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TEPaul

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« on: October 11, 2001, 07:08:00 AM »
Played Applebrook yesterday with Lynn Shackelford (Geoff's Dad), Jeff Kiddie (head pro, recently from PVGC) and Gil Hanse.

Applebrook has been open for play for about a month. Like almost all Philly area courses Applebrook is going through their fall maintenance schedule at the moment but the course appeared extremely represntative despite that.

I feel there is lots and lots to report about Applebrook. Firstly it's a large departure from Gil's other area course Inniscrone in many and interesting ways.

The site itself is vastly different to start with and the Applebrook site is quite different from almost every other course in this area. The raw land itself was a unique evolution. Originally probably a 200+ acre Pennsylvania farm with obviously lots of history. In the last 25 years the site was owned by Smith Kline Beecham as a animal research center and at some point in the last 25 years the site was landscaped with a number of enormous flat building pads for buildings that were never built. For many years the building pads gave this quite beautiful farmland an almost eerie manufactured look. It was also interesting to speculate how or if Gil might use those building pads in his routing or design!

Applebrook's site was the second choice for the club and its principals and the combination of entities that inspired this course is interesting too. Some limited residential development starting it off plus a conservation easment aegis (brilliant move), as well as an entity of the local township or local board of commerce, I believe.

Residential development went in first, a number of attached housing (and very expensive) and about 11 really expensive detached houses on the southeast corner of the course.

The first impression of the course is it's openness basically exposing most of the holes to view from most vantages of the course. It should be added that this openness extends well beyond the course and therefore gives and will give the course the full benefit of the unfettered (untree blocked) wind. This I believe will be one of the ongoing benefits to Applebrook. It is important to note that a golf course that has few trees often does not get the full benefit of the wind due to sometimes quite distant tree blocks! A good example of this might be the plain of GCGC that has many of its interior trees removed now but the tree blocking effect of the surrounding property's large trees will never give GCGC the full force and directional strength of the wind that Applebrook will have. Ultimately this may be the X factor that will give the design/architecture of Applebrook its teeth and interest and variety!

Inniscrone has been discussed on this website at length but not many of the drawbacks of that site have been, including environmnental restrictions, a certain disconnection of the routing due to residential considerations taking priority and basic local permitting entities tampering with the design for one reason or another. Gil is apparently too nice to ever mention such things but I don't feel that I need to hold back on any of those facts.

In any case, Applebrook did not have such problems and apparently golf planning, routing and design was given first priority and I believe that fact shows through, as it is generally bound to.

We spent about 20 minutes talking with Jarred Viarengo, the super, before going out. He is extremely competent, calm, commonsensical and very much on top of everything and that shows on the course too. Applebrook is lucky to have him and it appears to be an excellent architect/super combo! More on that later.

I'd watched Applebrook under construction from the beginning since I live about 5 miles from it and I must say I never really got or understood the basic theme or intent of the design until yesterday. The basic design intent, I believe, is quite different from much of what we see in new construction today and is probably another good example of how Hanse design has gone out on a limb and taken some chances that could be misunderstood but ultimately should be a great new (or renaissance) offering that hopefully will add to the education and enjoyment of modern golfers with golf architecture!

How did Hanse Design go out on a limb here with a design intent that may be misunderstood? Basically with only about 4-5 exceptions they have created driving areas and space (width) that is incredible open, accomodating and unpenal. With only one exception (#14) there are no real forced carries on any of the par 4s and par 5s on the drives. There are a couple on these holes on other shots and frankly the variety (and demand) of them is brilliant.

But the openness and the accomodation of much of the driving areas of the par 4s and par 5s is already being misunderstood as far as what I've heard. The result of this misunderstanding is far too many golfers are thinking because they aren't really getting in trouble off the tees that the course must be too easy!

