[Tommy_Naccarato]

No, not Merion. The bunkers aren't completely ready yet. It may take another 70 years.

But in all seriousness, I have asked this question in another topic, but want to make it a full blown epic/knock-down/drag-out bash.

If you are a USGA Official who is deciding which course to bring the US Open to, which one would it be and why? Now this course HAS to be able to handle the big event, just like all of the classics that have been torn asunder, just for four days every 10+ years.

We are talking accomdations for contestants and fans alike.  Room for luxury suites; conference centers, TV production facilities, Dan Hicks tralier and Johnny Miller's watercloset, etc, etc, etc.

Which Fazio course can challenge the best players in the world to win such a high and dubious honor?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

And for those of you with the faintest of hearts......

Knock down drag out bash was meant not in the "bash the architect" sense, it was meant in a festive spirit.

However, if you do feel the need to expound some pent-up frustration to release on the Faz, after ponying-up the $175.00 to play the morose, but beautifully scened Pelican Hill, go right ahead.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

You sly devil.

Would you accept an amendment to your question ??

Throw in Nicklaus courses as well ??

[T_MacWood]

Riviera and Merion are long shots, perhaps Conway Farms.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Patrick,
Absolutely! But only if Gib particpates

[David Wigler]

Patrick,

Your subtle shot at Nicklaus is appreciated but actually not germane to the topic.  Clearly, the one thing Tommy left out (And I suspect is was intentional) was that the course be worthy of hosting such an event.  If worthiness were part of the USGA equation than Hazeltine, Atlanta AC, Bellerive and several others would not have hosted such an event.  Clearly, in the Nicklaus category, Shoal Creek and Valhalla have both shown that they could host an Open.  I think an argument could be made for Southshore C.C. in Vegas having the necessary infrastructure, course and support as well (Although realistically the USGA is not going to host a US Open in Las Vegas - for an answer as to why, refer to Catcher in the Rye).

Fazio presents a more interesting question.  Victoria National has a golf course that could hold up very well and would look great on television but it has no chance to handle the infrastructure of an Open with 30,000 people a day.  The two Fazio courses that come to my mind as courses that could host an Open are Butler National and Shadow Creek.  Obviously there are problems with both from the USGA's standpoint.  Butler is a men’s club and after the Shoal Creek incident, I could not imagine a scenario where the USGA would return to Butler.  Shadow Creek would be a fantastic Open course.  It is easily walkable and has tons of room for spectators.  #18 would set up perfectly for hospitality tents.  The clubhouse would work fine.  Obviously there would be several problems.  The course would need to be toughened up considerably to hold up to the best players in the world but that is easily done.  Vegas in June would be a sweatshop and again referencing Catcher in the Rye, I do not believe the USGA would host a major event in Las Vegas.  That written, I think Shadow Creek is the one Fazio that has all of the other elements necessary to host an Open.  

Bash away!

[Mike_Cirba]

Wasn't it "Golf Digest" that ran a side-by-side comparison of Pine Valley and Tom Fazio's new, adjacent Pine Hill and basically concluded that there isn't a lot of difference except that Pine Hill has longer par fours*?

Seems an easy choice to me, and is only a short drive from Far Hills.

* The suggestion above reflects none of the bias of this contributor hoping for a US Open return to the Philadelphia region, nor his concurrence with "Golf Digest" on the actual validity of this silly comparison.  

[Mike_Cirba]

The above post was made tongue-in-cheek given some of the local and national press hyperbole about Pine Hill.

But seriously, what about places like Forest Creek (which I haven't played) that are generally regarded quite highly?  Victoria seems to be unable to accommodate spectators from what I understand, and Shadow Creek would be in Las Vegas in June.  Any actual contenders out there?

[Gimpy]

Forest Creek does not have the clubhouse and locker room facilities at this time. I think the club plans to build a "grand" clubhouse later, but as of now, operates in a large house/grill room, pro shop arrangement (very nice).  The course is heavily lined with trees and would make the grand stands and seating an issue.  

I undertand Forest Creek is building another 18 hole course.  Perhaps Forest Creek could layout a "championship" course using both courses (I understand Fazio is building the second course).  By the time the second course is built, the clubhouse and locker facilities might be in place.

[aclayman]

ANGC  

[RAW]

It would be hard to imagine the USGA hosting an Open 4 miles from Pinehurst #2. Personally I feel Forest Creek is a truer test than #2. It does not require the "gimmicks" that have been  introduced to the #2 green surrounds in preperation for the Open.

The third nine at Forest Creek is under construction. Four holes are currrently playable. The other five should be complete by 2002.

[SPDB]

What about the Seaside course at Sea Island?
It could be beefed up a little bit, but the piece of property is terrific. Or better still, could there be a combination of holes from Plantation and Seaside? Architects that would be represented (since redesign, some more prominently than others) are Colt, Alison, Travis, Fazio, Dick Wilson and Rees Jones.
Also, although I have not played it, what about Wade Hampton? I don't think the Open has ever been played in a mountain course, save for Cherry Hills, which is not really a mountain course, save for its elevation.

[Jeff_Lewis]

don't look now, but isn't holding a senior open now considered a prerequisite for holding the open? anybody remember where next year's senior open is being held? If that goes well and scoring is USGA-appropriate, have to believe Caves gets on the radar screen, though Butler is the most obvious choice.

[Mike_Cirba]

Isn't Butler a George Fazio design?  Let's not forget who was the "big idea" guy back then, as Tom would likely describe him.  

