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Ran Morrissett

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How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« on: November 01, 2001, 06:07:00 PM »
I'm not talking about how they are presented today - clearly, NGLA is miles ahead in terms of being purer to the architect's original intent given the attention that Karl Olson has lavished on it.

I'm talking about winding the clock back to each course's respective heyday.

NGLA enjoys the crucial advantage of wind BUT after that... I reckon the two designs are extremely close in overall merit.

For instance, Matt Burrows and I did a hole for hole earlier and the courses are tied on the 15th tee (and for those who have seen old photos of the old 17th and 18th greens at Yale will argue long and hard about which course has the better finish).

Sure, the obvious answer to my question is NGLA but what specific features does it have that Yale doesn't? Generally, NGLA's trump card is it topography/greens  but Yale can match it in both regards (Pine Valley is the only other U.S. course that could say the same).

Yale's Biarritz is every bit as world class as the Redan at NGLA. Yale doesn't have a wild sub-340 yard hole like the 1st at NGLA but Yale's 7th and 14th are a pair of classy 370 yarders. While Yale may not have a great Bottle Hole or a great Cape hole, the Cape green on its 2nd and its 8th hole aren't exactly chop liver  

While NGLA may have more central bunkers, the ridges on Yale's Double Punchbowl hole, 8th hole, and Home hole are unique central hazards in their own right.

So...what does NGLA's design enjoy that Yale doesn't??


Mike_Cirba

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2001, 06:12:00 PM »
Ran,

The simple answer to your question is that NGLA does not contain any weak, routine, or indifferent holes.  

However, the fact that you would even ask that question is quite indicative of exactly how good of a design Yale truly is.


Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2001, 06:27:00 PM »
Mike, The only remotely routine hole at Yale would be its 16th and yet, who knows how cool was its original green complex? 9 at NGLA may not have been too much better.

GeoffreyC

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2001, 06:45:00 PM »
Ran

I enjoyed talking with you about this the other day and I've thought about it a bit more.

I think the obvious answer is that NGLA pressures you immediately off the tee with choices that have much more profound consequences due to the amazing fairway bunkering schemes and even more fairway contour then Yale. I've heard it said (probably by George) that the Yale property doesn't require a lot of fairway bunkers, however, NGLA is equally or if anything more vast then Yale.

Yale certainly requires playing the proper angles into the greens to find pins but the consequences of a mistake are not as great as at NGLA.  

However, from what I've seen of the old construction photos of Yale when it was first built it was more then likely much more brutal then NGLA around the greens.

I LOVE the Yale course and I agree that there is not a remotely average hole but for 16 on the whole course but NGLA is a 10 if ever there was one.  To quote Huckaby- It's genious at work man!


GeoffreyC

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2001, 06:48:00 PM »
I meant to say

Yale certainly requires playing the proper angles into the greens to find pins but the consequences of a mistake OFF THE TEE are not as great as at NGLA.


redanman

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2001, 08:58:00 PM »
Ran

How can you ask this?  Is SFGC next?


Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2001, 03:36:00 AM »
Geoffrey,

Are you refering off the tee to more deep fairway bunkers/hey rough at NGLA vs having to chip out from the trees and rocky underbrush at Yale?

Not that either should be a common occurence as in both cases, you have missed a 50-75 yard wide fairway.


GeoffreyC

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2001, 04:34:00 AM »
Ran

The choices of a line off the tee at National seem to me to require more thought and in choosing those lines the actual size of the landing area decreases because of the bunkers and hey.

The comparable tee shots at Yale that really work VERY well are #'s 3,4,6 14 and 18.

I know Yale very well and I have been to NGLA only once so obviously this is a first impression but it seemed to be a striking one to me.


THuckaby2

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2001, 04:36:00 AM »
The tough questions do get asked here....

And this one is very hard for me to answer, especially having just seen each obviously as they are today.  Geoffrey tried his best to explain to me how things WERE at Yale but it might be more than my feeble imagination can handle...

I will say this - 9 NGLA and 16 Yale might be comparable as "ordinary" holes, so comparing then the other 17 at each...

