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jglenn

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2001, 06:03:00 PM »
Just quickly, Mike...

My goal was not to make it a generational issue.  Rather, in taking extreme litterary license when writing the post, I simply found it more entertaining to "personalize" the golf courses.  For humour, I gave the Golden Age courses the character of a group of older men (with or without dentures), and the Modern Courses were described as a gang of young punks.  

Sorry for the confusion.  It's just fictional poetic license.  It has nothing to do with real people or generation gaps.


TEPaul

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2001, 01:01:00 AM »
Jeremy:

You and Jeff Brauer made a real good argument for modern methods there, particularly your detailed post. RJ Daley made a real good counterpoint argument too.

Certainly, we aren't comparing all the golf architecture of the pre WW2 era against all the architecture of the post WW2 era, I suppose. Probably better to compare the best of the former with the best of the latter and then try to imagine with that comparison what would be the best way to go from here.

Although you did make an excellent argument for modern age methods, I, for one, think your argument is built on a false assumption, a false premise really, although ironically, you stated it in a very revealing way!

You said, 'Perhaps the main reason why today's courses ARE equal-if not better-than the old guys can be summed up in two words--"earthmoving potential".

I know you and Jeff probably wouldn't agree but I would say, and I think RJ Daley would agree, that "earthmoving potential" is one reason why the modern architects COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER, but unfortunately they aren't. Potential is not realization!

RJ Daley recognizes that they do have a "choice" today and agrees with you on that point, but he goes on to conclude that after a while most of these modern architects with their "earthmoving potential" lose sight of what they're choosing between! For that reason I think RJ Daley's cogent point is probably a more accurate description of modern age methods and creations.

For the most part many of these modern age architects see the potential in earth moving and for that reason they fail to see the potential in the land as it is before they got there. This is to be expected, I suppose, but it doesn't have to be that way. This is another good reason why many of us do like certain modern architects who seem to see the potential in both! We're not really singing the praise of a few modern designers because we just think they're neat guys, we sing their praises because we like what they do and we see how they do it differently than so many of the other earthmoving oriented architects.

You do make some other good points about some of the little detailed "tie-ins" between nature and earthmoving. That's admirable and I couldn't agree more. That  should be the extent of it and that very well may have been the "earthmoving potential" that even the old guys were hoping for in the future that could make the hand of the future architect indistinguishable from nature itself. That was pretty much the "ideal" they were hoping for someday that would make the art soar beyond their own creations that were limted in doing even that kind of "earthmoving detail work" you're referring to.

But I don't think the old guys or even some of us expected that the modern guys would move mountains so regularly just because they had the potential or even the choice. Moving mountains is basically wiping out much of what is good for golf that was there before the designers arrived.

For all I know some of the old guys may have done the same thing as the modern guys are now. I just know they didn't because they couldn't, they didn't have the potential or the choice, so they probably learned how to use most of what was there better--or at least many of us think so. And we see some today that have the potential making some very sensitive choices that defer to natural aspects. We aren't even really singing their praises because of their methods--we're doing it because of their creations and products. Their products just look better and play better than so much of the other stuff. The modern guys wipe out natural apects, certainly those they might think  problematic and they may think they can reform them to look natural, but I don't think they can and I don't think they ever will--it just isn't possible and even the old guys with their lack of "earthmoving potential" recognized that.


T_MacWood

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2001, 01:52:00 AM »
Jeremy
I'm not sure I would agree that adequate earthmoving provides the ability to do a much better finishing job or that the older course's man-made features often stood-out abruptly from their surrounding, or that today's green complexes or bunkers can much more softly blend in to their surroundings.

I'm not sure how a several ton machine can provide the same level of detail as craftmen with picks and shovels. And the reason many of those features stood-out as abrubt is because nature is abrupt and unpredicatable, not always soft and flowing. The modern bunker may blend into its artificially created surrounds, but is that ultimately as appealing the savageness of nature?


BillV

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2001, 04:34:00 AM »
Great posts since I last visited this thread!

Essential facts and questions

What is good?
Is it better?
What is popular?
What can be done today?
What is being done in modern design?
What sells?
Where are we going and why?

