble. First, you get presented with a 3-iron high cut, and if you cannot conjure up that ball flight, the ball is deposited in a deep bunker with little hope of recovery.

Either you are on the putting surface, or absolutely hosed. You are either on the fairway, or find your ball on a steep hanging lie with no hope of doing anything put chopping it back into play.

Wedge play was never his strong point, and his green complexes lack any creativity or suggestion of short game interest.

In short, Jack's architecture ultimately becomes I call "Or Else" courses.

Hit the shot, "or else."


Gib_Papazian

"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2001, 07:30:00 AM »
On the subject of Mayacama: I have two friends who have played there whose opinions I respect quite a bit.

One thought it was delightful, fun and wants to go play it again.

The other thought it was an unplayable disaster. No fun at all and will never go back.

Both are 3 handicappers.

Any opinions out there? As soon as my wrist heals, I'm going up thee and would like to know what the Treehouse thinks.  


Tommy_Naccarato

"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2001, 07:38:00 AM »
I think you should wait for me to get up there so we can also do some damage to those wineries.


Gib_Papazian

"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2001, 07:57:00 AM »
Just what the Napa Valley needs, Naccarato and Gib, overserved on expensive vino (with Neal Meagher and Stettner in tow), loudly pontificating our brain buzzed golf opinions to the horror of the Blue Bloods who paid $200,000 to join Mayacama . . . .  

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2001, 05:27:00 PM »
Gib,
That would be a lot of entertainment for those fortunate enough to hear the discussion.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Gib_Papazian

"Another Nicklaus Debacle"
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2001, 08:46:00 AM »
Ed,

Nice thought, but it might be a bit less entertaining if you were the one who flopped open the checkbook and bought into the myth of Nicklaus omnipotence for 6 figures.


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