Redan greens

[Ted_Sturges]

I played a round at Camargo Club in Cincinnati yesterday, and noticed a feature on their redan hole that I had not seen or noticed before on any of the other redans I have played.  Their redan hole (#15) is an absolutely gorgeous hole that looks and plays as well as any redan I've seen.  The green has a feature that I think might be unique to redan holes.  The green has a mini-spine or ridge in it, bisecting the green at approximately the same angle as the green complex, that "catches" any shots that land on the front part of the green and turn those balls down left and short of the back half of the green.  To get to the back hole location, the golfer must land beyond this spine, or play the shot higher up the bank to allow the ball to roll beyond the spine and get to the back half of the green.  It was a really cool feature that made the redan at Camargo play differently than any other I can remember playing.  Is this a unique feature to Carmargo's redan?  Has anyone seen another redan hole that has this feature?  George Bahto are you listening?

TS

[TEPaul]

Never! Most of the redans I've seen are slightly swale-like in the filtering area on the green space--certainly no spine in them, I've ever seen.

Tillinghast's #2 Somerset Hills though is a variation I've never seen before where the front half of the green appears to be almost straight at the tee and at approximately midsection there is a "kicker" that takes the ball left and down as the green then swings to the left.

[George_Bahto]

yes Teddy, I'm listening

Camargo's is really unique with that spine

I just finished a 200-yd Redan at Sands Point GC (private) that has a spine and also has a depression area at the right rear that it is almost impossible to get to - the hole plays into a prevailing wind, usually at about 1.5 clubs

Banks put a mound (spine) thru a Redan here at The Knoll - it runs with the angle of the green and really doesn't deflect - it just aggrevates!

I like what Raynor did at did on the Redan at CC of Fairfield where he put the "deflection mound" just in the approach before the green ....... it looks like some giant sat down bare-assed and made this mound with depressions on each side

[Ward_Peyronnin]

Ted,

Any other comments regarding the course, experiance?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Though not a redan by the strictest definition, #17 at Pebble has some features of a redan and definitely has the spine through the middle.  The hole is about the right length, it's angled from front right to back left, it has bunkers on the front left, and most of the green is not visible from the tee, though that is due to the bunkers, not the tilt of the green.  The one time I played it, the pin was back left and I was on the other side of the spine and had to putt it through the fringe to get to anywhere near the hole.

[redanman]

Scott

Naaaaaah, can't buy that one.  Way too much of a stretch.  SFGC #7 must be a redan, too.

[TEPaul]

To me a redan or redan style green has something about its slope or internal contour that moves the ball naturally across the green somehow. Whether that "kicker" is off the green and combines with the green's slope to do that or is on the green. Redan's generally have a distinguishing orientation to them and a bit of a distinguishing shape too. I feel generally their greenspace is somewhat swaled but there has been some evidence of "spines" within that swalish shape. Most I think have to have some kind of significant tilt somehow to accomplish their purpose and function properly.

When you talk about the bunker placement and just a "spine" on a green like #17 Pebble, I really don't think that makes for much of anything redan style. The ball doesn't really move right to left on that green and that's what it should do with that green's orientation if it was redanish at all. If you could call that green in anyway redan style just because of its front bunker positioning you could probably call #12 somehow redan style and that's getting way to loose with a definition.

[Ted_Sturges]

Ward,

Camargo is a very cool place.  Similar in many ways to Yeamans Hall Club, Camargo is instantly recognized as a Rayor.  I told Ran that of the 36 holes between Camargo and YHC, that the 3 strongest holes and the 3 weakest holes would all be at Camargo.  Camargo's best holes are not at the beginning of the course.  The first 3 do not inspire.  The 4th hole "Narrows" is a 455 yard par 4 with a HUGE green with 2 mini-hogs backs on it (imagine the 5th green at YHC, then make it 30% bigger, and then add 2 milder spines in the green, rather than one down the middle).  A hard hole, but really fun to play.  The 5th is a fantastic Eden hole, the 6th is a shorter and tamer version of the 14th at YHC, and then you step onto the 7th tee.  The 7th is my favorite hole at Camargo.  This is an alps hole with a wonderful punchbowl green.  From the fairway, all the golfer sees is the flag (not the flagstick mind you...the flag).  Really cool hole.  The 8th is the biarritz (all 230 yards of it), and the 9th is a dogleg right par 4.  The 10th is a 440 yard brute, the 11th is "Short". (This stretch from 4-11 is sensational).  The redan is #15 and the other strong holes on the back are the 16th with the clevage green (similar to the 11th at YHC), and the strong finishing 18th.  Their road hole is a 515 yard par 5 (the 17th), which was a fine looking hole, but seemed lacking somehow.  Definitely not as strong as the 10th at Shoreacres.

It is a must see for Raynor fans.  Camargo is a fun place to visit.

TS

[SPDB]

Ted - Please extend your Camargo stretch to include the "Channel" 12th hole. In fact, i think that 11+12 (short, and channel) are the best back to back holes on the course (just edging out the 7,8 (alps,biarritz) combo. The tee shot is splendid requiring a carry over a slight ravine. The movement on the hole is wonderful as doglegs gently uphill and right to a terrific green complex.

I also think the 9th hole - "Long" is vastly underrated, the strategy choices dictated by the bunker on the knoll are tremendous.

[Peter Galea]

I think # 12 at Pebble has some redan like featu....Nahhh...I won't start this again. Tim Weiman may turn off his computer.

[Ted_Sturges]

To SPDB,

I had a hard time figuring out the 12th "Channel hole" (I have not heard this term to describe a Raynor hole).  I liked the tee shot, and the green complex, but the diagonal bunkers out in front of the green  seemed out of place strategically.  I have seen this form of bunkering on other Raynor courses at about this distance from the green only on par 5 holes, set at the perfect place to make the golfer think about whether to lay up short of the cross bunkers or try to hit it over them.  These diagonal bunkers on the 12th at Camargo were at an unusual spot for a 390 yard hole.  

I now understand that the 12th hole at Camargo was originally a dogleg right par 5 hole, with a fairway set well left of the fairway in play today.  This would make those diagonal bunkers in the appropriate spot.  I think I would like the 12th better in it's original form.  

I'm not saying that the 12th is a bad hole, just not one of Camargo's best in my opinion.

TS

[George_Bahto]

12th Camargo:

The hole was supposed to be an alternate fairway hole - the other alternate was to the right. That's why thoses diagonal bunkers short of the green look so weird. The were in line playing in from the never-bilt fairway.

The alternate fairway was never built. myself and others have suggested it be built as suggested by Seth.

Bear in mind this was one of the incomplete courses when Raynor died.  The 17th and the 18th holes were completed by the club - I guess Banks couldn't get there in time (too much to finish).  Even the 17th was not built as original drawn by Raynor.

All that said - this is one of his finest works ........... the course just seems to have grown out of the ground.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Well, I tried.  A little.  It's the only green that I can think of that has a spine in it.  #5 at Soaring Eagles has a tube in it, but not a spine.

[TEPaul]

Whoaa...George Bahto! "The course just seems to have grown out of the ground"?

Could you explain that a little more...or a lot more? Do you feel any of the holes of NGLA have grown out of the ground?

[George_Bahto]

Tommy - the holes at National seems to have jumped out of the ground    

That description about Camargo was uttered by the one and only Ralph "Tubby" Barton (he of short attention span), Raynor's associate at the time.

I agree - Raynor considered Camargo as being his best inland course .... I personally think, he felt it is less engineered than most (more natural looking). I like the way the fairways seem to flow into the greens more "smoothly"