There are those who feel today's work is far superior to the work in the past.  Tom Fazio is of course the poster boy as he has written exactly so and wants us to believe that what he and others do is good for golf.

Recently re-reading Charlie Macdonald's work, one has to wonder how far what took root in America in hte late 1990's has evolved to bring us to where we are today. We now export it to the rest of the world as "good".  It's American, IT"S THE BEST.

The simple facts are that modern design has evolved for the most part to a set of standards that have little to do with the game of golf as it existed at the turn of the 20th century for beter for some, worse for others including most here.  Maintenance and agronomy are a big part of this, we can groom for firm and fast, but it is out of fashion, so it becomes lush and green.  Fairness has replaced charm and uniqueness and fughetabout the rub of the green.  One of Charlie's chapters that I just finished was the lament of the advent of Colonel Bogey to the detriment of the game. Stroke vs. match.

What does everyone want from the game today?  Does modern architecture give the consumer what he wants from the game  Absolutely.  We don't see Forest Creek being torn up for another Ross type course.

Is the history of golf architecture worth preserving?  That is probably the essential question here.  Is what we are doing now architecturally the future of golf?  Is it what the majority want?  Longer straighter fairer?  Yup.  Reaping what we sow.  It is all tied together.

So maybe modern stuff is the best after all. It is the hot new thing! But I still  don't see much commonality.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2001, 04:38:00 AM »
More good stuff from Jeremy!

Ted Kazinksly, ah ,Tom MacWood,

Anti - Technology guy, huh?  Well, we do agree on the Brownstones being more neighborhood friendly

Technology is just one factor.  Looking at design as it relates to economic conditions, because budget always has (except on rare sites - which only in golf design can allow a better product for less money, where all other design branches  pretty well need to spend more to have a better product, regardless of site) been important to final product, I would expect the most of the best American designs to come from the Roaring 20's, 50's and 90's, because of the prevailing economic conditions at the time, and the prevailing mindset that brings to really build something that's more than utilitarian.

The 20's was an era where the designers were trying to learn the craft, and break the mold of both the Scottish paradigm, and the utilitarian efforts of the early builders.  They were obviously highly motivated to do so, and did well with their best courses.  

Perhaps the 50's was the worst era.  The country did go through a period in the fifties and sixties where "modernization" again was the rage. That in part was spurred by the euphoria of winning WWII and being the first superpower, which may have put grandiose ideas in many minds.
Architecturally, it was fueled by negative reaction to the Chicago 1933 World's Fair, when the designers did the fairgrounds in a classical style, and most critics felt strongly their should be a strong, unique, American style of design as well. Perhaps RTJ Sr. and others felt this strongly, too, and applied it to golf. Time hasn't been good to the majority of the courses in that era, but its easy to see the influences that shaped it.  Of course, maybe with a little more aging, we will re-appreciate the qualities those courses have.

When American culture hit, what IMHO was a real cultural low point-the 70's (disco sucks!) which was brought on by, or at least concurrent with, a painful restructing of the economy after decades of industrial prominence, is it a surprize that a nostalgia boom hit?  

The roots of the Golden Age golf design revival surfaced there.  We began reincorporating much of the old style of design, that was seemingly lost in the total moderinzation movement of the 50's.  
The point is, with time, as Barney says, the courses of the nineties (which are very eclectic in design style) and even the average courses built especially for public play will be considered far better than their earlier relatives. As an era, I think it will be remembered for diversity, not "sameness" and formula.  How could anyone really look at the evidence - the wide variety of good courses out there built recently - and not say otherwise?

On the techical side of earthmoving potential, I have always found that I can either move the absolute minimum of earth to tie a green slope back into it's surrounds (not shorting the toe of slope Jeremy mentions, but just grading only what needs to be graded, like the tee, the green complex and any fairway hazards, or I must grade everything! The eye accepts the grading of the green complex as a necessary and utilitarian reshaping of the land.

Once you decide to add one artificial framing mound,(or landform in modern parlance) not directly related to a golf feature, it seems obviously artificial when it ends.  Thus, to complete the illusion, it is necessary to keep going down the entire hole so everything ties together as one, flowing landscape.  This is where Dye, Fazio and others have got to, and I can see why. I think the thing people don't like about that (when they don't like it, as many do) is that it is amost impossible for one mind (the architect) or even several minds (his associates and shapers) to concieve of enough different contour forms, as compared to the randomness of "Ma Nature".

