[Matt_Ward]

In our next issue of The Jersey Golfer / Fall Issue, we our doing a major story on the restoration effort underway at Plainfield CC. One of the sidebars of our major story will be listing the best putting surfaces in the Garden State.

The best defined as courses that present 18 uniquely designer and configured putting surfaces. The overall length and diffculty of the respective course is completely immaterial.

We will be listing the top ten private courses and top five in the public arena. We would like to list them in numerical order with the very best being list first and so forth.

Among the private contenders are fairly obvious candidates:

*Clearly Plainfield
Pine Valley
Somerset Hills
Baltusrol / Upper
Forsgate / Banks
Alpine
Hollywood
*Don't discount sleepers such as Oak Hill in Warren County!
*Crestmont!
*Essex County!
Others?

On the public side are such contenders as:

The Knoll
Ballyowen
Twisted Dune
Sea Oaks
Pine Hill
Blue Heron Pines / East
Royce Brook / West
Hominy Hill
Others???

The criteria is simple: design and variety. While overall conditioning is important it should not be of primary concern when deciding.

Our deadline is Wednesday of this week. Please feel free to respond to this thread and if you desire to be anonymous I can perfectly understand that. If you have any specific reasons why you made your selections please add under your respective selection.

Many thanks to all of you for your help ...

Matt Ward

[Chris_Hervochon]

In the private arena, I am all for Pine Valley, obviously, they have some unique greens and the variety is outstanding.  I would also like to nominate Tavistock CC.  Great greens, and some are a genuine terror.

Public Arena-
Not a big fan of Pine Hill's greens, they are all one in the same to me.
Sand Barrens has some AWESOME greens, all are varied with some really interesting slopes.  Greens there slope every which way, including front-to-back.  Also, most of the greens require you to work your approach shot in some way shape or form in order to get the ball near the whole.  Has anybody ever played there, and if so, did you ever notice the Biarritz green within a green on #4 West?
Same deal with Town and Country GL, even though the rest of the course isn't so great.
Laurel Creek has cool greens
Medford Village has nightmare greens.  As does, Olde York.

[NAF]

Matt,

After having played Plainfield a good 6 times and being a member of Alpine I would rate the  two putting surfaces as equal.  Both surfaces roll extemely fast and true and at stimp speeds of 9-12.  Alpine having smaller greens may make it a little easier to maintain.  Still they shave both courses greens so much the contours wreak havoc especially #12 at Plainfield...

I also think Hackensack and Montclair are candidates although Montclair greens were somewhat bumpy and very fast on some greens and slower on others during my quick visit.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

In the private category, I think you might want to consider Running Deer's very wild greens.

On the public side, I have two REAL dark horses for you to think about, both nine-holers..

Scotch Hills GC has an amazing set of sloping greens on a short (2500 yards) nine holer that require amazing care and attention.  The architect is unknown, having formerly been the home of Westfield CC, and then becoming the first African-American country club in the nation as Shady Hills CC.  If I had to venture a guess, I believe it was Willie Dunn, but that's pure speculation based on style.

Another modest nine-holer with some very cool greens is Blair Academy GC.  However, holes 7 & 8 appear to me to be not of the original design, and feature boring, flattish greens that detract considerably from a really fun course designed in 1925 by Duer Irving Sewall.

I concur with your other private picks, but would probably move Hollywood a bit higher.  Plainfield's and PV's speak for themselves.

On the public side, let me do a little more thinking, but I'd certainly disagree that Pine Hill's are in any way exciting and don't recall Sea Oaks or Ballyowen's being particularly unique or noteworthy, either.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Thought of a couple of others to consider, Matt...

I'm not sure if it's public or private right now, but Hawk Pointe GC has some downright ballsy and creative greens. (Kelly Blake Moran)

Medford Village has been mentioned, and count me in the group that really enjoys the course as well as the challenging greens. (William & David Gordon - perhaps their best)

On the public side, Jumping Brook in Neptune features some very interesting greens (Willard Wilkinson, with a recent restoration by Ian Scott-Taylor that I haven't seen yet).

Falling into the category of very controversial greens that one might either consider fabulous or abominations depending on viewpoint and fairness considerations are the following...

High Point (Gerald Roby)
New Jersey National (Roy Case)
Sunset Valley (Hal Purdy)

[Matt_Ward]

Many thanks Mike.