Anything but, because the course, I think, is basically a second shot or approach shot golf course. And even that has a certain amount of deceptive simplicity to it. But  the apparent simplicity of the approach shots or second shots has a ton of sophistication to it that the members are soon to learn. And to make that aspect of the course and the design really shine, Jarred Viarengo is going to have to keep that course very firm and fast and the green speeds at a level that will really challenge the golfer and keep the ball moving well with everything that has been designed in for that purpose. That, I think will be the key to Applebrook and is basically that old "maintenance meld" we talk about.

The greens (their fantastic internal contours, slopes, orientations and shapes), the approaches, the numerous and sometimes enoromous close cut chipping areas are what most of the course is all about. Applebrook, I believe, will be a course that's strategies and design intent will emanate from the greens and their surrounds backwards through the holes as well as any course around! In this way the course should play basically to Ross's career theme of ratcheting up the difficulty slowly through the hole as the golfer progresses. Because of the width in the drive areas Applebrook may also be a bit of the theme of Augusta too (or at least what it was once and was supposed to be).

The par 4s and 5s, as mentioned have unusual accomodation off the tees but interestingly none of the par 3s do and this too is a bit of a different design offering! Other than maybe #15 the golfer basically has to hit the par 3 greens or an area that is the designed spot to miss or he will have a problem.

The bunkering at Applebrook is about as good as it gets today in its rugged beauty and in placement, varied sizes, shapes and the hand-worked detail of the surrounds. Hanse, Doak and Coore and Crenshaw are so far out in front of anyone else I've seen in this part of design it's amazing. Not to say some others aren't doing this kind of brilliant bunker work--I just haven't seen it yet.

Another unusual feature of Applebrook is the multiple melded green to chipping areas into tees all over the course. I just love this kind of thing and it's everywhere. Talk about a seemless flow--this is it in spades. The green to tee commutes are very close and cozy too where they can be--just like in the old days!

There are tons more things to say about Applebrook both generally and in detail but this is long and it's enough for now!


THuckaby2

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2001, 07:23:00 AM »
Sounds fantastic, Tom - thanks for the report.  Looking forward to seeing this!

TH


Paul Turner

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2001, 07:31:00 AM »
Tom

Thanks for the report.  Regarding the tee shots there: it sounds easy to hit the fairways, but it there plenty of interest/strategy in where the tee shot is placed?  


TEPaul

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2001, 07:59:00 AM »
Paul:

I think there is plenty of strategy and interest in where the tee shots are placed-- though certainly it appears not so much on some holes and very much so on others. It seems to me that on the holes where angle on the fairway might not appear to relate much to the green ramifications that the fairway has something in and of itself that generates interest and strategy like little turbo-kick areas that will just generate extra distance and not necessarily significant angle and maybe a little rise and plateau across the first fairway that will give you a bit more distance and height if you can carry onto it. Things like that, but then there are holes like #3 and #12 that have strategies and interest to them as to where you place your tee shot that will be much more apparent. Gil is very proud of #12 for this reason and I'm very impressed with #3!

The #3s at both Inniscrone and now Applebrook are fantastic little optional driveable par 4s. Both are going to be well remembered. They are very different one from the other too, but the strategic ramifications of both are sitting down there staring you in the face when you stare at them from the tees!


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2001, 08:20:00 PM »
Tom,
I look forward to seeing Gil's courses next year when I'm traveling back east. The course he is doing in So. Cal (Rustic Canyon) has great bunkering also. Reminds me very much of Mackenzie/Thomas style bunkering. Part of that influence can also be attributed to Geoff Shackleford who has had input into some very interesting bunkering there. Gil's design associate, Jim Wagner, was very gracious and generous with his time to show me around and describe how many of the holes play. After seeing the work at Rustic I'm very interested in seeing more of Gil Hanse's courses. Another interesting thing is how they go about routing their courses. Gil and his associates each do their own routing and then they all compare notes and then Gil will make a final routing from the best ideas. I don't know if this is common with design firms, but it sounds like a very good collaborative way to go about it.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2001, 04:19:00 PM »
Excellent opening post. I don't how the creative dynamics of most firms work, but I definitely get the sense that this firm is
a very collaborative one. Ed's comment about how the Hanse firm individually, then collectively comes up with routing ideas is
interesting to hear. The seamless flow
that TE mention is exemplary.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2001, 05:36:00 PM »
I loved walking Applebrook with the group a few weeks back - probably the coolest golf related thing I have ever done(right up there with dinner at the Hanse's shortly thereafter).

