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Patrick_Mucci

A good begining and end
« on: October 14, 2001, 11:05:00 AM »
What courses have the best combination of starting and finishing holes, and WHY ?

My biased answer is NGLA.


Dan Kelly

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A good begining and end
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2001, 11:12:00 AM »
Patrick --

NGLA?

Why? (Hey, it was YOUR question!)  

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Ran Morrissett

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A good begining and end
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2001, 12:03:00 PM »
I'll match 1-3 and 16-18 at Sand Hills against NGLA, in part because of its greater variety. Those six pars at SH go 5-4-3-5-3-4 while NGLA goes 4-4-4-4-4-5.

Plus, St. Andrews 1-2, 16-18 is also near my idea of perfection with 1 and 18 being bunkerless.

I querry if the 1st green at NGLA is conducive to getting play off to a smooth start? Not that a great first hole at a private club necessarily has to do that, but 5 putting the first green can ruin anyone's day  


Patrick_Mucci

A good begining and end
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2001, 12:04:00 PM »
Dan Kelly,

You're right, I forgot.

I'll try to provide my answers in match and medal play perspective.

As an informational point, my experience at NGLA is that the breeze picks up from the morning, such that it is usually stronger when you reach the 18th hole.

Medal play:

The first hole appears benign, with a wide fairway for conservative play with a
3-iron to driver, with a more challenging second shot, and it presents an opportunity for a bolder drive to adequate fairway and rough area, for a prefered angle of attack for a relatively short second shot.  But,
now the terror begins.  The green is frightening if you don't hit the plateau or bowl where the pin resides.

At 327 yards, downhill from the championship course, one is both HAPPY and FORTUNATE to walk off the first green with a par.  

All too often, ones day gets off to a rocky start when a bogie or WORSE is carded on # 1.

Match play allows for bolder play, though not always with positive results.  There is also a tendency to play your opponent, not the hole, which can be dangerous.  I've seen golfers drive the first green, and make SEVEN.  

I find that the riskier drive puts pressure on an opponent if you have the honor, and pressure on your opponents second shot if they played first, with the conservative drive.  Again, the fun begins on the green.
But, shots hit from the safer, shorter, middle of the fairway have a far harder shot to the pin then the more aggressive drive, which has a fairly benign shot into a green composed of plateaus and bowls.

# 18

# 18 is only 502 yards from the championship tee, though it is rising substantially uphill.  Two huge bunkers, one deep, lie left. to the right, dunes and marsh grass lie below the level of the fairway.
As you ascend from the tee to the highly elevated green site, the right side of the hole falls off sharply to the bay and areas to frightening to describe.  Deep bunkers are both left and right in the fairway and off fairway areas as you hit your second shot.

The green sits on a plateau, falling off sharply to the right 60 or more feet, it falls off steeply to the rear by 40 or more feet and it rolls off to the left by about
6-8 feet, severly penalizing any ball that misses the green, except a short ball.  Even from 40-60-80-100 yards, the shot into the green is scarey and if the wind is blowing, which it usually does, it's frightening !

Match play.

It is such a great hole because of the decisions you have to make, depending on whether you're one up, even or one down.

Now, there are two rules on the tee shot,
Rule # 1.  Don't hit it into the left bunker.
Rule # 2   Go back and reread rule # 1.

For long hitters the bunker can be carried, giving the golfer a PREFERED angle of attack into the green or short green area.  But, if you go in that bunker, forget about birdie,  par may be gone as well.  If you hit your tee shot safely to the right, you now have to hit over bunkers, and if you favor the left side for your second, into a bunkered area.

Assuming you execute a second shot that leaves you 180 to 60 yards from the green, you're still faced with an incredible demanding shot.

Medal Play,

The risk/reward aspects are great.

Hit a conservative tee shot and you're left with a demanding second shot, and always a demanding third shot.

Play an aggressive tee shot and you're left with a better angle for your second, but, the third still takes nerve.