So, I generally favor leaving most of the land the way it is naturally, (or in the case of the Quarry at Giant's Ridge, the way it was UNNATURALLY from mining) Of course, this requires something other than a dead flat site.

And, yes, one of the reasons I will take out a hill, is that even if I think it might be fun to hit a blind shot, experience tells me that a lawyer somewhere will find another architect to tesify that it was really crazy and non- standard! Before the legal question is considered, you have to admit, that if you craft a nice green and/or bunker complex, it is always prettier to the human eye if it can be seen by the human eye.  And the eye provides us our biggest stimulus, at least today because of TV, but probably always.

However, I can understand the argument that ONCE IN A WHILE, can you break the rules?  Of course.  But that doesn't diminish the qualities of modern courses that the rules are broken less often, does it?  There are good rules and bad rules. Most of the ones we adhere to in golf design are common sensical.  I compare it to Andy Griffith versus Barney Fife.  Old Barney followed the rules to a tee, with comical results.  Andy was the common sense guy about rules and no good rules.  Every architect probably looked and or looks for a chance to break out of his own mold, but has to pick the places carefully.

Enough for now. Cheers.

Jeff

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2001, 05:08:00 AM »
I agree there with Tom MacW to a large degree. Jeremey seems to be setting up some false premise, like green surrounds flow better or flow softer into the greens or whatever with this modern earthmoving potential. Why is that something that architects now or in the future should strive for? If blending the hand of man with that of nature is what he means by that then I couldn't agree more, but I don't know that's what he does mean. It seems like many of the architects we aren't too enamored with have done decades of gradually more softening and flattening in and around greens.

Jeremy did make a good point, I think, that possibly modern techniques can blend the rough (nature and natural aspects) with the necessary shapes for golf (like greens or their surrounds). It's sort of the same point that Jeff Mingay made about a month ago. But they have to know where to start and stop better than some that I've seen. I think that's exactly the point too that the old guys were both making and hoping for in the future! And their wish seems to be coming true with some of the modern architects, but not all. Others are just going too far and using the machinery in the wrong places;  places they should leave as is and attempt to blend it with what they need to blend it with. I don't know whether these kinds of architects are failing to see the potential of some of this natural ground or they don't care to even analyze it for golf. Basically they seem to me to be running that machinery way too far out on many of the holes I've seen. They are way too far out on the flanks of what are to become holes and they seem to start way to far out on the green-ends too. They don't seem to be using natural green surrounds and such or many other natural features--they're basically creating too many golf holes from scratch by running that machinery in places it might not need to be!

As far as giving the golfers who want to just go out and have a good time knocking a ball around and looking at pretty waterfalls and such--I can't really disagree that an architect shouldn't give that crowd what they want. But that's not an argument that's ever going to convince people who study really good architecture and appreciate really good architecture that that's the thing to do if you're comparing what is really good architecture.

I think most of the time this whole discussion gets fixated too much on arhitects themselves instead of on what exactly they're doing. That's why I think this particular thread is a good one, better than most, as it's starting to discuss exactly what is being done and what that  means compared to say the "Golden Age" and what some of the "Golden Ager's" were both doing and hoping for.

Clearly there are some who are never going to give a guy like Tom Fazio an even break no matter what kind of great hole or course he may create. I hope I'm not one of those. I haven't seen as many Fazio courses as I should have if I'm going to comment about his work generally but if I see something good he did I will certainly say so. An example would be #17 at Galloway. That's a very good golf hole--maybe not world class but very good. It's subtle too and it's architectural features, all of them, hang together really well and make sense--the hole is a total package for golf and strategic golf too. There's a lot to think about on that hole and again it's subtle but meaningful in the choices and the shots that any golfer might select--and it's a par 3 to boot. #2 and #3 at Galloway are too. Both holes (or parts of them) really make the golfer think if he wants to avoid making a mistake or doing something dumb and that's what it's all about to me. There are a number of other holes at Galloway I think the same case could be made about although maybe to a lesser degree. So that's giving credit to Fazio for some of the holes he created. But as Brad Klein said about Galloway the routing basically stinks! A golfer on foot or even in a cart can get lost on that course. Maybe that wasn't Fazio but still it stinks that way! But that's another subject from this one.


