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RJ_Daley

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Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #100 on: October 26, 2001, 08:19:00 PM »
still thinking... I think a good example is Rees Jones "open DR. work at Torrey Pines that is now on-going.  It is brilliant business practice on his part.  He can offer his "design fee" as free, yet the PGA or USGA extends a grant for millions to pay the construction company and other subs and undoubtedly in the budget is the project associate archie salary in the Rees Jones organization.  So, Jones is able to secure a full employment act for all his associates and favored construction subs, he gets the name recgonition and bolsters his reputation to get a leg up on his peers over real competition for other high profile projects, and may be compelled to homogenize a classic course in the meantime.

In fairness, I think the remodel of Torrey Pines may be a great thing, no matter who is doing it.  From what I saw in July, it looks like it will only improve the golf course design.  But, there are so many other archies that need the work and should be able to compete for an honest fee on a level playing field rather than get aced out by a freebee that isn't really free, and may be more expensive in the long run when done by the big concept, big time archie firm entity.  It isn't an armslength relationship between the USGA or PGA granting source and their fair haired "open Dr.".  Just my opinon, I may be on several peoples hit list...  

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Patrick_Mucci

Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #101 on: October 26, 2001, 07:19:00 PM »
Who or what is this sinister force that makes these great clubs select Fazio and Rees to do work in preparation for the
USGA OPEN or PGA ?????

Mike_Cirba

Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #102 on: October 26, 2001, 07:59:00 PM »
Patrick,

That mysterious force you ask about is known by many names...branding, celebrity, star-power, status, market recognition, ego, and is the same reason that Michael Jackson's album will be number one the first week on the charts even though he hasn't done anything of worth in many years.  

People want to be associated with a "name", and those seeking advice and counsel for their golf courses are no less impressed by star status than the rest of us.


RJ_Daley

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Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #103 on: October 27, 2001, 08:38:00 AM »
Patrick, it may be the same force that will assure a "specific" membership at Trump's new course he is having built by that Jimmy Fazio character, the one with the 90ft waterfall onto the edge of the 18th green, where I wouldn't stand a chance of playing, or becoming a member even if I did win the lottery (not that I'd want to).  The force that causes him to select Jimmy.  The force that causes many of the biggest corporations in America to select from the same old pool of regular suspects to serve on their boards ad pick up all that director money and stock options; you know those guys that are finally washed up and played out their string in the political arena.  The same force that has many of those same old characters that are the secretive members of ANGC and select that Jimmy fellow to do their remodelling too, at what ever the cost (not that money is wrecking design - or design opportunities).  That force that don't like to give a sucker no-name hard worker talented guy an even break cause he ain't been runnin with the right dogs...

Just my opinion, I may be Hootie...

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Peter Galea

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Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #104 on: October 26, 2001, 09:03:00 PM »
That sinister force was actually started by the NFL, when they hired "the Michaelangelo of Grass", George Toma, to prep fields for 35 Superbowls. No one can grow grass like Mr. Toma, even if it's astroturf. Now if he can just be convinced to do golf, it'll get Tom and Rees off the hook.
"chief sherpa"

Patrick_Mucci

Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #105 on: October 27, 2001, 03:42:00 AM »
Mike Cirba,

Now we're not talking about "Johnny come lately" clubs  We're talking about golf clubs with good to great courses, clubs steeped in the history and tradition of the game.

How did Rees get to be a celebrity ?

How was his work received at
The Country Club
Hazeltime
Congressional
Baltusrol

Surely, he had to produce good results in order to get additional jobs.

Bad news travels fast, and I would imagine, if the club and USGA/PGA didn't like the results, word would have spread and he wouldn't continue to be awarded projects.

Rees has a proven track record of successful
pre-tournament projects.  Aren't good results the real driving force behind causing his celebrity, his star power ?
Unlike Michael Jackson, Rees continues to produce good work.
 
RJ,

The globalization and super competitive world of business doesn't permit corporations the luxury of keeping
"dead wood" on their boards.  Those days are long gone.

And certainly, you don't mean to imply that the Membership's of Winged Foot, Shinnecock,
Baltusrol, The Country Club, Merion and others are the same as the membership's at Trump's new courses.  Old courses that have a long history of hosting Major Championships, clubs intimately connected to the history and traditions of the game.  Courses run by their long standing membership's, not one controlling member.

As a member of a club, holding a position of responsibility, with the membership looking over your shoulder and breathing down your neck, for a project that will be viewed by the world, do you go with an unknown, as you suggest, or a proven name ?


Mike_Cirba

Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #106 on: October 27, 2001, 05:53:00 AM »
Patrick,

I have no quarrel with the fact that Rees Jones restoration work has been well-received by most people.  I'm not sure the same can be said of Tom Fazio's however.