Looking at the 18th green from 60-80-120-180 yards out, it looks like the planet ends, behind and right of the green.

Sorry for the long response, but I wanted to try to convey my thoughts on the play of both holes.  Perhaps TEPaul and others can provide their thoughts.

I will post Pictures shortly.  Unfortunately, they are blurry.  I need to buy a digital camera.


Patrick_Mucci

A good begining and end
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2001, 12:08:00 PM »
Ran,

Perhaps I didn't explain the post thoroughly.

It only applies to holes # 1 and # 18.

Please delete your misquided post.  


Gene Greco

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A good begining and end
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2001, 12:43:00 PM »
It is unquestionably either Sand Hills or Merion. Both holes introduce their respective golf courses as beautifully as any and both end with two of the most brutal and memorable closers the world over.
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Matt_Ward

A good begining and end
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2001, 01:38:00 PM »
I'd have to say the toughest beginning and toughest ending is Winged Foot West's.

The downside? With the exception of 3rd they are all par-4's. Obviously, the final four holes are all tough long par-4's.

From a standpoint of mixture of holes (par and yardage) I'd also include Skokie.

1st hole -- great opening par-4 / 442 yards
2nd hole -- solid par-3 / 195 yards
3rd hole -- demanding par-5 / 568 yards
4th hole -- first rate par-4 / 441 yards

15th hole -- super short par-4 / 348 yards
16th hole -- quality, long par-3 / 250 yards
17th hole -- dog-leg left par-4 / 446 yards
18th hole -- bear finishing par-4 / 464 yards

My best bet for such consideration is Riviera --

Great opening  par-5 hole
Solid 2nd uphill long par-4
Good medium length par-4 3rd
Superb long par-3 4th

Closing four are also dynamite holes
#15 -- great long par-4
#16 -- classic short par-3
#17 -- Excellent long par-5
#18 -- One of the finest finishing holes in all of golf!

Regards,


ed_getka

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A good begining and end
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2001, 01:47:00 PM »
Patrick,
Thanks for the informative descriptions of the holes at NGLA. I haven't had the privilege of playing there yet, but I enjoyed your input.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

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A good begining and end
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2001, 01:48:00 PM »
Patrick,
Thanks for the informative descriptions of the holes at NGLA. I haven't had the privilege of playing there yet, but I enjoyed your input. Can you try to describe #1 green and surrounds so I can try to picture how someone can drive the green and end up with a 7?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Gene Greco

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A good begining and end
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2001, 02:55:00 PM »
Ed:

 Elevated green with a convex front leading to a tightly mown fairway like #9 at Augusta. About a twelve hundred square foot rectangle. Two buried Volkswagons and two gravesites with downhill convexities on the left leading to two cavernous bunkers with a stimp of usually 12-13. The green is also hard as a rock.

"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Patrick_Mucci

A good begining and end
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2001, 04:04:00 PM »
Matt Ward,

I meant to confine my post to the First and Eighteenth holes ONLY, and it wasn't in the context of the hardest opening and finishing hole,(which Winged Foot has).

Can any course compare to the seemingly benign 1st and 18th at NGLA ?


Patrick_Mucci

A good begining and end
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2001, 04:26:00 PM »
Ed Getka,

I'll try and perhaps others can assist me.

The green is hidden behind a bunker 15-30 yards short of the green, from the center and right side of the fairway.  The front is visible from the left center of the fairway.

The green has a general cant from the right to the left, front to back, although plateaus and bowls within the green may go in opposite directions.

The green is elevated with sloping fairway leading into the front.  The left side slopes into deep bunkers as does the rear.
There are bunkers to the right of the green, but they are relatively shallow.

The front of the green emerges from the sloping fairway.  Weak shots will come back down the fairway, as will shots hit to the front with considerable back spin.

