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T_MacWood

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« on: October 29, 2001, 10:33:00 AM »
There are many fans of so called 'Golden Age' designs, what common qualities do these courses share?

Others feel that modern design had met and perhaps surpassed the 'Golden Age', what qualities do the very best modern designs share and what advantages might they possess over the past designs?

What qualities do the best courses from both eras share?


Ken_Cotner

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2001, 11:41:00 AM »
I'll start...

"Fun" better than "Ordeal"
"Adventurous" better than "Boring"
"Choices" better than "Dictated"
"Flowing" better than "Collection of holes"
"Beautiful surroundings" better than "Ugly/bland surroundings"
"Fast" better than "Slow" (I mean that in more than one way!)

I don't think these principles are unique to any era.

Ken "yeah, that is Mom and Apple Pie stuff" Cotner


domer

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2001, 03:06:00 PM »
does anyone really ENJOY greenside,stonewall lined, artificial, water hazards? I don't recall ever playing any "golden age "courses that have these worthless man made stinky ponds....unless a 1960's,70's,or 80's architect added them

TEPaul

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2001, 02:47:00 AM »
This is a great question and I've been thinking about it, but I'm not ready to try to answer it yet.

BillV

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2001, 02:49:00 AM »
Maybe Tom Fazio will finally post on this one!

BarnyF

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2001, 03:32:00 AM »
There is no difference between the great designs of the "Golden Age" and the great designs of today except for their age.

I always wanted to live to see the year 2525 just cause I love the song but I will settle fot 2025...so lets hop in our cosmic club car and transport ourselves some 65 years post 1960.  I think without argument we can find at least one great course built every three years post 1960 which gives us approximately 20 now classic designs.  Some courses have matured and improved but most have been as forgotten as the Tom Bendalow layout of my home town that was recently butcherd like the illegal sow we just bought on Catholic only ebay.

Now lets take time before our prostates explode to compare the top 20 courses built pre 1960 and the top 20 courses built in the last 65 years.  Remember appoximately 15,000 course have been built from 1960 to 2025 so we are talking about 20 pretty special layouts.  Sure the "Golden Age" courses have cute french names to describe certain holes and features...ie: redan, baritz, eden, alps, etc.  However after the Cultural Revolution of 2007 our great courses of 2025 have features named after our great leader Nick of Nick at Night fame...Bewitched, Mayberry, Hogans Hero...and the dreaded Bevery Hillbilly's.  The names have changed but as in all the arts greatness has stayed the same...it justs takes time and patience to eliminate latest fads which can only pretend....it all becomes obvious over time.


BillV

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2001, 03:38:00 AM »
BARNEY

In the year 2525 (Shitty song).  Just remember that all those so-called golden age courses have be obsolescesed out of existence!  NLE!


BarnyF

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2001, 03:48:00 AM »
2025 is only 24 years away...Nicklaus designed Shoal Creek 24 years ago and not all that much has changed...The body has altered since 1977 but the mind remains as crisp...Golf will do the same...its not that far away.

T_MacWood

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2001, 06:45:00 AM »
John aka BarneyF
I see you take the Fazonian view. I would hope there is more then age that seperates the interesting from the not so interesting. It sounds as if your knoweldge of the arts is on par with your golf architectural knowledge. Most art and architural historian would disagree with your assessment that the arts are on a continual rise -- there have been highs and lows throughout history. New is not neccesarily better or worse and old is not neccesarily better or worse, quality is quality old or new.

There is growing opinion that the modern movement of conventional architecture has been a definitive low point -- cold and sterile. When the brownstones were replaced by modern lifeless standardized mass-housing in our inner cities -- it resulted in destroying the idea of the individual and now they have become sources of vandalism and decay. Is it possible that modern golf architecture has been effected by some of these same factors, for example de-emphasizing individualism?

I'd be interested in seeing your list of 20 great designs since 1960. Do you believe that the forty years prior to WWII produced an equal number of great courses?


Hey

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2001, 07:41:00 PM »
What's with the recent BarnyF bashing?  He is perhaps the most entertaining poster on this site, so let's not run him off with hostile posts (although he probably doesn't care)...

Ed_Baker

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2001, 11:45:00 AM »
Tom MacW,

A very interesting question,particularly because at face value it would seem an impossible comparison between apples and oranges. However,you did specify "the very best modern designs".Certainly,with the cummulative knowledge of the contributors here, a reasonable number of common elements should be easily identified between great golf courses regardless of the date of construction.

I put up the same kind of rhetorical thread a few weeks back on "Just what makes a Classic a Classic",it turns out that this is difficult to define.(redanman) opined that the very reason he preferred "classics" was that they had very little in common,ie; they had a unique character and personality of their own.Which to me is a very valid viewpoint.To try and list actual physical design elements that are common to all great courses is virtually impossible.