What I liked most about the course was the abundance of skyline greens. My recollection is that few of the greens had any sort of backdrops & several were silhouetted against, well, nothing! Did these greens play with your mind while you were playing?

What's the word from the members? Do they fully appreciate what they have?

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2001, 05:55:00 PM »
I think the way the principals or principal orperatives of the various architectural firms is very interesting to know about and analyze. Gil's firm seems to be a very collaborative one that seems to very much have fun and bounce stuff off of each other in a healthy and creative way. I believe Gil is very thankful to have those that he has with him in the company--Bill Kittleman, Rodney Hine, Jim Wagner and now at Rustic Canyon, Geoff Shackelford, as EdG mentioned.

I can't really remember the details now but GeoffShac is from LA and my recollection is that he was involved in the concept of what has become Rustic Canyon long before an architectural firm was hired to build it. Geoff is not one of the owners but I believe the concept of doing a really good, different and quite "renaissance" style public course there had a lot to do with Goeff.

I've said a little about this before on here but Geoff's contribution (this is the first course he's been dircectly involved with) is an unusual one and also an extremely benefical one to the architectural firm of Hanse Design and I believe that Gil and the others very much see that. Geoff spent an inordinate amount of time analyzing the raw site of Rustic Canyon for all things design, routing, concept, whatever, long before the work started. Some in the business might discount his contributions because he has not been in the business previously but I, for one, would definitely discount those that are inclined to discount him in the development of the project!

For anyone who knows Geoff or has closely read his books knows that the guy has innate talent in design and design concept. It would be pretty hard for anyone who has the interest he has and has combed through so much in the way of classic architecture not to have talent. With obviously an enormous catelogue of courses, holes and design concepts inventoried in his mind and vision from all the research work he has done on his books and aerials it is easy to see that his contributions would be interesting and benefical. And I believe the preliminary routing work he did on Rustic Canyon was a great contribution simply because it was very  dedicated and he put a huge amount of time in just identifying all the golf that was there before any work began. The routing collaboration between Gil and Geoff may have actually been much more in concert than  might normally happen anyway.

I was talking to Geoff not long ago about the benefits of "natural" routing. By that I mean trying to find everything that can be used for golf on the site before anything gets changed or needs to get changed. We both think that although this may actually have to happen before one learns all the ramifications of machinery and such that it actually might be a bit of an asset not a drawback. And I was kidding Gil the other day that now that he has been learning how to use machinery that this may be a bit of a bad thing.

I for one think that Geoff ought to stay off the machinery and stick to his talent for natural design and all it means. It might make him even more creative and adventurous with the raw land and knowing the possibilities of machinery and such might actually dilute that raw talent. I'm probably wrong about that (kidding really) but that's the way I am because I don't really understand machinery either and I'm frankly not all that interested in learning--it might be better that way--a bit contradictory, but...


Bill_Perlee

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2001, 07:26:00 PM »
Another admirable characteristic of the Hanse design team is "on site presence".  We are fortunate to have Rodney Hine on site daily, (long days), and we see Gil each week.  The benefits of this are probably self evident but from personally being involved in three Master Plan renovations, this is not a common practice.  I can't wait to see Applebrook and see what these guys can do with a blank slate, because the renovations they have done in Westchester County have gained them a huge following.

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2001, 07:31:00 PM »
Tom,
Great post on Applebrooke, so good to hear it came together the way it did and the strategy functions in an appealing way, I know Gil is pretty enthused about it and the membership response has been very positive. When I was there, it was at the stage where some of the details you mentioned were tricky to see how they would come out, so that's great to here it all came together.