My Michael Jackson analogy might have been off-base, but the point is simply that a big name is always in demand and for purposes of this discussion, always an easier "sell" to memberships of any club.  

Which begs the question of how Keith Foster and Mark Mungeam have become the most recent Open Doctors.  It seems that most have been quite pleased with their work as well, irrespective of their relative anonyminity.


TEPaul

Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #107 on: October 27, 2001, 07:01:00 PM »
I think the architectural point is being missed here because somebody always seems to be looking for someone to blame for something they don't agree with architecturally.

Pat says: "How could Rees Jones keep getting jobs or even become famous if he did poor jobs restoring U.S. Open sites and so forth?" I suppose the same could be said for Tom Fazio and certainly for Robert Trent Jones.

The point isn't really if they did poor quaility work or not but that they did redesign work on various classic courses that were holding U.S. Opens that some believe was not the right kind of design work (redesign work) for those kinds of courses. It should be recognized that the idea to do this kind of redesign may not have exactly been their ideas. Jeff Mingay did an excellent piece on this process using one of the first examples (Oakland Hills) as the example.

Some say the original idea to shrink fairways down, with flanking bunkers combined with high rough was the idea of none other than Joe Dey! It clearly may have been what the USGA wanted back then and many other courses followed that lead, and to a large degree have continued to do so. Clearly, clearly things like rough narrowing down the fairways at ANGC is not the way the golf course was designed to be. Half the strategy of the golf course was the wide fairways. Anyone who denies that simply doesn't understand the "design intent" of ANGC. So whether it was Hootie or some committee or even Tom Fazio who recommended that rough should be created and the fairways should be substantially narrowed has done something to the golf course and its architecture that should not be done. Maybe most people don't see it and don't understand what the "design intent" of ANGC is all about but the fact that many people don't understand and endorse it does not make it right and does not make those things good architectural changes.

Many many golfers continue to believe this is the way golf courses should be, even the classic ones, when it has been clearly shown that this really is not so.

So obviously Rees and Tom and RTJ are not going to be blamed for doing poor work. They were doing what they were asked to do and maybe they were even recommending it. It really doesn't matter who initiated it and kept the philosophy going for so many years. All that really matters is architecturally this was not the way these courses were supposed to be and it seems today that more and more people are coming to realize that!


Patrick_Mucci

Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #108 on: October 28, 2001, 07:40:00 AM »
TEPaul,

I blame the clubs themselves.

They have permited alterations to their great golf courses, and perhaps instigated and encouraged change.

I continue to feel that clubs that undergo any type of architectual work on their course have an obligation to question, to grill in depth, the architect with respect to departures from the design principles of the original or recognized architect, and to ask for detailed explanations for any proposed changes.  Conversely, the architect should undertake the same process, questioning the membership with respect to why they want the changes, why they want to deviate from the design integrity of the course, and what they  hope to accomplish.

Part of the problem is, factions within the  membership that cultivate change and modernization, to use a catch all term.

While the architect may be the instrument of change, the membership is usually the genesis and supporter of change.

Forty years ago, patients didn't question doctors.  Today, patients want to be informed.  The same relationship should exist between clubs and their architects, everyone benefits in the long run.

But, that's just my opinion.


Devil's Advocate

Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #109 on: October 28, 2001, 07:51:00 AM »
Augusta National is a dinosaur.  Leave it as ot once was, put it in a museum, and let the members only play it.  We can then all be happy.  It however continues to be the focal point of American Golf with The Masters Tournament still being played there.  It was never designed to accomodate today's athletes, Tilesist ProV1 golf balls, composite club materials and the like which makes the course and many "classic" courses like it obsolete.  If you and everyone else are happy with 27 under par winning the Masters then so be it.  The course as it once stood would and NEVER will be a great test of professional golf in the decade of 2000.  Take away the cruel greenspeeds and you have absoulutely NOTHING.  27 under par is obviously UNACCEPTABLE to the powers that be.  If you are not going to change the dynamics of equipment or the player today, then something MUST be done to the course, right or wrong.  Narrowing the fairways, and adding the rough, seems a better alternative to SIMPLY lengthening the course (which unfortunately also MUST be done to accomodate championship play).  Like it or not, it's a fact.  Otherwise relegate Augusta National to the museum where it belongs.  

Tim_Weiman

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Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #110 on: October 28, 2001, 08:22:00 AM »
Devil's Advocate:

The lengthening of Augusta National is part of the senseless golf technology arms race.

We build longer courses only to face still longer, more expensive balls/equipment and the need to repeat the cycle all over again.

Ideally, the Augusta National would take a more enlightened position and introduce a competition ball as a more efficient, less expensive way to challenge the modern professional.

