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TEPaul

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2001, 05:22:00 AM »
A bit more needs to be said about the green itself on the Alps hole. It is highly unusual! Just about as wide as you'll ever find and when the greens are quick you have a chance of two putting if you happen to be in the right section but if you're not the chances of two putting aren't real good--very bad, in fact. There are some amazing pin positions on that hole like back right (very difficult to get an approach shot over there) and another good one is all the way in the back midway from side to side! If you get into the fringe below that rear bank it's real hard to get up and down. The left pin is the easiest to manage and the first time I played that hole in the Singles I birdied it with the pin over there. I thought then that this hole may look scary but it really isn't that bad. I've played it many more times since and I sure as hell don't think that anymore!!

THuckaby2

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2001, 05:26:00 AM »
Muchas gracias, Tomas Paul.  I was getting tired and did indeed give that green short shrift.  You explained it perfectly... The pin we got was middle back and even in the slow conditions we had, there was a VERY severe right-to-left break on the putt I had from the very front, and then some interesting more subtle break right near the hole.  In normal fast conditions, it must be something to see.

And doesn't this just add to the genius?  There are no gifts on the Alps.  Just ask Hannibal.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

TH


TEPaul

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2001, 05:34:00 AM »
Actually after struggling with the Alps hole a few more times I recommended to George Bahto that maybe that cross bunker on the downslope before the green should come out, that it's just one additional difficulty that may be too much. George has hardly spoken to me since and I definitely won't make anymore suggestions about anything at NGLA--if it was OK with C.B. it's OK with me! Except for maybe restoring a couple of C.B's original tee positions--they don't have to use them much but at least they would be there! Who really cares if a couple of players get killed by balls flying down #7 fairway on the way to #12 green--a couple of dead bodies isn't too much of a price to pay for original restoration!

Did any of you Californians happen to notice the dings and chips off the MacDonald gate? That was C.B. on his way out! He misjudged his wine more than a few times!


Mike_Cirba

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2001, 05:39:00 AM »
Tom Huckaby,

In your justifiably beaming excitment, you blew right past what might be the ultimate short par four, the 1st at NGLA.

Any thoughts on that green!?  


THuckaby2

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2001, 05:40:00 AM »
TEPaul:

YAHOO!  We had a while to stand on 17 green and 18 tee and I gazed at the gate for a long time... and I sure as heck did notice the relative "battered" condition, and I just chalked it up to age... that is hilarious to hear!

As for the bunker fronting the green on the Alps, jeez am I not one to mess with CBMac, who I've called a genius about 100 times now.  To me, it is the final touch - once again, it gives a way to ensure that the long hitters don't have ALL the advantages.

What a great match-play hole, btw...

TH


THuckaby2

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2001, 05:46:00 AM »
Mike:

Aw hell, this wasn't intended to be a hole by hole account and I feel bad enough about hijacking your thread as it is!

But since you asked...

That green is among the greatest I have ever seen.  It was two-puttable our day, but only because of the slow conditions.  You wanna talk internal contour?  Pardon my French but Holy Shit!

More important to me though, is how overall PERFECT #1 is as an opener to that course.  You are slapped in the face right on the first tee that hey, this is indeed not your normal cup of tea.  Conversely though, it's as much of a "handshake" as one needs - hell it is a drive and a pitch, and strong players can reach it - but miss in the wrong place and you are indeed punished.  To me, that is EXACTLY as it should be for this course - it introduces you with a forearm shiver that you better have your thinking cap on today, friend.

Then you get to the green and what more can be said?  Get your imagination in gear, boy, or it's gonna be a long putting day.  Given how short the hole is also, it's hard to even call it "unfair" - one ought to get a pitch in the right place, and if you do, you can get a flat putt.  But miss in the wrong place and well....

TH


Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2001, 10:02:00 AM »
Mike,

A really good "modern" example I've seen is the 9th at Plum Creek Golf Club in Castle Rock, Colo (Pete Dye), which is very much like the hole you describe. It's 300-320 with the tee shot to a valley then very uphill the last 50 yards to a tiny green with a hillside bunker on the right and a steep hill on the left. I haven't played the hole too many times but every time I do it creates serious options--(1) whale away and try to get as close as you can, leaving a blind half-shot to the small green that doesn't hold very well and if missed presents very difficult recovery chances or (2) mid iron to 100 yards and an uphill second to the small skyline green. Really a sublime and fun golf hole, one you'd never tire of playing.

BTW this course was designed by Pete Dye as a TPC course and hosted a Senior Tour event for a couple of years in the 80s before the club went bust. I recall the Senior guys were confused by #9 as well. It's Pete at his railroad tie worst in many places, but in others like #9 it's vintage Pete making you think your way around.

Doug
 

Twitter: @Deneuchre

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2001, 10:22:00 AM »
I can't believe I've scrolled through this whole thread and no one has mentioned No. 3 at ANGC.  A great, great short par 4.  About 320 yards.  Route from the tee depends on pin location.  Big MacK bunker left center of landing area, green sloping right to left with nasty ridge on left edge of green.

It's never on TV, though that may change next spring.  For years I have spent a lot of my time at no. 3 during the Masters. You see a lot of golf there.  

By far the shortest par 4 at ANGC yet it has the highest average score against par of any hole on the course except no. 5.  

A simple, wonderful hole.  Only a genius like MacK could have found it.


Greg Stebbins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2001, 12:47:00 PM »
Its good to see a special hole like the Five and Dime mentioned here!  

Having played the hole countless times, I can never underestimate how important the placement of the tee shot is in relation to the hole location.

I'll hit anywhere from a 2 to 5iron off the tee depending on wind and hole location (I never try to drive the green).

If the hole is on the front portion of the green, a drive on the right side of the fairway will make the green slopes act like a backstop.  One must be sure not to drive it too close to the green at the same time as it is difficut to stop the ball with a less than full wedge going directly uphill.  If the pin is up front and your ball is above the hole, you will be looking at a downhill putt with at least 5 feet of break.

If the pin is back, you will want to drive it on the left side so that you can run the ball to the back portion.  If the pin is back, the pin almost looks like it doesn't belong on the green from the right side of the fairway.

In this instance it is wise to play a 3/4 wedge in since hitting the ball over the green will bring the "dime" of five and dime into the picture.

Is there a smaller (or narrower) green out there?  I think it is around 1600 sq. ft.


Patrick_Mucci

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2001, 03:12:00 PM »
Matt Ward,

Not to be a doubting Thomas, but I find it incredible that anyone could drive the 6th green from the BACK tees.

At close to 300 yards uphill to a highly elevated green would require a CARRY well in excess of 300 yards.

TEPaul,

Some deranged moron, I mean a lunatic of the highest order has been posting under your name.  I knew it couldn't have been you, because this depraved individual suggested removing the cross coffin bunker short and to the right side of the 3rd hole at NGLA.

Please trace this dolt's IP, and have him banned from this site and golf in general.

Thank god I saw through this charlatan, and knew it just couldn't be you.


Mike_Cirba

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2001, 05:29:00 PM »
Patrick,

I'm confused as to the back tee on "Five and Dime".  Card yardage from the back tees is 289 yards.  Did I miss something?  

Greg Stebbins...how far is it from the very tips and were new tees built since the cards were printed?

And Greg...glad you enjoyed the post.  The hole is quite unique and although some really excellent short par fours have been mentioned by others here, I've never seen one quite like it, probably due to the incredibly small, narrow green you mentioned, as well as the severity of the penalty for missing it.  Talk about exacting!!


BillV

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2001, 01:25:00 AM »
Not even clost to a short hole (I once hit 7-iron in), one last point on Alps.  The greatest par 4 around, don't even begin to mention 8 Pebble, fellows, puhleeeze. Ran, we should have a separate link on the left side there <------ so we can discuss National on a separate board, hole by hole replete with pictures, a 20th thread to discuss routingand of course a 19th to discuss lunch and libations.  

Talk to the caddies sometimes at NGLA and if you ever play when it's crowded and you actually have someone behind you, watch the group behind.....  Balls sometimes bounce over the bunker short of the green.  It's a really cool aspect of randomness on a very calculated sublime golf hole.

George Bahto, was the bunker ever modified, moved added or does it exist as it has from the start?


BillV

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2001, 01:28:00 AM »
To avoid the wrath of a certain someone, I must also respectfully submit a request for <--------- over there regarding the Old Course as well.  

TEPaul

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2001, 01:37:00 AM »
Patrick:

You don't have to go out and catch somebody posting under my name this time, actually that wasn't some deranged moron posting under my name, that was moronic me! But that was a long time ago and since then I've learned my lesson--I'll never do anything like that again.

Making a remark like that to George Bahto sort of reminds me of a remark I once made to Betty Jameson (US Open winner and one of the founders of the LPGA). Betty is a good friend and she used to teach some at Gulf Stream G.C. in Delray. Betty was a great disciple of Tommy Armour and all his techniques and teaching methods. I'd read one of Tommy Armour's books and one day I said to Betty that I thought that Armour's method of recommending the ball be played back in the stance was outdated and wrong and that the new way of playing the ball up in the stance was better. I thought she was going to compare the two methods but she just stared at me for a moment and said; "Tommy Paul I think T. Armour knew a little bit more about the golf swing than you do!"


THuckaby2

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2001, 04:47:00 AM »
Tom Paul:  CLASSIC!

I've read a bit about Ms. Jameson and she seems like a GREAT lady... any other insights you care to share?  Feel free to send to me by email if you don't want to say on here... I did a bit of research once on great lady pros and her name kept coming up.

And BillV, again, pardon my french but GOD DAMMIT!  I have always been the staunchest defender of Pebble Beach - as you well know, our battles have gone on for YEARS over this and other CA greats.  And #8 was always my archetype, my trump card....

But as we discussed the other day, you have me, my friend.  Going over this shot for shot, feature for feature, putting everything in context... the only advantage I could give to my beloved #8 is indeed the "majesty" of the 2nd shot, being so open and visually stunning.  Everything else goes to Alps.

You bastard (I say with all fondness and reverence).  You knew it all along.

Well, bear with me, the learning continues...

TH
tom.huckaby@clorox.com


THuckaby2

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2001, 05:04:00 AM »
PS - what is really blowing my mind here also is that I could make a strong argument that any of #2, #8, #14, #16 might be "better" par 4 holes than #3!  I'm not saying they necessarily are so, but if someone wanted to argue that they'd have a lot of ammunition.

Good God....

TH


BillV

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2001, 05:51:00 AM »
Huckster

Moi, je parle un peu Francais, aussi.

Play the "game", find the (relatively) weakest hole.   Jeux sans frontieres....


TEPaul

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2001, 06:15:00 AM »
TomH:

Yes, there is a story about Betty Jameson I did tell on here but I don't know whether you were on here then or where it is now.
First of all, my Dad knew all those people of that era because he worked for Spalding and he also played the states and national circuit for about twenty five years.

Unfortunately, for me, I didn't care anything about architecture before he died so I have no idea what he thought about that and as far as just golf itself he always felt that talking about it with people who he wasn't sure were really interested was both a waste of time and probably boring for them. I hate to think he thought I didn't care much about golf because he didn't talk to me much about it unless I asked him things specifically and I sure didn't do that as much when he was around as I would now if he was still here.

So he kept what he knew to the little fraternity that he knew cared and was actually pretty descrete about that too. My stepmother didn't really care about golf so Dad would do things like get up early on a Sunday morning (almost every Sunday morning it now turns out) and go down to a restaurant and meet Betty Jameson and her friend Mary Lena Faulk (another great touring pro from that era) and sometimes T. Armour (who lived about 1/4 mile down the street from Dad) and they would have breakfast and probably talk over the good old days and stuff.

Anyway the story from Betty that I put on here she told me about four years ago after Dad died and Mary Lena too. It was about the time the LPGA was forming and we got talking about Babe Zaharias and how extraordinary she was although always controversial. And how she factored into the forming of the LPGA.

Babe was the real draw and most of the time since they had little to play in they would do these touring exhibition and sometimes to Europe too. One exhibition match was set up in England and included Babe, Betty, Louise Suggs and I can't remember the fourth (might have been Patty Berg). They were to play the four top ranked men amateurs in England, including the British Am Champ! It was a scratch match but obviously the ladies were on the ladies tees. Babe was a real showwomen and a helluva gambler and she was inclined in personal games to go back to the championship tees against any man because she could hit the ball a mile (Babe, if you don't know, is still today considered one of the great women athletes of all time, Olympic athlete in track and field and all).

So to their horror just prior to tee off of the first match, Babe says she's going back to the championship tees with her opponent and that the other ladies are too! So that's what they all did and Betty was playing last and well into her match she heard that all the other ladies had won their matches! She said, Tommy, I'd played in everything there was to play in but the pressure I felt to win my match was more than I ever felt before or since. And she did win her match and it was a sweep!

After a while I said, Betty how in the hell was something like that possible? With absolutely no pride or self congratulatoriness whatsoever, Betty thought for a while longer about that and said; "I really don't know, except it was windy that day and Babe had a whole lot of shots and never minded trying any of them any time and a couple of the others of us grew up in Texas and were natural born wind players and most of the girls we played with had those shots anyway." Finally she said, "I guess we just showed them some shots they'd never seen before and certainly not from a girl--that's just golf I guess."

That's without doubt one of the coolest and most surprising golf stories I've ever heard!


THuckaby2

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2001, 06:16:00 AM »
You ask the tough questions, Bill.  But one never learns without pain and effort - at least one never learns anything worth learning.

OK, weakest hole at NGLA.  My God is this painful.

I'm gonna propose #9 - Long.  To me, this was a bit too close to the normal "slug and hope" par 5 I could find at home.  The green also is fairly flat and for this course, relatively featureless.

I could also defend this as a great hole, mind you.  But you asked for the weakest and this is my nomination.

One cool aside - having hit my 2nd into the left rough about 90 yards short of the green, I was freakin' astounded to find CACTUS PLANTS there!  There were a few at Shinne as well... We could only guess that at some point such were given as gifts by a visiting tribe and planted.  Just another eerie cool feature....

TH


THuckaby2

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2001, 06:24:00 AM »
TEPaul:  THANK YOU!  I believe I have heard a form of that story either here or elsewhere but never told so well.  That is indeed VERY cool and surprising.

I'm kind of a "Babe-ophile" from way back, so I love stories involving Mrs. Zaharias.  Did you happen to see the ESPN "SportsCentury" feature on her? It was great but delved a bit too much into certain alleged "relationships" with other females for my tastes... why slander the woman so long after her death?  But in any case, it did elaborate on what I've thought for years - that she belongs among the all-time greatest American athletes PERIOD.

It was actually in reading about Babe over the years that Ms. Jameson's name kept appearing... as well as Berg, Suggs, Rawls, all the early LPGA greats.

I really have no idea why this fascinates me so, but I can trace it back to a book my Dad gave me when I was quite young... it had to do with greatest athletes and Babe was the only woman in there...

I've gotta find it and make my daughter read it.  It's not hard to have female athletic role models / heroes these days, but she ought to know about Babe.  And then if she gets into golf, she's gonna get a crash course in LPGA history if she wants!

TH


Mike_Cirba

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2001, 06:29:00 AM »
My, how this thread has wandered...what happened to "five and dime" at Ridgewood?

Isn't GCA fun?  Thank God they didn't offer Ritalin for ADHD when we were kids or this discussion group would never drift in the continually amusing and entertaining ways it inevitably does.  


redanman

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2001, 06:33:00 AM »
I LOVE to play golf with the ladies, I don't know about you guys.

This story tells it all.  Cool story, Tommy. Sometimes I think the women folf are more competitive than the men.  My wife sure is more so than I am.  Man am I lucky to get to play with her.


THuckaby2

Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2001, 06:35:00 AM »
Call me the thread hijacker, Friend Cirba.  Mea culpa!

But this is damn fun...

TH


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2001, 01:31:00 PM »
Tom H -

It's time to take the next step - a new thread with a hole by hole discussion of NGLA. I'll even volunteer to copy over the stuff on #s 2 & 3.

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Greg Stebbins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Five and Dime at Ridgewood
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2001, 01:33:00 PM »
Mike,

The hole is 289 from the tips.  The tee has never been extended (nor does it ever need to be).  Since the green is set at an angle, It is the full 289 plus significantly uphill.  It doesn't seem that uphill unless you stand on the green and look back.  In order to drive it, you would need to hit a high soft drive, 50 yards uphill, that lands between 286 and 292.. no farther no less.