I need to know if there are anyother courses in the immediate South Jersey area that would qualify???

If any Phillie regulars can pipe in that would be great.

Your mentioning of Sunset Valley is very good -- don't know if you have had the opportunity to see Cornish's design at Bowling Green?

Mike -- how do you think Archie's greens at Twisted Dunes stack up on the public side? I only listed Pine Hill because we listed it previously as the top public course in the state (I know you disagree!). I personally don't see the greens st Pine Hill as being among the top five public in NJ. I'm open for persuasion if someone can make the case.

The feedback I've received back, not including GCA has the following courses in a tentative order as:

Private:

Pine Valley
Plainfield
Somerset Hills
Hollywood
Alpine
Forsgate / Banks
Baltusrol / Upper
Oak Hill
Medford Village
Running Deer is a sleeper choice thus far
From the controversy side is Montclair, Crestmont and Metedeconk National
*a variety of others get scattered support

Public:

The Knoll
Ballyowen
Crystal Springs
NJ National
Hawk Pointe
Hominy Hill
*Sunset Valley is a bit harsh on a few holes but again that's just one perspective.

Need as much feedback as possible ...

Many thanks again to all.

mw

[BCrosby]

Matt -

Does the Jersey Golfer have a web site that gives access to articles?

I would love to see the piece on the Plainfield restoration.  It may help us with restoration efforts at the Athens CC (GA).  

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

Yes, I've played Bowling Green and consider it a very fine course and my favorite of Cornish's I've played.  I just don't recall the greens being particularly unique in any regard.  I'd say that most of the positive attributes of that course are due to other factors.

As far as Twisted Dune, I think the greens are quite good, although once again perhaps not the standout attribute on this superb course.  I also would like to check them out this time next year to see how they've matured.  They are certainly thoughtfully designed and well-detailed.

[JLahrman]

BCrosby,

If you would like to find out more about the Plainfield restoration, e-mail me at jlovito@nb.com or call me at 212-476-5838.

Regards,  
John

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I just re-read your criteria for the sidebar story, and at the risk of you thinking I'm insane, I'd like to reiterate my strong support for the nine-holer Scotch Hills.

Have you ever seen those greens??  This is probably a good time of year to view them at their deadliest.

[JamieS]

Matt,

You certainly have mentioned some "givens" above...how about...

For the public side, I would think Twisted Dune would have to be considered. I have played there twice in the last three weeks. The second visit I found the greens even better than the first. They were a bit firmer, quicker and in excellent condition. I think the supt. is starting to get the course to play the way it was intended. The greens have a great mix of slope, contour and design features.

For the private side, you should look at Laurel Creek CC. They are usually in oustanding condition, and have some of the most interesting design and contouring in the S. Jersey/ Phila. area.

[Chris_O]

Would be very interested in hearing more on the controversy of Montclair's greens. In NJ, I have played Pine Valley, NJ National, Hominy Hills, Ballyowen, Cherry Valley, Canoebrook, Essex County and Montclair. I have heard the argument that Montclair's greens are cut too low given the severity of the undulation...that Donald Ross never meant for them to be that fast. Is that the gripe? Basically, when I think of Montclair, I think of spectacular, punitive greens...sort of a Winged Foot minus the length (vs. West) and the work-of-art bunkering (both East and West). If your results show NJ to have 10 courses with better greens than Montclair, I will be amazed/impressed/beyond eager to play those tracks.

[Matt_Ward]

BCrosby:

The issue with the Plainfield story will be out by the end of the month. You can e-mail me your home address and I can forward a complete copy.

My e-mail is mattwardgolf@hotmail.com

Chris O:

Don't doubt that Montclair greens can be, should I say, always interesting! The top ten on the private side is extremely competitive. Can't say Montclair is in or out right now. More feedback is appreciated.

JamieS:

Laurel Creek is a good choice but from the times I played the course I thought many of the greens were rather tame and somewhat flattish. Still worth a serious look.

Gentleman:  The public side of the ledger needs whatever input people can provide. Besides, Twisted Dune, are there any public courses in the greater AC area that really have dynamic putting greens???

Mike Cirba:

Have not ruled out seriously looking at Scotch Plains. Should see them in the next few days.