Well, like Mike says, it's a helluva compliment to Yale that this comparison can be made and it is so close.

I'd need help from Geoffrey and George Bahto to really see this... but I sure can believe it.  Yale is incredible as it is today and if it does lose today, it's not by much.  Thus I suppose I can imagine a much fairer fight as it was and was meant to be...

Two freakin' gems, I think.  And yes, genius all over the place - at both.

TH


Patrick_Mucci

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2001, 06:29:00 AM »
Ran,

There may be more options in the play of each hole, and far more variety in the choice of shots to play into each green at
NGLA.

I think NGLA also enjoys a more open, expansive feel.


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2001, 10:46:00 PM »
Geoffrey,
I am curious if you have ever talked to Herb Wind about Yale since he went to school there?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

M.W._Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2001, 03:35:00 AM »
Mike,
Do you feel that 9-12 at NGLA are that spectacular?  

I think with a true restoration Yale jumps pretty close to NGLA.  Anyone who saw George Bahto's sketches and photos of the "original" Yale would concur.  

I feel that what would edge out Yale would be "experience" type things at NGLA, such as the ocean, the expansiveness, and that incredible clubhouse.  


M.W._Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2001, 03:49:00 AM »
Ran,  

If the third green gets restored back to its original location at the water's edge it would be an outstanding cape hole.  Especially with the double punchbowl green George says it had.

Geoff,

Is there any plan for the greens to be restored in the future?  I believe 1,2,3,11,12,and 16 have been altered.  Am I leaving any out?  I can't even imagine how great the course would be with the original green contours.


TEPaul

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2001, 05:46:00 AM »
Matthew:

You ask if holes 9-12 at NGLA are really that spectacular. Other than #9, I think they are! Exactly why takes some looking possibly but it's there in spades when you find it. In my opinion, those holes are spectacular because of their green-ends, greens and parts of their surrounds. The first 2/3 of #10 is very straight forward but when you get to the last 1/3 of the hole (with its semi-blindess) #10 becomes totally brilliant in both unique architecture and strategic ramifications. The enormous bail-out area right is a very subtle offering and the fact that it's so large, I think, enters a good player's head as a real sense of security! It is almost a "reverse temptation" offering and may be one of the best I've ever seen in that way--may be even one of the only ones I've seen with that particular conscious impact. To use it, though, to a front pin position (which would be the most likely time to use it) requires some real work chipping or pitching to a front pin with the narrowness of the front of the green, a gentle upslope and the bunker on the left! Really brilliant stuff. And the new expanded green is 50yds long, by the way. One could play back there for safety to a front pin but putting back to that front pin is not easy at all!

The greens and green-ends of #11 and #12 speak for themselves and are just some more examples of NGLA's "greens within a green". I don't know which green is tougher that way but if you find yourself on either green and in the wrong place you do feel two putting is one of the best recoveries you could hope for!

#9 however, definitely is the weakest and most unchallenging hole at NGLA, although I hate to call it weak and I don't think it is at all, only in comparison to its seventeen brothers! Even the green on #9 is far more complex (but very subtely so) both to approach and putt on than most realize! It is very hard to tell where the pin is on #9 depth-wise and actually quite hard to imagine what kind of shot to hit to get it to the pin (either short or long). This is obviously because the whole green-end is so low profile and standing on the fairway one gets no feel at all for the depth of the green and the gradual mid to back slope-away, particularly on the left, just can't be seen. I can't tell you how many times I've hit third shots to that green that I thought would be perfect for the particular pin only to find I'm short to a back pin or long to a front pin.

There is also something about putting that green I've never been able to figure out. It's mysterious to me just like #9 at Maidstone is. As well as I know both I just can't understand either and always feel uncomfortable putting on them. Maybe #9 NGLA is just so big and gradually sloping with not much else to it is what throws me off. I've hit a lot of long putts on that green that felt right only to have them way long or way short.

But otherwise, #9 doesn't have anywhere near the whole hole interest of the others. I do like the sort of alternate tongue on the right on the drive and I love those blind bunkers on the left. Have you ever seen more interesting bunker shapes and such in one large set? I haven't.