So it would seem that our preferences seem to come more from the subjective and difficult to define result of the "proper" melding of form and function that is both utiliterian and an art form for that particular site.

Many on this site have agreed that the personal preference between one great course over another comes down largely to the blonde,brunette,redhead,evaluation.All are great,for different reasons based on individual taste.

I would offer the following commonalities to great golf courses,yet each entry on my list is a concept in itself and difficult to define as an individual element.None are exclusive to a particular era,or date of construction.

Great Routing.
Variety of holes.Including the ability to be equally interesting in most weather conditions.(A course that does not rely more than it should on wind,or fast and firm conditions,to be challenging for the expert.)The architectural merits stand by themselves regardless of conditions.(NGLA,Pine Valley,Pebble.)
No obvious contrived artificial features.
Proper maintenence meld considered by design.
Maximum use of the most severe topographical features of the land disturbing them as little as possible during construction.(The hand of man,is much more obvious,than the hand of god.)

I am sure many on here can expand on this much better than I.
Just my opinion.
 


BillV

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2001, 12:35:00 PM »
We've done something like this before, but it's booooooooooring late this afternoon where I am and I haven't contributed a thing to this thread except sarcastic drivel.  So here's a try at something useful.

Almost uniformly classic courses come off as a course rather than a collection of holes, although even the best courses by the greatest most talented and revered designers all seem to have personalities tied to the site. Collections of holes are the norm today.

Being tied to the site and to use the term  "core" orientation have created these personalities.  Earlier this month I played Beechtree in MD and it is more tied to the land in its character (Albeit a bit bi-polar) in a way like a classic coiurse.  In spite of a similar core construction, I don't always find modern courses lately to do this.  

The stringing oout of holes for real estate has led to design in a vacuum, I believe where every hole is an entity to itself and some designers literally try to do 18 "snignature" holes (Can't say that word correctly!) if the budget allows.  This is of course tied to the concept of the consumer rather than the golfer.  An experience so that a pleasant time is guaranteed for all.  THe heart of the game as it originally was played is not required and sometimes might even get in the way of the experience if it isn't too "fair".  

I think the shared values or characters of great courses from any era are more tied to the game played than the views and that is why i am so hard on pretty courses.  I remember playing a mid-am quali in CO before I left and an architecturally appreciatiative individual who also played the tone-a-mint round, but had never seen the course before answered when asked what he thought was quick to say "They tried to hard".  I think that that sums up some of the modern stuff very well. Instead of a round or course, each hole has to be memorable.

What do the best modern courses all have in common?

Not having played PacDunes nor Sand Hills yet, I am wont to say a great site.  I am also inclined to say that most fail because they are too hung up on visual attractiveness.

Time's up, I'll give it some more thought and get back!


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2001, 01:22:00 PM »
Tom,
I think one of the common qualities that GA courses shared were their architects. The best architects discovered what principles were to be found on the best holes/courses and used this knowledge to create their masterpieces. Some copied, others liberalized, but all deferred to the best of what preceded them.  

When modern architects follow this formula they too can create masterpieces. Is there one architect admired on this site that doesn't have a nearly complete education of the classic holes, their values and uses same?  

Charlie,
The 9 holer I run will never be considered "great" but it is a Raynor?Banks course that anyone can play, for $12.00 American.
We have a reverse "Redan" green on our par four opener, a "Road Hole" green at the terminus of our par 5 finisher, a "Hogback" green, newly built{George Bahto} and hopefully in play by July '02, a "Short", a "Punchbowl" and some other treats too. Come up to Lakeville, Ct. next season(April thru October} and enjoy some Golden Age Raynor. Tee times are not necessary and walking is always allowed.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

jglenn

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2001, 04:00:00 PM »
Certainly a question that will not be answered with one easy stroke.  What do the older courses have that their newer offsprings don’t?  And, of course, what have we learned in the last years that would entitle the younger generation to claim superiority over their predecessors?

In short, each is clamoring: “What have they got that we ain’t got?”

Starting with the beginning, it is undeniably that Golden Age courses, being older, have history on their side.  And, in the case of the most famous, a history rich with champions and championships, thereby allowing them to stand above all the wannabes and wouldhavebeens and neverweres, and uncontestably accept the crown of greatness.

Indeed, who has not stood on the first tee at St. Andrews, the 12th at Augusta, the 11th at Merion, the 5th at Pine Valley, or the 18th at Pebble Beach, and not given at the very least a moment’s reflection to all that has happened before and all that will happen yet.

Aye, but protest is soon heard from the younger generation – restless as they always are – claiming that none of this has anything to do with the golf course itself and it’s unfair and wait a few years we’ll get there yet and punctuation has never been our strong suit.

Unassailable, the elders have a mere moment’s indecision before filling the air with evidence and credible support to their claim.