Thanks to all and anyone else please respond.

Regards,

mw

[Greg Stebbins]

The only course that I feel deserves mention that hasn't already is Mountain Ridge CC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris O,

You should have seen Montclairs greens before some of  them were changed.

1st nine
#1,4,5,8
2nd nine
#2,3,4,
3rd nine
#6
4th nine
none

[Joe Zaepfel]

Matt Ward, What is your impression of Galloway's greens?

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

From the six times I've played Galloway National I found the greens to be a challenge, but not in the same league as many of the heavyweights already mentioned (i.e. PV, Plainfield, Somerset Hills, Alpine, etc, etc.).

I believe a case could be made that the greens at Marriott Seaview / Bay are much better. They are small and they are pitched in a delightful of ways. The course is not that demanding except when the wind blows off the bay. In fact, I think the greens aon the Bay are much more unique than those on the more demanding Pines Course.

Ditto the quality of the greens at Atlantic City CC -- well done restoration effort by Tom Doak. Greens are a fine mixture.

From what this thread has stated and from what people have sent to me it appears that many of the modern courses that have appeared on the Jersey golf scene have pro forma greens which might feature tongues or some other area that is defended in some way.

But, you don't get the kind of varying contours, sections and different shapes you often find at many of the older courses.

Take for example, the Donald Ross designed Crestmont in West Orange. The course from a tee-to-green perspective is good but the greens are artfully done. In fact, the par-3 11th might truly be one of the most demanding greens in the state.

There are plenty of other such courses in the immediate North Jersey area. Mountain Ridge is also good, but I don't believe it's in the same category of Essex County, Montclair, Crestmont, Essex Fells, to name just a few. Even the greens at Green Brook aren't bad from a design perspective.

Again, if anyone has any recommendations please feel free to send. Wednesday is the deadline and all suggestions are certainly appreciated.

Regards,

mw

[Corey_Johnson]

How about the White/Blue course at Flanders. There are some pretty interesting pin positions on the Blue side(especially #17)
Also just played the Knoll West for the first time in years and could not believe (or didnt remember) the amount of contouring in those greens. I would think that would have to rate pretty high on the public side.  

[Matt_Ward]

Corey:

No doubt about The Knoll's quality greens.

Thanks for mentioning Flanders ... although there has been plenty of feedback about Sunset Valley -- another Morris County Parks layout.

Regards,

[Craig_Rokke]

Matt-
Have you played Bedens Brook? I played there in July, and found the greens to be in excellent shape, and pretty nicely contoured.

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

Thanks for the heads-up about Bedens Brooks. I've played it about a dozen times over the years -- the greens are good but borderline among when pitted against the best in the state.

Have you ever played at Oak Hill -- private club in Warren County? Really interesting and slick greens -- course is so-so but the greens are special.

Any other comments are most welcomed.

Thanks ...

[William Flynn]

What about my greens at Woodcrest CC in Cherry Hill, NJ.  I hear they are the best conditioned in the NJ/Philly area.  For some reason my work is often overlooked.  Go see for yourself, you will not be disappointed.

[Matt_Ward]

William Flynn:

The focus of the story is on the best putting surfaces -- not just reliance on which ones are th ebest conditioned solely.

Courses that have putting surfaces which are uniquely contoured, configured and challenging throughout 18 holes is what I'm searching for. Conditining has a role but it's not the primary attribute.

FYI -- I have played Woodcrest a few years ago when Dick Smith was the pro -- wonderful course but keep in mind that the Garden State is literally a "garden" of superior courses from one end to the other.

I'll keep your suggestion in mind. Thanks Mr. Flynn (or whoever you are!).

Regards,

[ct]

matt the quality of the conditioning at montclair coupled with the courses history make it an obvious choice.  donald ross was renowned for "mailing in" many of his courses but montclair, along with plainfield and pinehurst, are classic ross courses.

[mossboss]

Montclair Greens are superbly conditioned, and the 27 Ross efforts on nines 1, 2, & 3 are exceptional examples of the masters best.  The annual "Ghoulish Golf" event features precarious placements on arguably the toughest contours in the State.  As a frequent visitor to Pine Valley, I can confidently assert that MGC belongs in the same bracket, certainly ahead of Essex County and Crestmont.

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