As you get into the green, a plateau in the shape of a modified Y or T emerges, leaving mini bowls on the front left, back left, front right and rear right.  I would estimate the bottom of the right bowls to be
two (2) feet below the plateau, and the bottom of the left bowls, 3-4 feet below the top of the plateau.

I will, through the capable abilities of Tommy Naccarato, be posting pictures of the hole, including the green.  Unfortunately, the quality of the pictures, scanned into the site are mediocre, and I need to get a digital camera.

Even with a good to great tee shot, getting to the proper plateau or bowl is challenging, and when the greens are fast, which they often are, having to go from one level to another can be a frightening experience.  What makes the hole so neat, is that you generally know that when you tee off.  The first green is adjacent to the driveway as you come in.  Most first timers see the green, but don't fully understand the terror that awaits them.

Most of the time, when I have played the course, the greens have been firm and fast, which creates challenge and lots of sweat.

Tommy Naccarato,

If you can, I think we need to post all sixteen (16) pictures of the first hole in order to best convey its look, feel and play for all those who have never seen it.  Anything less might leave somethng out.
Thanks.


ed_getka

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A good begining and end
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2001, 04:44:00 PM »
Thanks Patrick and Gene for the details. What is the preferred landing area, the graves or the VW's? Seriously, how big is the realistic landing area and what club would you normally be approaching with? Obviously, wind will affect this, but I'm curious to know, in general, what kind of shot(s)is played into the green.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ForkaB

A good begining and end
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2001, 04:55:00 PM »
Interesting thread.  In searching my incredibly shrinking brain I managed to find a lot of candidates, namely:

Stanford
Muirfield
Carnoustie
Olympic (Lake)
Woods Hole
Lossiemouth
Birkdale
Western Gailes
Kingsbarns
Pacific Dunes

In terms of the "Why" question, most of these pairs seems to follow the theme of an attractive opener that leads one to think "birdie" but often leaads to bogey or worse and a hard but equally attractive finisher that can yield a birdie when you least expect it, but can also destroy the nerves of one who is just a few shots away from some sort of "result."

PS--Patrick, should I look at those photos of NGLA #1 before I play it (assuming that Dr. Naccarato can deliver) or should I trust my finely honed instincts and give into my lust for uncertainty?


TEPaul

A good begining and end
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2001, 05:46:00 PM »
Pat:

You describe #1 and #18 NGLA very well and I wouldn't have much to add.

The green on #1 is truly unique because it is quite small with the contours, bowls and ridges you mentioned. I would say that the hole is very much one of experience and feel particularly the approach, even with a wedge. Since the green is wholly blind from a conservative drive, feel and distance knowledge is paramount.

I would have to say that with speed on the greens #1 would be one of the easiest to 3 putt of almost any I know of. But in particularly medal and maybe match there is no reason at all to do more than 3 putt. Sometimes when you play courses like Pine Valley, maybe Merion, Oakmont and NGLA and some of the other speedy contoured old courses you just have to realize that a 3 putt may be acceptable and therefore to insure then that you don't do something worse. There is virtually no reason to do more than 3 putt anywhere if you understand the dangers and act accordingly--basically getting the ball to an area where you can clearly two putt.

The only other remark I would make about NGLA's #1 is the blind bunkering short and left which many people get into with good iron tee shots. If you play the hole conservatively you need to play well right into the fairway. The hole is set up very deceptively this way because the green is set up well to the left--a feature I really love because it tends to pull a player's aim at it even if they have an iron on the tee!


Adam_Messix

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A good begining and end
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2001, 05:48:00 PM »
Patrick--

National has a fantastic start and finish.  When I played National 3 weeks ago, we played the green tees and played 18 as a par 4 (as was suggested on this site in a U.S. Open type thread) and the hole was a brutal finisher.  

The reason I like 1 at NGLA is because it gives you so many choices to be a hero (or goat)or play more conservatively for a full shot.  The green is very 4 puttable which gives it the extra added dimension when trying to drive the green.  A tee shot 100 yards from the green in the fairway is often better than a drive 10 feet off the green on the wrong side of the knob.  