BillV

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2001, 05:25:00 AM »
Tom Paul

Please don't put the take on my mentioning Fazio as Fazio bashing, but he has wriiten what I wrote and said what I quote him to have said.  Galloway has probably the some of the very best work I've seen from Fazio including World Woods, and an awful routing.

There's a lot of banal stuff that doesn't say Tom Fazio in the spot on the card where it says "Created by.    He doesn't have a lock on that part of the market.


Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2001, 06:09:00 AM »
Gentlemen

The most important issue to consider when comparing the golden age courses to present day is the availability of quality land. What percentage of courses built before 1960 would have a snowball chance in hell of being approved, permitted and built today? NOT MANY! For those familiar with Eastern PA courses, could holes 3-7 at Lancaster CC be built with the Conestoga River running through them? I think not. How about Manufacturers? One of my favorites. The Sandy Run Creek is crossed nine times during the round. Considering modern setback and buffer requirements the land would now be used for houses.

As much as walking is an integral part of the game, in many cases the availble property dictates the use of carts in order have 18 holes.  Several architects have told me they would not take on this type of assignment. Unfortunately most the land which is affordable and has the applicable zoning is also inferior grade property. Consider Rees Jones' new Tattersall Course in West Chester. The course is built on the top of two mountains and the 18th green is over 1 mile from the clubhouse. The golf course is not only unwalkable but impossible to play unless carts are permitted in the fairways. This is certainly not "classic" or "traditional".  Unfortunately the only alternative would have been not to build the course at all. Considering how enjoyable the course is to play the owners made the right decision and now Tattersall is available for all to enjoy.

I agree with the concept that the best golf holes are "discovered" not built, however modern technology now permits us to copy and pay tribute to historical design concepts by recreating them. Is it a sin to fool with Mother Nature? Maybe, but I would prefer to consider imitation the best form of flattery.

If anyone out there has a quality piece of property with all of the elements required to build a great course including a water source, elevation change, good soils, zoning, and a sympathetic approval process please let me know. I am sure we can "discover" another classic golden age style course.


TEPaul

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2001, 06:50:00 AM »
BillV:

I'm not saying anyone in particular is Fazio bashing without considering some of his work but certainly that does happen.

I've read Fazio's book too and I do see in there what he says, but that aside or even despite it I'm just trying to look at his holes and courses objectively.

Obviously the guy has got talent but the rap seems to be he doesn't show it as much as he could or should. If you want to know my take on Tom Fazio, at this point, I would say he does have talent but that he's basically a follower not a leader. The irony is he's following his own banal successes and not some of the better work he's done.

I don't know why he does that except maybe that he just gives them what they ask for (certainly clients and maybe golfers too). I think Rees feels the same way about it, and in a way that's sort of what Jeff Brauer and Jeremy Glenn are saying to! Except Jeremy is saying this kind of modern architecture is better than the "Golden Age" work anyway! That is something that he certainly hasn't proven his case to me nor to plenty of others and I don't think he ever will because for us it's just not true!

It is a business and if you don't give them what they ask for then they seem to say you probably won't be in business very long. Some of us obviously dispute that idea and think some of these guys who really might have talent ought to be educating both clients and golfers to a more interesting type of golf and architecture by being more insistent than they are.

So it's probably a little of everything but I guess we have to recognize, at this point, that the kind of golf courses we don't admire much are simply a bigger market right now. I think that may be changing, though, and maybe faster than most think. So if it does, I guess we will see what they can do. But if that does happen there are clearly a number of guys who have been doing this more classic renaissance work for a longer time and pretty much exclusively and they will be the ones who get the best jobs and more of them and will probably be the ones who will get the fame for it--frankly, I can see that starting to happen already!


TEPaul

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2001, 07:16:00 PM »
Rob:

There's some truth in what you say but it's just not that simple and you certainly can't generalize that there're aren't workable  sites left and that's restricting some good or even great architecture.

