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Dan Kelly

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Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« on: October 24, 2001, 09:05:00 AM »
You have your Redans and your Capes and your Alpses and your Biarritzes and your Shorts and your Edens and ... some other hole "types" I'm probably forgetting -- all of which are based on models that are ... what? A century old, and older?

My question: Has there been ANY prototype hole created in our lifetimes? Is such a creation still possible? Or have all the good cookies been baked?

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

CHrisB

Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2001, 09:30:00 AM »
I would think that holes with island greens represent a more modern prototype (not the best cookie in the batch, for sure).

Josh_Taylor

Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2001, 09:40:00 AM »
Has the last great song been written?  Has the last great painting been painted?

NO


Mike_Cirba

Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2001, 10:00:00 AM »
Dan Kelly,

Unqualified YES to your questions!

I've seen Redans by Stephen Kay & Clyde Johnston built in recent years in NJ and SC.  A beautiful reverse-redan by our own Jeff Brauer.

I've seen a Biarritz green by Bobby Weed in PA.

Rees Jones loves to build cape holes.

Keith Foster has an alps hole at Texas Star near Dallas.  

Isn't Dye's island green simply a very penal take on the "Short"?

Tom Doak has an Eden in MD, Steve Smyers in NJ has one, and I've probably seen more of them in recent years than I can cite.

The news is quite good out there, despite sometimes overwhleming evidence to the contrary.


Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2001, 11:19:00 AM »
Mike Cirba --

You misunderstood my question. Maybe I didn't phrase it well. I'll try again.

For the past hundred years (more or less), golf course architects have been copying, amending and adapting a bunch of classic prototype holes and hole types: Redans, Alpses, Biarritzes, Capes, Shorts, Edens, etc.

My question was: Has anyone in our lifetimes designed a NEW type of hole that will serve as a prototype -- to be copied, amended and adapted a hundred years from now?

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike_Cirba

Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2001, 11:29:00 AM »
Dan,

Oops.  

Good question.  Would an architect repeating himself on course after course count?  


Ed_Baker

Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2001, 11:38:00 AM »
Dan,

I think the next "cookie" will be determined by the club/ball/technology/distance issues.

Possibly a "backstop hole" on a 302 yard par 3 with the fairway and collection areas BEYOND the green,a forced carry over water of 265 with a waste area from there to the green surround! Sound silly? Maybe not.


Steve S.

Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2001, 01:35:00 PM »
Dan,

  I think that some day some young and adventurous architect may come along and have just what you are asking for.  As for now, I don't think that such a hole has been created in what you refer to as our lifetime.  I feel that the majorioty of the great holes today are in fact done in the shadows of the great holes of our past.  The Redans, Capes, Edens, and so many more are in fact near exact replicas of some of the greatest holes in the golfing world.  So as for now, we have no one who has to of yet come up with a hole that will stand out as a prodigy for our era.  But, I think that it will happen.  Give it time.


Steve S.

Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2001, 01:35:00 PM »
Dan,

  I think that some day some young and adventurous architect may come along and have just what you are asking for.  As for now, I don't think that such a hole has been created in what you refer to as our lifetime.  I feel that the majorioty of the great holes today are in fact done in the shadows of the great holes of our past.  The Redans, Capes, Edens, and so many more are in fact near exact replicas of some of the greatest holes in the golfing world.  So as for now, we have no one who has to of yet come up with a hole that will stand out as a prodigy for our era.  But, I think that it will happen.  Give it time.


Steve S.

Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2001, 01:35:00 PM »
Dan,

  I think that some day some young and adventurous architect may come along and have just what you are asking for.  As for now, I don't think that such a hole has been created in what you refer to as our lifetime.  I feel that the majorioty of the great holes today are in fact done in the shadows of the great holes of our past.  The Redans, Capes, Edens, and so many more are in fact near exact replicas of some of the greatest holes in the golfing world.  So as for now, we have no one who has to of yet come up with a hole that will stand out as a prodigy for our era.  But, I think that it will happen.  Give it time.


Steve S.

Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2001, 01:35:00 PM »
Dan,

  I think that some day some young and adventurous architect may come along and have just what you are asking for.  As for now, I don't think that such a hole has been created in what you refer to as our lifetime.  I feel that the majorioty of the great holes today are in fact done in the shadows of the great holes of our past.  The Redans, Capes, Edens, and so many more are in fact near exact replicas of some of the greatest holes in the golfing world.  So as for now, we have no one who has to of yet come up with a hole that will stand out as a prodigy for our era.  But, I think that it will happen.  Give it time.


Chris Andrews

Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2001, 03:27:00 PM »
I'm normally just a lurker but.......

What's with copying holes anyway?  I have never understood that concept.  Forcing someone elses design ideas onto a differing piece of land.

Shouldn't architects who get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars be creative/immaginative/smart enough to come up with their own unique holes that blend naturally into the surroundings and also play strategically?  Or is that asking too much?  I guess thats why there isnt too many great modern designs/designers.  

Copying is much easier I guess, but boring.


Chris Andrews

Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2001, 03:30:00 PM »
Told you im normally a lurker, dunno what im doing.....I sent that before I finished.

I was going to add that when I was at school, if I got caught copying I was sent to the principals office and made to redo the work after school!!!!!


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2001, 04:35:00 PM »
Chris -

I'm probably the last person that should be answering this, given that I've played few holes that were "copied" from other holes. Nevertheless, I'll give it a stab...

There are really only a finite number of permutations of holes, given all the contraints - e.g. straight, dogleg right, left, etc. If you read enough threads on this board, you'll see that virtually every hole discussed has analogous holes from courses built many years before, regardless of whether or not the architect knew of the predating hole. This also explains partly why one doesn't come across many, if any, "new" concept holes built recently. Just look at the person above who classified the modern island green as simply another Short Hole, albeit a more penal one.

Additionally, when architects build these "copies," they are generally not copying the hole so much as the concept of the hole - ie. how bunkers, angles, etc. influence play. What makes the copies interesting is that they frequently have variations, especially if the architect has been careful to preserve the minute differences that nature gives them. The poor copies tend to force holes on terrain that isn't well suited, or simply bulldoze over natural features that could have given the hole something unique when compared & contrasted with the original.

If you read some of the threads of the famous named holes, I'm sure you'll see that the differences, even if they are minute, give rise to some pretty interesting(& sometimes even heated) discussions.

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Holes Worth Copying: An idea whose time has passed?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2001, 05:13:00 PM »
Chris Andrews:

I don't mind SOME "copy".

I don't find such holes necessarily boring.

The basic concepts of classic holes have proven themselves over time.

Can you give us some examples of "copies" you have found boring?

Do you find too many Redans out there? Too many Cape holes?

Do you just not want to play such holes?

Or do you find some examples poorly done compared to the originals?

Tim Weiman