The cross feature on the midsection of the hole really doesn't do much for any golfer anymore. It might slow down a real long hitter (whatever that's worth) and it doesn't come close to challenging anyone on the second shot. The fairway on the second part of the hole is extremely accomodating and this might be the part of the hole that makes the hole the weakest. It's original, though, and I sure wouldn't recommend anything new be done to it at this point.

But if I was out there with C.B in the beginning and he asked for my advice on the second fairway of #9 I would tell him that a cross feature (maybe bunkering or low mounds) would be the ideal thing. I would connect them across the fairway starting from the bunker on the left near the green to the bunker on the right farther from the green. There is about 40-50yds of "down the hole" distance there and would be perfect for a gently snaking diagonal cross feature at about 45 degrees across the entire second half fairway. With an engineering genius like Raynor you could even mess with the top profile heights of the feature to make the whole thing look like it was set almost on a perpendicular to the golfer approaching it.

This would be very deceptive to a first time golfer but with experience one would know that you could play well up the left side without having to cross it or challenge it. But if you wanted to challenge it you could take the short route up the right or anything longer would be progressively challenging as you went towards the center or the left side over it.

To me, doing something like that is no more really than a variation of a Max Behr "line of charm" concept because by doing this you would be sort of taking the center away from the golfer (about the only thing he focuses on now the way the hole is) and make him decide shorter left (not challenging the feature) or challenging it progressively from the right to the center and on to the long left! And of course if any mistake was made with this feature you would have a problem with your third shot in to the green, something you certainly don't have right now anywhere on this broad expanse of fairway!

In a way, this is just about the same concept as the one I think would make the green-end of Gil Hanse's #10 Applebrook much more interesting and challenging if the green fronting bunker scheme was rearranged on the right and taken back to the short bunker (100yds out) on the right thus  connecting the two sets to form a really good diagonal that would make the golfer choose something other than the center lay-up on #10 Applebrook.


George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2001, 05:48:00 AM »
To me the main differences between the two courses is that at NGLA the common thread throughout the
course is the problem off the tee - the diagonal bunkering that, even today, threatens the player on
nearly every hole. Throw in the wind factor which really compounds the problem.

Play National in a 2 to 3 club wind and you have incredible task for the day.

The optional play is there at NGLA - not much at Yale.

Yale on the other hand has some pretty wild topography that adds so much to the play of the course,
especially when it is hard and fast.

From an engineering standpoint: Yale was really a fete - especially considering when it was built.

Is the question - which would you rather play?

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2001, 07:05:00 PM »
TEPaul,

I think you may be dismissing the value and importance of the tee shot at holes
# 9, 10, 11, 12, especially with the different wind directions, and their effect on the tee shot and overall play of the hole.

Into a good wind each of those tee shots is demanding if not ferocious.  Cross winds have a similar effect, with down wind being the most benign, but creating a different set of problems including bunkers and very uncomfortable lies.

While I would agree that the preponderance of the problems may lie closer to the green, don't discount or sell the tee shots short, especially with wind as an important factor.


ForkaB

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2001, 11:57:00 AM »
Thanks Tom and Patrick

I thought I would be excommunicated from this DG if I expressed my admiration for 10-12 at NGLA, which I think are among the best golf holes on that course.


GeoffreyC

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2001, 01:09:00 PM »
I'm glad that the Yoda of NGLA, Mr. Bahto agrees with me about the tee shot values at NGLA.

Ed Getka- I've never had the privledge of meeting Mr. Wind.  I'm sure he has a great understanding of the Yale course and obviously remembers it well.  If I was in charge or had much more to say about the restoration other then my involvement in getting it started I would have certainly tried to take advantage of this knowledge base as well as that of other "old timers" who have been at the course for 50 or more years.