Being designed and built when few people had much idea of the so-called “proper” way to go about things, the older courses each had a true uniqueness – as opposed to the manufactured, cookie-cutter, falsely-marketed “uniqueness” of modern courses.  Quirks, eccentricities and non-conformities of the landscape where more readily incorporated into each golf course.  Modern courses would merely bulldoze the damn thing over, for it would not fit their target-market Signature Program of Photogenically Framed Golf Holes.

Which, ironically, is what the whole thing is about.  Older courses are meant to be played first, then perhaps admired.  Modern courses are meant to be admired first, then perhaps played.  

Mainly, the reason why this landscape uniqueness is by-and-large done away with on modern course is that, as architect Sinclair Gauldie said, “confusion” is one of the Roots of Ugliness.  When one is presented with something that cannot be understood, having never seen it before, it is often negatively dismissed.  Yet how can one be asked to immediately understand and appreciate something that is truly unique?  Essentially, the main problem – and weakness –  of modern course that they are all too often designed to be seen as beautiful, or understood, from a picture in a magazine or from the first tee to a resort guest.

Of course, it is not for anyone to state which should take precedence, the admired or the played.  This right is for each individual to do so without prejudice.   However, as long as people claim to “play” golf, it remains clear, in the eye of the author, which of these two options should be the most important – even if, by stating so, he becomes prejudiced himself...

At any rate, I would be readily able to continue on with this great subject until the very last of you skips whatever else I may say and moves on to the next post.  So I’ll pause while you’re still around.

But I still have much more to say.  ‘till tomorrow, perhaps, when I might take the opposite view?


Mike_Cirba

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2001, 04:21:00 PM »
Jeremy,

Good show!  I wish you had kept writing while you were in a groove.  


Bill_McBride

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The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2001, 04:30:00 PM »
Jim Kennedy: your course sounds like a lot of fun! How many of the nine are as originally designed by "Raynor?Banks"? Would love to hear more about the course. At those low green fees, how do you keep it maintained as needed to play the shots no doubt envisioned by whoever the original architect was? Do you have two sets of tees, one per nine when you play 18?  I've enjoyed nine-holers with that design. Hope to play yours one of these summers.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2001, 05:58:00 PM »
Bill McBride: Jim is the pro at The Hotchkiss School Golf Course in NW CT

Raynor built 8 new greens over the original course (some re-rerouting). He was stuck with one of the old greens - probably the best one on the old course. It is a horror but fun to practice putting on. Fortunately
building expansion will be coming right next to that green next spring and it needed to be replaced. I put a green that has the Raynor look and design. We just seeded the new green  a bit over a week ago.

The course is fun - hard and fast. The greens are presently small circles but we should be doing major green expansion next year.

Hotchkiss has a couple real good holes: numbers 1 & 9!!  

The course had been left to deteriorate for over 75 years but it seems they've made a commitment.

Tony Pioppi (Golfweek) has a story about it in a new (?) magazine coming out - the New England Journal of Golf, I think it is called.

Could be the cheapest course by a major designer in the US!!!!!

For unique pro shops on Macdonald/Raynor courses, I've been trying to figure which is the smallest/eccentric/quirky-est: NGLA (New one going up now) or Jim's.   - pardon me Jim, just lobbying for a new proshop for you.

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

ForkaB

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2001, 06:09:00 PM »
George

The new NGLA clubhouse is up and running, so Jim "wins" .


Jim_Kennedy

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The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2001, 06:24:00 PM »
Thanks George:}
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2001, 01:47:00 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Great thread, and one that should be tailor made softball for a modern defender to hit out of the park....sadly, I haven't had much time lately, or I would have come to Jeremy's assistance on this one. His views probably are the closest mirror to mine, and Barney ain't really too far off either!

If I can answer in one point, its that the courses were generally all built to suit the times, (i.e, the way the game was/is played) the the technology available and the perceived desires of the end user, as  interpreted by the owners.  Since those all change over time, the end result changes, even if there is a commonality of original purpose.

If I may debate about the debate between you and Barney, I have to agree that T.V. probably isn't thought of in the same light as a Shakespearian play, but Barney's point that time separates out and makes for classics is a good one.  No one thought of "I love Lucy" as anything but light entertainment, but it is now a "Classic" and studied in schools like earlier literature.  When rock and roll was new, and reviled by the same critics you mention, who would have ever thought there would be a rock and roll hall of fame? And in Ohio's second (to Columbus, I'm sure) most attractive city!

Lastly, I know you studied landscape architecture, and were probably subjected to the same "save the world with design" drivel driven into me at school, but replacing Brownstones is not the biggest root cause of societies' problems, IMHO.  It could be argued that the mass produced, and thus lower cost, affordable houses, made life easier for the masses, allowing them more funds to expand their horizons in other ways - such as travel.  Like golf courses, however, those old Brownstones did acquire some charm with age!  