As for Rustic Canyon, very interesting comments about routing, I'll have to think a bit about what you said regarding earth moving equipment and how that effects your thinking, particularly with green sites. Because in a twist of irony, as I was stomping through some bushes yesterday looking for some cool native stuff to transplant around the bunkers, I was wondering if my lack of experience helped me see site features during the routing process that I would not see now, knowing that if you have the dirt, you can simply make something work by moving some earth. I hope my views won't change because I think there was definitely a certain naivety that forced me to look at every single bump and contour. At the same time I think Gil and Jim were able to make the beginnings of my routing actually come together because of their experience on machinery and knowing how to piece the grey areas together, or to definitively say that something could or couldn't work.

Definitely an interesting thing to consider and I'll let you know if knowing how to run a bulldozer (not well) taints my views next time the routing process comes along! I know one thing, working on a routing was still the highlight for me, even though the day-to-day construction aspect has been incredibly fun. As we near the end, I still can't wait to get up at 5:30, which for a writer is scary!
Geoff


TEPaul

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2001, 12:57:00 AM »
Geoff:

If you think it was naivete or something else that forced you to analyze every hump and bump then that is something you should never lose and it's something you should continue to contribute, in my opinion.

Obviously sites are very different from one another but still it's an important raw talent to keep and an important one to excerise, I believe. And you know what we were talking about with the older designers and what they were facing with the lack of equipment they had. It's interesting and probably very instructive and educational to put yourself in the position they were in. That way it would seem to be easier to see things the way they did.

Would Thomas or Bell have created some of the sublime drainage features and basics into the general and specific architecture that is Riviera if they knew the possibilities of the array of machinery available today? Would Crump have solved the sticking point of 12-15 the same way if he knew its potential? Maybe they would have done it better with our machinery, who knows? Sometimes thinking there may be limitations might actually lead to some interesting results. And of course if those limitations really don't exist just let the equipment operators tell you how or why. Because once they take it out they ain't going to put it back the way it was! Maybe the old guys would have done it differently but if one really loves what they produced without that machinery, it's certainly a subject to think about.


Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2001, 05:15:00 AM »
Tom,

I think in more than a few cases, the "old guys" moved more dirt than we might think. I suspect Capt. Thomas moved a lot dirt at Riviera just to get the surface drainage to function effectively. And, of course, all eighteen green complexes are totally manufactured.

The key is the shaping (and, of course, supervision of shaping). As you know, it's essential to ensure that ALL man-made features look natural and that tie-ins are absolutely seamless. If the creation of artificial features and surface drainage schemes is successful in this way, then the average golfer will think the course in question is "minimalist"; because it simply won't appeared "manufactured". Even the keenest students of course design can be tricked by quality construction work.

Rod Whitman has for years been complimented for his "minimalist" work on the original course at Wolf Creek, when in fact he pushed more dirt around there then most people could believe. I think the key in this case is that Whitman (and others) didn't shape features as much as he concentrated on shaping the entire property, focusing on the tie-ins everywhere.

As I've said before, a comparison between Donald Ross' two courses in Windsor, Ont. -- Essex and Roseland -- offers a great case study illustrating the importance of attention to detail during the construction process. At Essex, Ross & Assoc. were given the contract to oversee the construction (and a very capable and experienced superintendent was on-hand as well), while at Roseland, Ross' plans were handed over to a contractor.

The quality of the design of both courses is very comparable. But the quality of construction makes Essex superior. Like at Applebrook, the flow of the ground from green-to-tee at Essex is elegant. The tie-ins are perfect. The entire propery is shaped, rather than just individual features. At Roseland, tees, bunkers and green complexes just "pop-up" out of a flat landscape. Essex is, comparatively, much more aesthetically pleasing.  