Recognizing that this discussion keeps going around in circles since there are plenty of people who say you can't really compare almost identical holes for their architecture if one has the Pacific Ocean on the left and another one doesn't. That's crap as far as I'm concerned because I think you can compare those holes in an architectural sense. And there are also plenty of courses that have wonderful architecture on very mediocre or even poor sites! Easthampton would certainly be one.

It's really a different take on things  altogether and there are some who can do something special architecturally even on a bad site and there are others who do bad work even on a good site. You don't need sites like Manny's and some of the others either. It would be nice but it's not essential. Of course noone could build #11 Merion any more but they could still do some good work without the creek.

Just read Shackelford's new book when he talks about the fundamentals and the concepts of really good architecture and then come back and say it's only about sites, environmental restrictions and permitting. I don't think so! Those things don't help, they do hurt to a degree but they are not totally precluding good and interesting architecture from getting built totally, even when they do exist on a site.


T_MacWood

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2001, 07:34:00 PM »
Jeff
Its not everyday you get compared to a mass murderer/terrorist. How much do you think that desire to create flowing landscape relates to the dominant background of Landscape Architecture? It seems to me many modern designs have a Picturesque quality, where as the older courses reflect on more naturalistic feel -- less contrived.

I don't think I would agree there is more diversity today, just the opposite. There is no doobt diverstiy of styles, due to the very large numbers of designers, but there is a sameness to the excution. I wonder if that is due to limited number of contractors -- for example the fairway grading seems to have a common look.

Rob
The vast majority of Golden Age courses were rural tracts/former farms, aren't there  plenty of those remaining?  


TEPaul

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2001, 07:40:00 PM »
Rob:

Look, Tattersal is a good example on your part. I watched that whole thing unfold! I watched that design get shoved up the mountains, where they did not want to be and go through every other kind of hoop you could think of. And I know who built it. Should they have walked or done it anyway?

Well, that was Rees's call for sure. He did it anyway and I'm glad the company did do it. I would much rather have seen the worst golf course in the state there than 150 houses. And people are playing Tattersal and I hope they're having fun. It's important too to realize what happened there and not to needlessly blame something on Rees or Keith Evans or anyone else. Nobody that I'm aware of is claiming that Tattersal is a good architecture, not Rees or Keith or anyone else.

Tattersal should not even be in the realm of discussion about what is good architecture. Even if Alister MacKenzie himself wanted to make Tattersal great architecture he wouldn't be able to. And I really don't think I'm hurting anyone's feeling by saying that. This thread is about common qualities of Past and Present architecture, I thought. Qualities, to me means assets, architectural assets made or found. Tattersal just doesn't have enough of either to be part of the discussion. And I'm certainly not blaming Rees for that either.


Mike_Cirba

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2001, 07:53:00 PM »
Tom Paul,

As far as Tattersall being good modern architecture, I think that IS what Rob Waldron is saying, or am I mistaken?

He said, "Considering how enjoyable the course is to play the owners made the right decision and now Tattersall is available for all to enjoy."

To me, using Mackenzian terms, good architectural is supposed to provide pleasurable enjoyment, so I sense that Mr. Waldron is saying that although it's not traditional, Tattersall is still good modern architecture.  Or am I misinterpreting you, Rob?  
   


TEPaul

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2001, 09:02:00 AM »
Well, if Rob is saying that then God love him, but I don't have to agree that's what makes for good architecture. Maybe they just love being outside batting a golf ball around and running up and down those two mountains and being able to do it in a fast cart too--they're probably yelling "Yahoooo" as they speed between the holes! Maybe they even want to know what happened to the waterfall or two coming down the mountains--maybe they think it they come back in a year it will be there.

I think Alister MacKenzie is the greatest too, but I've never taken everything he said all that literally, particularly if I know he said it after about 5pm!


TEPaul

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2001, 09:09:00 AM »
Actually MikeC, if you really want to get deep into the architecture of some of these architects it's important to delve fairly deeply into their personal lives.

It's a known fact that Tillinghast conceived of a number of relatively dull holes if he happened to conceive of them in the morning. The ones he conceived of early afternoon have more flair and the ones he did later in the day are downright dramatic! Same with Alister, except the other way around! He was great in the mornings and OK in the early afternoons but later in the day he became somewhat forgetful and befuddled. Same with the things he said!