Matt-  I'm not sure there were any changes to the greens on 11 and 12.  12 certainly had some horrible changes to eliminate the alps hill and trench bunker in the name of fairness but that will all be put back (I hope).


ed_getka

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How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2001, 09:18:00 PM »
Geoffrey,
I will be volunteering at Bethpage in June and plan to visit Herb. Perhaps we'll have a chance to meet while I'm out there. If you are interested in meeting Mr.Wind you could join us for lunch or I could give you contact info. He lives near Concord outside of Boston.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

TEPaul

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2001, 03:19:00 AM »
Pat:

I'm not discounting anything about the tee shots on the 9-12 stretch at NGLA. All I'm saying is that the real architectural brilliance on those particular holes is down at and on the greens!


TEPaul

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2001, 03:50:00 AM »
Frankly, far from discounting anything about any of the tee shots at NGLA, I think it would be interesting to look only at the fairways and tee shots of NGLA.

If you look at them individually and as a whole I think you'll find that they could possibly be the most varied and interesting fairways and tee shots of any course on earth.

MacDonald's ability to mix and match almost anything and everything available to him (almost every architectural concept) on his fairways is just amazing. Topography with width and narrowness, angles, every kind and shape of bunkering, deception, blindness, ridges with bowls etc, etc, and on and on!

I really can't think of another golf course that has the extreme variety of tee shots and fairways that NGLA does. There is almost no golf architectural feature he did not use for his tee shot and fairway strategies and concepts--except for trees of course! He even used the wide, flat and relatively featureless fairway one time--the second half of #9! That seems the only place on the golf course where something really interesting is NOT going on! But who knows maybe he did that on purpose too and just for that reason! I doubt it though! But everything else about the fairways of NGLA just about spans the architectural spectrum!


TEPaul

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2001, 04:04:00 AM »
One other NGLA varietal tee shot and fairway feature! Who else on a tee shot managed to place a windmill between the golfers ears? Or even managed to have a clubhouse complex whispering in the player's left ear starting and ending a round?

GeoffreyC

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2001, 04:27:00 AM »
Ed Getka

Thank you so much for your kind invitation.  I would certainly join you and Mr. Wind for lunch ANYTIME.  It would be a great thrill and education to get a chance to exchange ideas with him.

Funny but I'm a long time USGA member, I've played Bethpage Black over 60 times by my best guess beginning in about 1969 yet my ticket request for the US Open at Bethpage was turned down   Friends who are not even USGA members got their requests for tickets. I spent the whole week at Shinnecock Hills in 1995 and I was looking forward to a couple of days at Bethpage.

If you live in the area, I'd like to get together anytime.  Perhaps even at the Yale GC???


Patrick_Mucci

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2001, 06:57:00 AM »
TEPaul,

One of the things I like about the tee shots at NGLA is optional lines of play, and the impact of the wind on those options.

I think # 15 can be one of the hardest driving holes in golf with several different wind directions, and velocities.  And when you factor in the green, and certain pin positions, it goes back to my basic assessment of the hole and golf course,
BRILLIANT.

Going back to # 9, the pin position is partially responsible for placing tremendous emphasis and pressure on the drive.
Any pin position on the mid to rear perimeter, from 8 o'clock to 4 o'clock favors a ball getting as close to the green in two as possible.  As you know the prefered drive is away from the severe left side downslope and bunkers, along the right side woods, skirting the forward bunkers.
And of course, you know the impact of the wind on trying to hit a drive into that neck.
I would agree that the 2nd fairway is benign. but pin locations make the 3rd shot demanding, to a green that does run away from you, and again, the wind has a major impact on your thinking, strategy, and execution.

A hole deemed less than brilliant at NGLA would be considered spectacular on any other course.

But, that's just my opinion.


TEPaul

How big a difference is there between NGLA and Yale?
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2001, 07:37:00 PM »
I agree that a hole deemed less than brilliant at NGLA would probably be spectacular somewhere else and that's probably getting into the realm of #9.

For the sake of architectural argument, though, there's nothing wrong with analyzing what it might take (or would have) to get #9 up there where it's head could be held up in the company of its brethern, as Alister used to say! You know what he said; if a hole didn't have that something it needed to do that then that something just had to be knocked into it!

The drive is a good one and the green is too, but would something on that second fairway make the hole even better. I think it definitely would!