When I started shaping for Whitman, I was almost terrified to put the blade in the ground. It was my "minimalist training" that taught me to be fearful of disturbing the natural landscape. I quickly learned, through Whitman's patience with me, that you can't be afraid to move dirt around and BUILD. The trick is becoming proficient enough on a bulldozer to produce features that harmonize with the inherent characteristics of the site. After all, without construction, we wouldn't have tees, bunkers and green complexes, right.

jeffmingay.com

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2001, 05:18:00 AM »
Jeff, thanks for the great insite.

TEPaul

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2001, 01:14:00 PM »
Jeff:

Good points! If you're going to do the dirt work do it well and that as you say, entails really studying the natural ground, don't you think? Very good point about really tying everything in and I'm sure that entails getting sort of wider than one would think with the equipment. Would that be accurate? But all those interesting little things that can be used--you don't want to take that stuff out as some of our friends on here say some operators do just because they think that stuff like straight (manufactured) lines are better than the natural ones. Would you agee?


Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2001, 04:37:00 PM »
Yes, of course, Tom. It always begins with studying the native ground in order to identify really cool inherent features with intent to utilize them. No doubt.

But, remember, native ground still has to be cleared of ground cover, roots, etc. For that work you better have an extremely steady 'dozer man who's clear on what you're trying to save and why. Or else you'll be rebuilding!

Whitman spent an extraordinary amount of time painstakingly grubbing the proposed  fairways during the early stages of construction at Friar's Head, very careful not to disturb the native contour there. This isn't the type of work Rod would do for anyone. But he was doing it for Bill. Anyway, next time Whitman shows up at Friar's Head he discovers that all of that contour he tried so hard to leave undisturbed had been altered (softened in many cases in order to ensure golf could eventually be played). All Rod had to show for his efforts was a paycheck!

To retreat to my original point, most properties either possess some features that need to be altered slightly for golf or sections with little or no features on which things need to be built. In either case, quality construction work is the key. Quality shaping can fool the keenest minds; trust me, I've been fooled myself  

Even the Golden Age guys had to soften things and create others.

Last, I think tying things together properly does involve "going wide". That's a very good way to put it.

jeffmingay.com

Mike_Cirba

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2001, 08:31:00 AM »
I so want to post on this thread, but I'm waiting to play it before weighing in.  After walking the course during GCA day at Inniscrone, that's quite an act of self-restraint!

TEPaul

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2001, 11:07:00 PM »
Jeff:

You might have misunderstood me. I wasn't  talking about touching nothing just so you can say you touched nothing or that you practiced "minimalism". Nothing like that.

What I was talking about is idenitifying the features that can be used for golf, sometimes very small ones. This is what I saw GeoffShac doing at Rustic Canyon and what I saw Bill Coore doing at Hidden Creek. We were walking around out in the dense woods at Hidden Creek once with no topo and after a while I asked him what could he possibly be looking at or for. He said he was looking for anything to work off of sometimes something as small as a foot or two in diameter--maybe a little nob in the ground or whatever. And that's what GeoffShac was doing too at Rustic although that site was entirely treeless with only some ground cover. Sometimes very small ground features to identify, leave alone and work from. Geoff was also looking at the ground cover itself about as closely!

I wasn't talking about not using machinery--just working off some very interesting and small (if necessary) natural formations. Many designers don't even notice that stuff, I'm sure, and they certainly wipe it away. That's what I'm thinking about with minimalism.

GeoffShac mentioned on this site not a month ago that that he was beginning to realize that even the old guys moved more dirt than we might be aware of and sometimes for reasons that were very practical, like a bunker in a particular place that may have been done because dirt was needed for something else near it, etc! So I wasn't talking about touching nothing only identifying anything that might be good no matter how small it might be.  

Sorry about Rod Whitman getting some of the little things he worked on wiped away. I guess that's one of the reasons for living on a site for four years as Crump did. Or else telling the guy who might come in after you what you were looking at and doing. I've heard things like that happen to lots of guys I know, Kye Goalby etc!