Other courses with great starts/finishes:

Oakmont
Winged Foot West
Shinnecock Hills
Pine Valley
Wade Hampton
Whitinsville (1 and 9)


Patrick_Mucci

A good begining and end
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2001, 06:22:00 PM »
Ed Getka,

The landing area is generous.

With a length of 327 downhill from the back tees, a tee shot of (flat) 180 to 200 will leave you with 130 to 100 into the green.  
A tee shot (flat) of 230 will leave you 80 yards away.

Most of the time after I've hit my driver, If I have to carry the bunker right, it's an L-Wedge.  If I'm left, I have to decide,
L-Wedge, Sand Wedge, Pitching Wedge, 9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2, or putter from 60 yards and in.  It is both fun and scarey !

Safe play is given a wide target, with a difficult second shot.

Rich Goodale,

No matter how poor or good the photos, you won't be disappointed when you play the real deal.  No photo can capture the real MAGIC and SPIRIT of the hole.  You must try to play it and let us know your thougths afterward.  The photos will only whet your appetite.


ForkaB

A good begining and end
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2001, 09:03:00 PM »
Patrick

God and Continental Airlines willing, I'll be there in 9 days and will let you know what I think.

Cheers


Patrick_Mucci

A good begining and end
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2001, 10:06:00 AM »
Rich Goodale,

You're in for a memorable treat.

When you play the course, after you've holed out, look at potential pin positions other than the ones you're playing.  The variety in the shots created by different pin locations is enormous, and the fun in figuring out which shot to play endless.

I won't be able to play for a few weeks as of this friday, but let me know what days you'll be there and maybe I'll take a ride out and join you for the day.

I could play #'s 6,8, and 18 for the rest of my life and never get bored.  I hope the pin on # 8 is far right, and the pin on # 18 all the way back.  The visuals are frightening.


Rob_Waldron

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A good begining and end
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2001, 11:14:00 AM »
Patrick

How about Philadelphia Cricket Club? I think #9 and #18 can compare to any course for best front and back nine finishing holes. #18 is one of the best finishing holes I have ever seen. A long par four over rquiring a drive over a hill with a downhill approach to a green guarded by water. Par generally wins this hole!


Patrick_Mucci

A good begining and end
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2001, 02:40:00 PM »
Rob,

Certainly strong holes, but I was referencing the starting and finishing holes.


ed_getka

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« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2001, 09:26:00 PM »
Patrick,
Thanks for the insights. You obviously know the course very well and have given the strategies a lot of thought. Perhaps some day you'll be able to show me around the course that many of you guys love so much.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Patrick_Mucci

A good begining and end
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2001, 04:11:00 AM »
Ed Getka,

How many participants do you think we'd get if GCA had a Day at NGLA ?


Paul Turner

A good begining and end
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2001, 04:56:00 AM »
My vote is for St Enodoc.

Fantastic 1-4 par 5,4,4,4 stretch with great variety:  The 1st is a rolling 520 yd par 5 through the dunes that has one of the most inspiring opening views in golf.  

The 2nd and 3rd are both about 430 yds but the 2nd plays up to a perched green whilst the 3rd plummets downhill.

The 4th (270yds) is one of the very best, cunning, short par 4s, with great use of OB for the drive.

The finish is even better:

The 16th is a beautiful rolling short par 5, through the dunes and along the sandy bay.

17th turns the screws at 210 yds to a green perched on a dune-one of the best short links holes.

And the final hole 450 yds is maybe the best links finishing hole.  The tee shot is down to the lumpiest fairway I've ever seen; the approach (usually with a weird stance) is up to an attractive green right under the clubhouse.  


Scott_Burroughs

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A good begining and end
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2001, 11:16:00 AM »
Patrick,
  A lot and if you're just waxing, please don't tease us.    I remember you mentioning a possible get-togehter at your GCGC.  Still thinking about it?