[Keith Williams]

SPDB

I have heard that the Seaside course at Sea Island is spectacular, but I would find it difficult to believe that the USGA would go all the way down to the Georgia coast to host the Open and not put in on Ocean Forest.  While Seaside may be great, it is already apparent that the USGA favors Ocean Forest (the Walker Cup) and it doesn't hurt that it was designed by Rees, who the USGA seems to favor when updating courses for the Open.  I'll be honest, though, I would love seeing either course host it just so that we could get an Open here in the south that would not only be on a great course, but additonally on a great southern course that has the constant element of wind.

[Keith Williams]

Here are a couple of courses to toss out.  I don't know if I would claim that any of these deserve an Open (or if logistically they could even play host) but I would be interested in hearing everyone's opinion.

Black Diamond Ranch
Jupiter Hills (with his uncle, of course)
The Quarry at La Quinta
World Woods (Pine Barrens, undoubtedly)
Barton Creek (already has history with
     hosting Liberty-Mutual Legends)
Karsten Creek
...or even the new Camp Creek Golf Club in  Florida (only half a mile from beach...great potential for windy weather)

Anyway, like I said, this is kind of a devil's advocate stance, but each of these courses has something intereestig about it that would make it unique for the Open

[John_Conley]

Keith:

The U.S. Open in Grayson Beach, FL?  That'll never happen, but a nice thought.  I like Camp Creek.

The U.S. Open is played in June, ruling out Florida.  The toll road from Tampa supposedly drops you off near World Woods.

Like the FSGA this year, using Rolling Oaks as well would allow for a larger field.  

[SPDB]

Keith -
Much to the disappointment of many who post here, I think Fazio has displaced Rees as the GCA the USGA turns to when work is needed to its stable of courses. Evidence of this is Fazio's work at Merion, Winged Foot, Oak Hill and Oakmont.

I don't know that this would have any bearing on Ocean Forest v. Sea Island, though. I think most of this discussion is irrelevant since the USGA seems inclined to stick with its traditional rota of classic courses, once in awhile removing one (Merion) while adding others (Pinehurst, Olympia Fields). Indeed, the Open has only been held at 3 post-1950 course since...well...1950. Hazeltine, Bellerive and Champions. Don't know if they will ever go back to Hazeltine, but they are certainly not returning to Bellerive or Champions.

if there is an articulated policy or interest on behalf of the USGA to explore newer courses I don't know of it.

I have always believed that the US Open should be reserved for the older classic courses, while the PGA should make an effort to play its championships on the newer courses. It would make it a lot more interesting, and really add in some variety. The caveat is that they should play the PGA at good new courses, not Valhalla. A better example is Whistling Straits. This type of strategy would really go a long way to showcasing some of the post-WW II courses that have been built, which is very good, and should not be neglected because of the  view that classic courses represent the paradigm for championship tournament (which they very well might, but for variety's sake why not try it?).
US Open - pre-1955 courses
PGA - post-1955 courses

[SPDB]

My misspellings and grammatical errors made that last posting a real strain to read.
Apologies

sean

[John_McMillan]

The correct answer is that both courses are in Ohio.  

For Fazio - Sand Ridge

For Nicklaus - Muirfield Village

[Tim_Weiman]

Tommy:

As you know, Sand Ridge was not built for tournament play, but I believe it would be capable of holding a US Open. Facts to consider:

1) The course could be set up to play between 7,200 - 7,300 yards.

2) The greens can easily be taken to the 12-13 level on the stimpmeter and provide all the putting challenge one could handle.

3) The blue grass rough could be maintained at a level lower than typical USGA set up standards (say 3.5 inches) and still provide a very strong incentive for accurate tee shot/iron play.

4) The golf course sits on 365 acres and has plenty of room for 30,000 spectators.  The only major logistical problem would be the two bridges over the wetlands between #11/#12 and #15/#16.

5) There would be plenty of room for corporate tents, though the modest clubhouse facitilies would require some adjustment.

6) There would be ample space for nearby parking.

7) The course is near a major metropolitan area capable of the necessary hotels, restaurants, etc.

Overall, Sand Ridge has most of the things needed to host such an event and, for better or worse, could be set up in a manner the USGA traditionally prefers.  An Open qualifier was held at Sand Ridge a few years ago.  The low round was 69; average score was 77.  

Do not, however, look for Sand Ridge to be considered. I do not believe the membership would look kindly on the hassles associated with such an event.

[john f]

Kieth brings up a good one, Karsten Creek. I've heard it's a good place any thoughts?

Gotta be better than SH last year.

[BillV]

Courses not built on a core concept are really really shitty for major tone-a-mints.  

Victoria National can't handle the crowds as Wigler said. The course probably could provide the "test".  It might even be more satisfying than Valhalla National.

Maybe Berkely Hall since "core" golf is its calling card.

I have a real problem with non-core courses for tournaments.  Real problems.  They really provide tremendoius hurdles for the spectators.  For an Amateur, oK. US Open, no.

Just try to visualize an Open at .......The Estancia.  That 6.5 on the eastern PA richter at 12 noon was me shuddering.  

[Craig Van Egmond]

I have played Karsten Creek numerous times and I feel the course is very good and could be made extremely tough, I doubt its ability to support a major tournament.

Its not a great course for spectators and getting around, there is minimal parking and no place for tents and such.  I doubt there are enough hotel rooms in Stillwater for all the people either, but people could stay in OKC.

[GarySmith]

SPDB,

I wouldn't be entirely sure that the USGA will never return to Bellerive for the Open one day. They are holding a U.S. Senior Open there sometime in the next few years, and if everything goes well that can sometimes lead to the big event. The USGA also wants mid-western sites thrown into the hopper, and St. Louis has all the right neccessities.

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