But the best example I know of for practiced minimalism is still the before and after photos of #9 Cypress in GeoffShac's Cypress book. Those two photos sort of say it all!


Tommy_Naccarato

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2001, 11:36:00 PM »
I think you all have hit it right on the spot.

For me, (And so I don't ruffle any feathers) This is the defining difference between what Rees, Jack or the King do when compared to what Gil, Tom, Dan & Dave, and all the many others that I'm not mentioning.

Its the finer attention to detail of the moving of every inch of the given site that is the difference between a Applebrook or Rustic Canyon compared to a (Here we go again!) The Bridge.

Its not that I'm taking credit from the talented shapers of say Wadsworth, but ultimately, do they connect with the land as well as the others mentioned above have? Or is it simply just a 7:00am-3:30pm job?

From what I have seen of Wadsworth, and I'm not talking all of the company, is a group of guys who aren't really even golfers per say and could care less. They simply did what they were instructed to do, and the ultimate test is how those orders were followed.

To me, that is a huge difference in what all of the above do when compared to all of the ones that do it from the comfort of their office.

So I ask this question......

Have Golf Architects become nothing more then salesman while associates put together the design to their specific criteria?

After all, Andy Warhol utilized other artists to project his ideas and create under his name, because he didn't have the time to do it all. But the thing is if this statement is true, then it ultimately isn't really his then is it?

(This is not to take away from the many who aid in the development of any design, but I do have to question myself the motives of a Arnie or Jack. Do they really care about golf design?)


Ken Bakst

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2001, 03:01:00 AM »
Jeff Mingay

Please send my regards to Rod Whitman and let him know that I was disappointed (but understanding!) that he wasn't able to make it back up to Long Island to help out with the finish work at Friar's Head and, in particular, on the par3 course.   Then please ask him (and let us know) whether he agrees with your statement, with which I disagree, that "all of that (native) contour he tried so hard to leave undisturbed had been altered" at Friar's Head.  Although I fully understand the point that you were trying to make about not being able to keep every little/big natural contour, I would be terribly disappointed   if Rod truly feels that "[a]ll [he] had to show for his efforts was a paycheck!"

To all others:

Just keep in mind that sometimes you have to move a lot of dirt to make it look like you didn't move any at all!!  So the key to determining whether a golf course falls into the "minimalist design" category, in my opinion, is not based on how much dirt was moved but rather whether it looks and feels natural!


brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2001, 04:00:00 AM »
I believe a careful reading and looking at the pictures in Geoff Shakelford's "AM The Cypress Point Club" book highlights very well what Ken has just added. (see pgs. 38-44, exception being #9) Further another great example of GREAT minimalist design is seen on pg 61 of TD's "Confidential Guide" Sand Hills.

Ken, I suspect you are going to have a wonderful collection of before, during and after pictures that I'am sure will adore your wonderful clubhouse.


T_MacWood

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2001, 05:44:00 AM »
An interesting story about the care Rod Whitman took in revealing the natural contours of the ground. That may explain why some courses appear more natural than others.

Although the ground was eventually softened, they obviously started by taking great pains to find and preserve the interesting undulations that are unique to nature. If you expose yourself to these features enough times and study and utitilize them to a great extent, when you are forced to create or soften, you're much better prepared to emulate nature.

That is one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of the term minimalism, for one it excluces a great number of works produced by golf-architects who appreciated nature and were masters of working with it, but were also masters of emulating and creating the haphazardness of nature when forced to. And also the original term minimalism -- given to art movement -- was an abstract art form which utilized straight lines and simplistic geometric shapes, hardly natural. For that same reason I've never really cared for the term classic, classical or golden age -- all describe an art or architecture derived from ancient Greece and Rome which is governed by strict rules of proportion, strict geometry and above all symmetry.


brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2001, 06:03:00 AM »
Tom, minimalist to me is as found in nature, the blending of what was there and created intersecting in a way the what has been created blends perfectly with what was present in its natural form. I'm sure TD's upcoming book on Pacific Dunes will be a GREAT study of this and other archie topics.