TEPaul

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2001, 09:31:00 AM »
This also explains why MacKenzie and Tillinghast never really worked together. They tried to for a few days at Melrose! You didn't know that did you? Well, they did and it became apparent to both of them that things weren't working out well. When MacKenzie was really humming in the morning Tillinghast hadn't really woken up enough to pay attention. They did have at least two relatively productive lunches but in the PM Tillinghast was beginning to get real smart and Alister was starting to lose it and had as hard a time paying attention as Tillie did in the morning but for other reasons!

Thank God Perry was around to bail the project out or it would have been a disaster. At least that's what the architectural experts at Melrose believe.

The truth is Perry watched these two geniuses for two straight days, got sick of both of them and on the third morning,  after both of them had gone, Perry told the "Forgotten Man" to forget about everything he'd heard in the previous two days and then proceeded to rapidly tell him what to do before skipping out and heading downtown for the rest of the day to hear the Philly Opera.

These were extraordinary men and architects, I'll tell you that much!!


Mike_Cirba

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2001, 09:38:00 AM »
Tom Paul,

If it's true that Tillinghast did his best stuff as the day progressed, he must have come up with Ridgewood's "five & dime" hole at ll:59pm, and then probably rolled down into a bunker to spend the night.


Mike_Cirba

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2001, 09:41:00 AM »
Which brings us to another important possible difference between Golden Age & Modern architects...the creative use of libations and spirits.

Besides teetotaling Ross, the other fellows seemed to have an affinity for a nip or two.  Are enough of today's architects similarly inclined?  


TEPaul

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2001, 01:33:00 PM »
Nope, The five and dime was conceived of around 4:45pm, but a couple of the holes he did in the Wyoming Valley were done around  dark! Apparently he fell off his shooting stick on Somerset's #2 around quiting time (5pm) and he kept creating lying on his side. The hole was much more radical in the very beginning, but they had to fix the over the top tilt not long after construction.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2001, 02:19:00 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Perhaps I overextend our esoteric debate a bit, and did go a little overboard on the TK thing.  Sorry, as I meant no offense, but it was one of those things that seemed funny when I typed it....However, if you don't like personal comparisons to usavory individuals - or worse - I would have to say that its a good thing that you steered yourself away from a golf architecture career, because that sort of thing come with the territory....almost daily, I might add.....and especially on this site!

I know you do not like the idea of landscape architecture dominating golf design, even if it happens to be the best techical training currently available.  However, some of the architects that practice massive earthmoving - including Fazio, Dye, and Nicklaus, to name a few, are not trained as LA's, so I think the explanation lies somewhere else.  Those three are the greatest salesman in our business though, and many owners (Trump, Wynn, and a host of others) are very flamboyant, and/or need their courses to convey an image of flamboyance to meet their objectives, ie selling houses, hotel nights, and casino trips.

Contrast this to the representative clients of the Golden Agers....A group of men, who have just discovered the joys of golf and want a golf club (not experience) near their new suburban homes.  These clubs were designed, as Jeremy suggests, to be played first, and admired later, whereas most high profile courses today are designed to be admired, and admired quickly.  When someone has only to put up $100 to play, he doesn't have a signifigant chunk of his life savings tied up so that he won't go anywhere soon!  That is the commonality I referred to in my first post, meeting the owner's objectives, while the objectives have changed.

I agree that there is a sameness of execution, due to the limited number of contractors.  I know that most shapers I work with will relay an idea (or just go ahead and shape something) because that's how Fazio did it on the last job, and I think it has happened in reverse, as well!  Also contributing is the faster spread of technology and information, whereas a Ross crew may have never seen the methods of a Tillie crew.

However, I feel as if the strategic concepts espoused by Tillie, Ross, the Doctor, and Flynn are all pretty much the same, as well.  Even C.B. Mac did about the same strategic things, but with some quirk and flair that might be compared to Mike Strantz today.  For that matter, I think the styles of Tillie at San Fransico and MacKenzie at C.P. or Royal Mebourne are also about interchangeable.  Add Thomas to that mix, as well.  Really the same bunker concepts, with some more jagged, some more smooth.