Unfortunately, they have fallen victim to the "group think " mentality of the golf industry and the fetish for length.

That's the length issue.

I'm curious, however, about your comments on fairway width and rough.

Why is it necessary to reduce fairway width and add rough rather than simply add length?

Tim Weiman

Tommy_Naccarato

Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #111 on: October 28, 2001, 01:34:00 PM »
Control and containment is exactly the reason. More precisely, Golf Architects thinking that they are smarter then nature. (I fully expect Jeff Brauer to come after me on this one )

We all know that too many "Classics" have added all they can. It is now time to add more acreage on new courses. (This is the thinking.) and while you will get the majority of GCA's wanting to do somethign about it. They need to take a stand and decide exactly what they want to do.

Look at the mentality of people who are developing golf courses nowadays. They want their courses at 7400+ yards "Championship" length with a par of 72, at all costs. In fact they demend it.

Meanwhile, we have a very astute group of designers that don't care about any of that as much as they care about finding the best routing that offers challenging shotmaking as well as deceptive bunkering and shaping. They don't mind building their courses at 6800 +/- yards because they know that par is just a number. Now I'mnot trying to say that these guys wouldn't allow for adding length. I'm sure that is at the top of their minds, but ultimately the finished product is just that.

I hate seeing ANGC's name being brought into this because it gives creedence to what they are doing, which is to inspire the ill-informed* (*What a second! According to Joe Logan I'm supposedly one of them!) what golf courses are supposed to look like. Is it any wonder they chose King Fazio to lead them to the promised land? If I wanted a golf course to be the most beautiful/playable park, I would too. But isn't their yearly lovefest in the spring meant to be a friendly invitational that could be shelved anytime that it threatened the sanctity of the club?

To me, and pardon me for being so blunt, ANGC is nothing more then a rotting smelly corpse of something that was once great. For those of you out there that need that ritual, as well as the maintenance practice to play the game as well as dictate the rest of it for everybody--you haven't a clue.


Jeff_Brauer

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Does Money and Technology Hurt Golf Architecture?
« Reply #112 on: October 28, 2001, 03:28:00 PM »
Tommy,

Me, come down on my good buddy?  

Actually, I understand your point of view fully, but view it in shades of gray, not your full speed charge ahead black and white!  But, just as in my post on routings above, practical considerations can intrude.

I usually favor using a "2 foot bump" if I can, but will ignore it if it CAN be rebuilt.  What would cause this decision?

Usually, if it means a green and tee are just too close together to be safe. Move the next tee, you say?  What if it already on a property line?  Ignore "published safety standards" by Urban Land Institute?  My errors and omissions insurance already costs in excess of $10,000 annually, and I've never cost the insurance company a dime!  I think I'll move the green off the natural feature, save a life, and keep my premiums low, thank you.

What if using that feature means shortening the hole a bit, and as it happens, the previous and next hole are of similar length and shot value?  Three consecutive similar holes, or rebuild the 2 foot bump 30 yards down the fairway, in all of ten minutes work with a bulldozer?  What about adding a few "sibling" 2 foot mounds, so that instead of it being a matter of chance on hitting that small feature, where a golfer may take that chance (like chipping out from behind one tree or one hundred, which kind of makes you play sideways) that perhaps any golfer hitting the right third of the fairway is treated equally, and/or the more consistent penalty really makes him think about playing that side, i.e. introducing strategy?

Lastly, most of us do, as you say, think we either know more than nature, or at least love to tinker with it.  What if I use that 2 foot mound, but it really needs to be 3 feet high to be visible to the golfer (so he/she can appreciate it), perform its intended function of deflection (in or out from the green) or softened up "just a tad" for efficient, non scalped mowing? (If you can run over it with a box blade, the superintendent can mow it with a mower) Leave it as is to be a purist, or "tweak it" so it really, really, works as you (and the superintendent) want it?

You, Tom Doak, me, Tom Fazio, would all make different decisions on what to do with that 2 foot bump, wouldn't we?  That's all part of the fun!

BTW, I have no problem with Fazio charging whatever he wants, and the corollary (or, as worked up as you can get about things, the coronary question  , is why do you?  Of course, if a club wants to hire Fazio, I have about as much chance as getting the work as you do, so it doesn't ruffle my feathers too badly.  Also, ASGCA would have no official position of fees, as that may be considered price fixing.  We do have an by law ban on criticizing other members, at least in the facet of using it to get work.


But the real reason we don't criticize like outside agents, like yourselves, is that more often than not, we know (or know we don't know) the types of enviro., budget, owner, or site problems the architect was likely to face, and know how much those things can affect the outcome.

Jeff

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach