Five and Dime at Ridgewood

[Mike_Cirba]

We seem to have a real affinity among this group for short par fours, but I played one today that seems remarkably simple to build, yet is almost unique in practice.  

I left wondering why we don't see more of this type of hole in modern architecture.

The 6th hole at Ridgewood CC on the "Center Nine" is a wee par four of 289 yards.  Sounds anachronistic on the face of it, but it's a butt puckerer.  

The tee shot is a simple one over a slight rise, and although the yardage is eminently drivable by big hitters, a 200 yard layup is much wiser.

The green then sits well above the fairway, on the edge of a narrow ridge.  Deep bunkers are cut into the hillside on the left, and the right side falls far below the extremely narrow green to pots on the bottom of the hillside.  

I didn't pace it off, but I would guess the width of the green is no more than 25 feet.  From front to back it's maybe 60-70 feet, but is divided by a significant ridge and contains a steep back to front slope.

The hole is exacting, exciting, and exquisite, yet I can't think of another short par four that is similar in concept and execution.  Have others played holes of similar yardage and design?

Incidentally, the five and dime nickname suggests that the player who doesn't make at least 5 makes at least 10.  The actually name of the hole is "Scoonie", which works for me although I have no idea what it refers to.  

Can anyone imagine any of today's architects building a similar hole?

[Peter Galea]

Mike,
Sorry to be so pedestrian, but I had to look up "Scoonie."

Scoonie
Fife

A north-eastern suburb of the town of Leven on the south coast of Fife, Scoonie takes
its name from the parish whose church was granted to the Culdees of Loch Leven by
Tuadal, Bishop of St Andrews in the 1060s. Abandoned in 1769 when a new parish
church was built in Leven, the ruins of this church lie in a cemetery adjacent to the A
915 road to Largo. There is a golf course and bowling club.

[Peter Galea]

Oh yeah, I remember now....Scoonie was a clerk at Woolworth's.

[ForkaB]

Mike

This hole sounds a lot like the 18th at Scoonie, which is the working man's alternative to Lundin Links and Leven--its close neighbors (you see the upland holes at Scoonie when you are driving eastward on the main road towards Lower Largo).

Rich

PS--great meeting you and playing with you in Philly last weekend.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I seem to remember a course on the RIGHT side of the road on the way to Lundin/Leven, and that name certainly isn't ringing any bells at the moment.

It was an inland/parkland course that was set on a hillside. Rich, could this be the course you are talking about?

[ForkaB]

Tommy

That's the one!  The holes down the hill towards the "town" and the links are more interesting than the ones you can see on the road to Lundin.  The 18th is 320 and drivable in the summer IF you can thread your ball along the narrow high ridge that goes down the right side of the fairway.  Otherwise you have to try to cut a 1-iron into the hill and hope that you have killed it enough so it doesn't career down the slope to the OB all along the left hand side of the "fairway."  Or, you can wimp out and hit 8-iron, 8-iron, and hope that your second doesn't land on the green and bound over the tastefully understated clubhouse.

Check it out on www.scoooniegolfclub.com.

Rich

[archie]

Mike,

I would imagine most architects today are a little scared of building a really small green, not without some reason. Unless it is a super exclusive, the compaction and stress on a tiny green is a good reason to give a little more size to the green, perhaps this being a given, the really short hole doesn't work quite as well. I know the 8th at Pine Valley, a great short par four, just couldn't hold up the entire season to the traffic. Not only foot traffic but pinning space becomes a limiting factor in greens without much square footage. But the good ones are lots of fun!

One way to design around this is to build a short hole with some fallaway collection areas that spread out the wear and play almost like a green. These seem to proliferate in the West and Southwest more so than our neck of the woods. Keep swinging!

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Archie makes a really good point about holes like the one you described. They do have maintenance and playability problems most times unless on a low play golf course (very limited pin positions and consequent wear and tear). I'm sure there are clever ways of compensating for that though, but that's another subject.

Sure, I've seen a ton of holes like that on many of the old courses here and there. There are a few holes that may not look like the one you describe but play like it! There are at least two at Apawamis but they are generally unpopular with members because they give golfers fits (and they may give the supers fits too). But they are cool little items, nonetheless.

For a hilariously unique little par 4 that is very driveable but with caution you have to check out #4 Misquamicut! Gil did and he loved it. It's actually dead straight down a fairway that has a washboard effect so dramatic it can cause blindness and a green that you can reach if you sneak the ball through some complex front bunkering but the green falls away bigtime! It's the greatest--all 278yds of it. It's #4 but if it were something like #17 it could really strut it's stuff!

As for the etymology of "Sconnie", I can give it to you exactly. It's named after Shelby Schoonmaker, a girl we all use to know and we all called her "Schoonie". She was pretty and fun as hell and everybody wanted to go out with her and everybody did for a short time but noone could seem to keep her. Through all this I tried to get close to her and every now and then I did, but close was as near as I ever got. If anyone ever made birdie or even a par with her, I never knew about it!

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Good post!

The 6th at Ridgewood's Center course is a superb hole. But, there are quite a few others in the Garden State that are also unqiue because they are short but still demand precision and strategic thinking.

Among modern courses I must say the design by Jack Nicklaus of the 2nd hole (320 yards)at the Chiricahua Course at Desert Mountain is no less a superb hole. The hole gives you multiple options and any number is in play.
Modern designers can create such holes when they apply themselves.

Other in Jersey were noting certainly include the 8th at PV, the 18th at Shackamaxon, the 4th at Plainfield, the 14th Alpine (although the green is being somewhat altered), along with quite a few others that I can add when time permits.

Sometimes what happens, these short holes are often at courses that get less total fanfare for their entire design. I will post a number of other type holes in the quality of the 6th at Ridgewood's Center Course later today.

Regards,

[TEPaul]

There are a few other short par 4s that I like a lot and some quite modern. I think I like the very short par 4 (maybe #7) at Blue Heron West, the Steve Kay design, but the hole is controversial with a lot of golfers because you stand on the tee and the hole is right there in front of you but all you really seem to see is various areas of sand that seem to hide almost all the fairway areas except a short left stretch that you really can't hit more than a 5 iron to. The other areas are there (and quite accomodating) just hidden by the bunkering all over the middle of the hole. It's sort of the ultimate "feel" or "trust" hole but a very interesting one.

I also predict that #8 Hidden Creek (not yet open) will be a great little (driveable) par 4 with lots of options and complexity and a good deal of blindness and a contour feature on the green that's remarkable! Golfers that play the course even once I don't think will forget this one!

[George Pazin]

Archie -

What if you made a bigger green that had subsections, something like the Short Hole at NGLA? Then you could move the pin around, but the hole wouldn't necessarily be any easier.

[THuckaby2]

Cirba, do you EVER work?

You remain my hero, AMG-East.

AMG-West

ps - it was absolutely fantastic to spend a day with you in your world last week.  Damn that was fun.  Now you get your ass out to CA and I'm gonna beat myself silly till I find a cool "hidden gem" to compete with the wonderful Jeffersonville you showed me.  I'm leaning toward Pacific Grove Muni - we gotta show you some dunes, iceplant and ocean.

[TEPaul]

George Pazin:

Now you're talking! Adding on to architecture is a creative compromise that follows the historic building tenet that if you're going to do anything to it do it so you can take it off if you need to without destroying what was there.

If at all possible (and it may not be possible) if you need to work with these cool old greens that are low on pinnable space or just small, look to add to them and leave what is already there alone. If it doesn't work out you can always take out what you added and you haven't hurt or changed anything that was original!

[Mark_Fine]

I expect Gib will comment on the drivable par four on the frontside at Olympic Lake.  I believe it's #7.  I love that golf hole.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
The hole you are describing sounds very much like the "Knoll" style hole, as described by George Bahto in his informative interview here at GCA.
A driveable par four, if done well, is definitely fun to play. More should be built.    

[THuckaby2]

On the subject of drivable par 4's, can I just say that I was COMPLETELY blown away by the genius of #2 at NGLA?  You have all of this going on:

1. The caddie gives you the aggressive line for the tee shot and you think to yourself "he's insane - there's no way that can be the intended golf shot" as he stands in the brush 50 yards left of the bunker and fairway to the right of that, with a carry over a valley that visually looks too for for Tiger to do.  All your senses tell you to hit it at the grass you can see, or maybe if you are bold over the bunker - but that visually looks damn far also.

2. Thus the unitiated, timid, or smart (depending on the wind direction) hit it at or right of the fairway bunker, toward the beckoning grass.

3. You then find that IF you've kept it far enough left (ie over the bunker), you are down in a bowl with a semi-blind pitch over a bunker... if you've gone too far right, you can be completely blind... but for those of lesser strength, there also is a flat area way to the right that makes for a clear, but longer shot...

4. Meanwhile, on the caddie's given aggressive line, upon reaching the area of one's 2nd shot, you see the issue - the carry really ISN'T that far - it has to be very doable in no wind - and the reward is VERY tangible - a fairway appears up there on the left shelf, and slopes quite sharply down toward the green, with no bunkers or anything in the way - here comes the head slap - a drive in that direction can CERTAINLY not only make the carry, but also reach the green!

5. But oh no, genius CB Mac isn't done yet.  Just to show that the power game isn't completely rewarded with reckless abandon, he throws in a sharp "ramp" about five yards short of the green... with the result that in normal firm and fast conditions, three things occur:  a) it helps a ball creeping down the hill but hit strong enough to actually reach the green; b)it punishes the over-egoed who take the aggressive line but don't hit it far enough, by complicating tremendously a pitch from back by the fairway bunker; and most importantly, c) an aggressive drive played perhaps too low and too hard will actually PICK UP speed off that ramp, and thus the very real possibility of going THROUGH the green presents itself!  To make matters "worse", there is a sharp slope behind the green, leading to a shot that cannot be very good for the score if one goes over.

Whew!  What a great golf hole!  There are at least five very real distinct ways to play the tee shot, and the world of outcomes seems to be limitless.  A strong player has the very real chance to make a 2... but a mistep most definitely means 5 or higher.  The player of less strength has a quite doable way to make a 4 with two well-planned shots...

Now THAT is a great short par 4.

And here's the greatness of NGLA again - one could make a strong argument that #2 is among the weaker holes on the course!

Do NOT get me started on #3... #8...

Sorry for the ramble.  This all might be very obvious to those who frequent NGLA but it literally took my breath away.  I didn't want to leave this hole!

TH

[Bill_Perlee]

Tom,
I know it's off the topic and you asked us not to ask, but give us your rundown on the third at NGLA.  Re-living the second through your eyes was almost as much fun as playing it.

[Bill_McBride]

The 6th at Ridgewood as described by Mike sounds a bit like the 16th at Pacific Dunes - driveable (don't think so? ask John D. Bernhardt who whacked in on our third try at the hole, albeit from the white tees downwind) - steep slope protecting the right side, deep collecting bunkers on the left. And very narrow and quick.  The dangerous route straight at the green offers tricky pitches up the bank out of the rough, but that seemed to be the best way to play the hole downwind.

[Matt_Ward]

If you want to see another Tillinghast gem of a short par-4 try the 17th at Alpine CC in Demarest, NJ. The hole plays about 340 yards and is uphill. The fairway is as wide as a lane on I-80 and the green is slightly elevated above the fairway.

The green is small and is pitched towards the player and any approach that is just short can easily spin way off the front.

Long hitters can get near the green, but unless you hit an archer-like drive you are risking a fate worse than death if you fail to execute. In simple terms you find out if you have brass or parakeet ones!

What's interesting is that New Jersey and New York have so many of these type holes at a number of courses that are not high on the pecking charts (i.e. Winged Foot, Baltusrol, et al.) but still have unique individual holes that are not necessarily long, but ooze with real charm and strategy. No doubt the 6th at Ridgewood's Center is a winner and unfortunately was not really highlighted thru NBC's coverage because the hole came too early in the round. If the hole were later in the round it would have garnered a tremendous amount of publicity.

Regards,

As someone who hits the ball a decent ways off the tee I always enjoy the challenge of hitting a driver on a short par-4 provided the architect gives you the elements of clear risk and reward.

Regards,

[Patrick_Mucci]

The 6th at Ridgewood Center isn't really driveable.  Okay, perhaps Tiger and a few others might.

It is uphill all the way, with the green rising sharply uphill, surrounded by bunkers front, right and long, woods left.

As you get very close to the green, the terrain, rough and bunkers don't present an inviting shot.

I have a fondness for the hole, especially since I birdied it to win the Ridgewood Member guest Championship flight this year.

My method of playing the hole is worth noting.

I hit a perfect 3-metal, to about 60 yards from the green.

The pin was over the mid-green hump toward the back.

A perfectly bladed L-wedge, traveling at about 2000 mph, struck the flagpole square, landing about six (6) feet from the hole.

I then sank the downhill six (6) footer for a birdie.

That's the way to play the hole !

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Way to keep it under the wind!  

Matt,

In a pretty ironic coincidence, I was just reading about the 17th at Alpine and thought it might be similar to Ridgewood's 6th.  

Did you ever happen to get over to take a look at the greens at Scotch Hills?

All,

In the 1990 US Senior Open at Ridgewood, supreme shotmaker Lee Trevino birdied the hole three times while Nicklaus bogied it three times.  Trevino won by 2 shots over Nicklaus.  However, even a consummate ball-striker like Trevino had to bring the approach in a little higher than Patrick Mucci.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Tiger's agent just called me! He said Tiger heard about that 2000mph bladed L wedge you hit at Ridgewood and he wants to talk to you about the technique. Apparently Tiger thinks his creative shot inventory is getting a bit stale since he hasn't added anything in about two years and he thinks it might be useful somewhere (maybe in Europe). The young man is a perfectionist, as you know, and he's very interested in trajectory, but also the kind of accuracy you've obviously perfected. He's no longer satisfied to stand in a parking lot and take out various windows on various floors on a building with controlled trajectories--he thinks that's too easy now and windows are targets that are too large, he wants to hit flagsticks with regularity and control the spin and rebound so he's never more than six feet from the pin. He says he can do it better than you in that he will never even have a downhill six footer, always uphill!

[brad_miller]

Pat, would have loved to see the looks on the faces in your group, "quick smiles turn to ugly glares" What do they say, every golf shot makes someone happy.

[Matt_Ward]

The best other short hole that I can think of on two major championship courses are:

17th at Oakmont (320 yards)

7th at Olympic (Lake) (288 yards)

Both can be driven, more so at Olympic, and the greens on each are really unique )particularly at Olympic). Any player deciding to do so better have real nerve and excellent execution.

On the tour side I've always liked the 7th at Westchester CC (310 yards). The green is protected by trees and is angled to three different tiers. Can be driven but at a price if not executed.

Regards,

P.S. Pat, I've driven the 6th at Ridgewood Center and I know of a few others who have gotten it to the green or pin high left. It's certainly not a recommended course of action but it can be done.

Mike:

The greens at Scotch Hills are clearly special, but we won't be listing the story just yet. Probably will appear in the next issue in the Spring. Thanks for the recommendation. Our major story this issue will be the restoration efforts underway at Plainfield / re: Gil Hanse. Talk sooooon ...

[THuckaby2]

Bill:  what the hell, ask and ye shall receive.  And everyone please do indulge me here, it is cathartic for me to do this.

NGLA #3:  Alps.

So one comes off #2 hopefully realizing that this is not your usual golf course.  You get to #3 tee and here's what you face:

1. Where the hell is the green?  You see a fairly wide fairway with a hill on the left, bunkers and scrub and trees on the right, narrowing down to the end... where there is nothing!  The caddie then points you to a flag-pole off over the hill on the left, way out in the distance, and again, you think he's insane.  The green is there?  Then you remember the name of the hole and the great hole it tries to mimic and ahhhh... you get it - this is the Alps!  Drive down the fairway and then hit a heroic approach over the Alps, to a green sitting on the far side below the back of the hill.  Sounds simple enough.

2. But the CBMac genius comes through again.  Off the tee, the farther right you go, the less hill you have to go over, and at least a little visual help is given.... but the farther left you go, the shorter distance it is to the green... and given that the hole is 426 from the back tees, and the 2nd is going to be severely uphill no matter what, shortening the distance might be required to hope to make the green at all on the 2nd...

3. So then depending on how you hit the drive, you are then faced with several choices:

a) success down the left or in the center means a medium iron go at the green, up over the hill, aiming at the flagpole and hoping for the best (allowing for two extra clubs for the hill, and God help you if it's into the wind).

b) any drive to the right means a LONG shot, with the same possibilities.

c) any unsuccessful drive then brings out even more CB Mac genius.  Once you make the decision to bite the bullet and not tempt the scrub-covered Alps, you are faced with CHOICES for the layup!  I gotta tell you, I haven't seen many holes with layup options, not on par4's anyway.  A very safe shot is advancing it up the valley as far as one can, and if you get it far enough to the end, you get past the hill and the pitch shot is open, simple, and completely viewable in front of you!  This would also be a fine way a player of lesser brute strength could compete with the big-hitters and still win the hole - two shots to this point and a pitch on is going to compete just fine with a drive and a big shot over the Alps very, very often.  Genius.  But anyway, the other option is to try and hit it up to the top of the Alps, but WAY left of the flagpole... where CBMac has given us a pretty significant FAIRWAY from whence the pitch would be very straightforward, open, downhill and even easier than the one from down in the valley!  So if you can get a little more aggressive with the layup, you are also rewarded!

4.  Think that's all there is?  Oh no, not even close.  Just to keep the big boys further in check, at the base of the far side of the Alps, right in front of the green as a straight-ahead 2nd shot over such would go, there is a pretty significant wide bunker!  So oh no, you're not gonna get any help here, no rolling it down ramps on #3 - CB figures you've had your warmup and now you gotta hit some real shots to be rewarded!

5.  We then get to the green, which on a normal fast day would have 25 feet worth of break from right to left on a putt from the front of the green to the back.  There are no gimmes here.

I believe I've covered it all but here's the final kicker:  change the wind direction and the entire process changes completely!

So ok, if you think I was blown away after #2, I was nearly in freakin' tears after number 3... and when you putt out, you walk up a little rise to #4 tee and THE REDAN appears before you!!!!

Is there a better start to golf than 1-4 at NGLA?

TH