T_MacWood

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2001, 07:00:00 AM »
Brad
The most common use of minimalism relates to the abstract art form -- which has nothing to do with nature. The term Minimalism has been borrowed by golf architects and redefined to describe designs that utilize nature with a minimum of artificaial interference. Unfortunately there are courses that do not fall under this defintion, where the designers were forced to utilize a great deal of artificial contruction either to create something from nothing or to tame what was already there -- Lido, Banff, Yale, Timber Point, Jockey, ANGC and Bayside are not minimalist designs.

I'm not sure what Tom Doak's definition of minimalism is, but I doubt Lost Dunes would fall under even a liberal definition and I'm pretty sure his current project (in Texas) wouldn't either.


Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2001, 07:13:00 AM »
Ken Baskt,  

My sincere apologies for being overly dramatic to prove a point!

I didn't mean to insinuate you guys blitzed through Friar's Head with 'dozers. Rod had simply explained to me that more construction has taken place there than most golfers will realize once the course opens for play.

Indeed, you sometimes have to move a lot of dirt to make it look like you didn't move any at all.

Of course, Rod's not letdown by the fact that some of the natural stuff he worked hard to preserve had to be altered in the end. Not at all. He loved working at Friar's Head, and was disappointed he couldn't return this fall, particularly to do the finish work on the par 3 course he designed and constructed for you.

Whitman's well aware that he'll have much, much more to show than a paycheck for his efforts at Friar's Head. In fact, he's very proud of the par 3 course.

[Again, sorry for the dramatization!]

Rod's presently trying to fill at least nine green wells with sand at Blackhawk in Edmonton before the bad weather arrives... and so he can go hunting asap!

Tom MacWood,

Whitman dislikes the term "minimalism" too. He taught me that you can't be afraid to move some dirt around to create interesting golf when natrual features aren't there. He's a fantastic shaper as well; the best I've seen at recreating the haphazardness found in nature.

Tom Paul,

Like Geoff did at Rustic Canyon, we also took a good look at the natural ground cover and vegetation at Blackhawk and made efforts to preserve a lot of it, with intent to provide the course with some appealing texture and a "natural feel".

jeffmingay.com

Tommy_Naccarato

Hanse Design's Applebrook G.C.
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2001, 07:59:00 AM »
I think a perfect example of the work Geoff, Gil and Jim are doing at Rustic Canyon will be evident of pictures of the 17 hole. The golf hole literally MELTS out of the waste area.

The hole is a sort of reverse modified Redan (A "Nader" to those in the know)(Redan in reverse is spelled N-A-D-E-R) and the group has gone to great effort to preserve the native sage and scrub that will make it even more terrifying when staring at it from the tee.)

To the other side of it is another masterful protected/done native washout area that is home to the 10th, which plays in the opposing direction.

Going to be some pretty cool stuff there when it is all finished.

From what I have seen of Friars Head, I have to say that if this isn't going to be one of the great ones, then I'll eat my hat. The attention to detail and more specifically the routing of the course looks to be spectacular, as it hugs the land.

In typical C&C fashion, Bill (The Chosen One)found the best golf holes and didn't worry about views and vistas, and probably similar to what he did at Cuscowilla; by not taking the course next to the lake, like most would have.

At Friars Head, it seems as if those holes literally MELT out of the landscape. more then likely because, they in fact, do!

Jeff, Since I haven't met Rod Whitman, it would be unfair for me to try to typecast, but he does strike me as a person who probably doesn't really care how much was on his paycheck, just as long as he got to work in the dirt at doing what he does best. And so it goes for the rest of the talent that  has the name Coore And Crenshaw on their paychecks whether they be freelance or full time. Everyone connected to them is a winner.

It's that whole unselfish attitude that crew seems to possess that is undeniably impressive.


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