The separation of design and construction really began about 1960 when Brent Wadsworth split with Larry Packard to become the first bona fide "Golf Contractor".

This knowledge spread is natural and good in most ways.  If someone has come up with a faster, cheaper way of doing things, I sure am not above incorporating that to keep my courses cost competitive.  Good examples are plastic pipes (drainage and irrigation) which have really reduced the respecive cost of drainage and sprinklers, after accounting for inflation.  For example, 10 years ago I used the rule of thumb that a drain pipe cost $1 per lineal foot per diameter inch to estimate costs. (i.e. a 12 inch diameter pipe costs $12 per lineal foot) That cost is still the same today!

This naturally led to more drainage pipes, as the cost of the pipe and catch basins every 300 feet to minimize water flow turns out to be less than the cost of regrassing long washouts time after time. Of course, this leads to grading the fairways artificially, and the economies of placing basins at just the points where they will reduce erosion (again, about 300 feet) leads to some sameness, as no one can shape a 300 foot area in an infinite number of ways.  This naturally leads to you, the coniseur of golf design to get mildly pissed!

But the people who pay the bills, and who have spent the money growing in a course without much drainage, not to mention the cost of adding it later, prefer the practicalities of drain pipe.  And if you ask old timers who maintained the courses, they probably love the old designes, but I wager they welcome the new technology as well.  Sort of like Bin Laden railing against the modern technology of the west, but using his cell phone to call ma! (oops, compared someone to a terrorist again)

Put enough of these innovations together, and like it or not, voila, we have modern architecture!

Jeff

PS - I don't know if any of you recieve "The Boardroom" magazine, but along with a remodelling article by yours truly (basically the syllabus for Remodel U, actually, there is an article by Hurdzan proclaiming the new Golden Age is upon us.  It makes some of the same points I made above and is interesting.  

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

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The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2001, 02:46:00 PM »
Jeff -

As usual, you bring some really interesting things to light - I never would have thought about that drainage progression.

Just one quick question - don't you think it's not really Hurdzan, Jeremy, Fazio, you or any other modern architect who should be proclaiming this the new Golden Age? Isn't that the job of someone with a little more perspective & objectivity? I see all sorts of credibilty & conflict issues arising here.

Don't listen to me if I proclaim this the Golden Age of T Shirts!!

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Willie_Dow

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The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2001, 02:48:00 PM »
Played Sankety from the backs, and like Mid Ocean, where you have to look for the old backs, but they are there if you look for the ground, the old routing is from this location.
The old rules required that the tee box was six feet from the green.  

Tom_Doak

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The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2001, 02:48:00 PM »
Rob Waldron:  Those who have been here longer know that I don't buy the "no more good land" excuse.

We got permits to do the 4th - 8th holes at Stonewall down a stream valley very much like Lancaster's 4th-6th holes.

I've had 10 or 11 good pieces of property to work with, out of 14 golf courses so far.  Four or five of them were great pieces of property.  Other designers today get them, too.

I can't remember who said it months ago, but the most important difference between the twenties and today is the role of the DEVELOPER.  Even most of those who develop private clubs are in it for the money, not to build something fun for them to play with their friends.

The need for a stereotypical, par-72, 7000 yard course with a certain number of water holes in play is a distant second, and even that can usually be attributed to a less than enlightened developer.


Mike_Cirba

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2001, 05:38:00 PM »
Tom Paul,

I really need to get to Wyoming Valley next year.  It's in my old neighborhood, and if it's as funky as you say, I'm sure it'll have a blast.  

However, I have to place it after Fenway on my next Tillie "must play" list, based on GeoffreyC's enthusiastic urging.  I understand he designed that one well into the evening hours too!    


TEPaul

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2001, 11:09:00 PM »
MikeC:

Actually I'm thinking of Fox Hill and I don't know how much Tillie it really is although there are some interesting holes there. The other is Wyoming Valley and as I mentioned a few years ago I officiated a State Am qualifier up there and I didn't even see the whole course because two of the holes were so wild I could't get off of them since someone from every group was hanging himself on them somehow.


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