If your point was directed at the Cabrini Green type facilities, that have been discredited, I agree. But, I believe that it was a case of not designing for the end user very well, and a high rise probably never fosters as good a neighborhood feeling as low rises.

In golf, I think we ARE designing for today's end user, and also a wider audience, including enviromeddlers who will never set foot on the course, surrounding housing views, who may not set foot on the course, and wheel chair golfers, who may not likely ever set wheel on the course. I know you have heard this before, but it's true, it's true!  So, is Cagrini Green really relevant to golf architecture, and how/why do you think golf design would affect the players in the most indivualistic of sports?  And, are you completely dismissing the "post modern" architecture, which reintroduces many past concepts, and more ornamentation, albeit, probably not with the craftsmenship that RJ craves?

Domer,

If no one enjoys the waterfalls and features, et. al, why do they keep on building them?  I think modern golfers like more "pizazz" than people of the Golden Age in general, perhaps because we are more visual, due to T.V. Technically, stone faces are built because, over time, we have found that erosive wave action ruins lakes.  Lakes are built, because over time, we have found that a bit of irrigation leads to better turf, which golfers seem to crave.  I disagree about old courses not having stinky ponds - a look through the books show many efforts at ponds, which are usually too shallow and small to provide water circulation, and look quite stagnant and unattractive in the pictures.

I too like the idea of comparing the top 1% of golf courses by era.  I'll bet all eras stack up pretty equally on design merits.

jeff

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jglenn

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2001, 03:57:00 PM »
PART II -  Yesterday I looked up the Qualities of the Past.  Today, I take a different viewpoint.
___________

So the Old Farts came up with the following points as proof of their greatness:

- Rich history
- Uniqueness derived from using the raw landscape.
- Better sites and freer use of those sites.
- More matury
- Design for play rather than looks
- Not giving-in to formulaic criteria of what is “proper”.

“Not so fast”, cry out the Young Guns of today, “we’d like a chance to be heard as well.”

Fair enough, Junior.  But first you need to turn down that damn stereo!

Perhaps the main reason why today’s courses are equal - if not better - than the older guys, can be summed up in two words.

Earthmoving Potential.

Of course, there are many things that have changed in the last 75 years.  Some, such as irrigation, drainage, maintenance and technology, are for the better.  In fact, the older courses are now benefiting from these advances.  Others, such as residential developments, less than ideal sites, environmental restrictions, are for the worse.  These can severely limit design potential.  But by and large, the main difference between yesterday and today is earthmoving.  And the biggest weapon of the Young Guns is to put this earthmoving potential to good use.

Aye, but this time restlessness is now felt from the older ranks – some clamouring with their dentures – claiming that this newfangled weapon is in fact a double-edged sword and you’ll destroy more than you create and Mother Nature is the best shaper and its damn expensive creating cookie-cutter containment mounds and Geez Louise we forgot about punctuation as well

Arrogant as the always are, the young ones look at each other for the split second that is the probable extent of their Nintendo-induced attention span, and fill the air with a few well-placed generationally-appropriate cuss-words:

Sure, but &@#,  how else would you create Whistling Strait, Royal New Kent, Shadow Creek, Tobacco Road, and, for that matter, all the !@$*ing TPC courses?

Of course, at that point, the Elders started snickering at the thought that Gen-X would actually use Shadow Creek and TPC courses to make a point, but that’s another story.

The thing is, earthmoving is no longer a restriction, by which today’s architects are no longer bound.  If a hill is in the way, the architect now has a choice.  And, more importantly, adequate earthmoving gives us the opportunity to do a much better finishing job.  Whereas on older courses the man-made features often stood-out abruptly from their surrounding, today green complexes or bunkers can much more softly blend in to their surroundings.  And, these surroundings may very well have been shaped into a playable surface as well.  It is, in fact, a great myth to believe that moving less earth makes for a more natural golf course.  Golf courses will always require the construction of artificial features, and these features often require substantial amount of earthmoving to make them seem natural.  Specifically, it is the toe of the slope that is the key for natural appearance, and it is those areas where much earthworks gets used up to imperceptibly extend the artificial into the natural.

Of course, the well-known criticism derived from this is that any earthmoving is quickly labeled as excessive by the self-proclaimed traditionalists.  And certainly, they would like us to believe, when it’s done solely for show – for the infamous “wow!” effect – it becomes a detriment to the values of the game.  

What those values are exactly has rarely been clearly defined and even more rarely properly defended.

At any rate, one must wonder whether or not “wow!” earthmoving is appropriate or, as Martha Stewart would say, is “a good thing”.  Certainly it is hard to argue against earthmoving in the name of beauty.  However, as was stated earlier, is it appropriate for beauty to take precedence over play?  The “dumb blonde” golf course, as it were.

As long as their are people who’s main objective is to go out on the links on a sunny Saturday, go "wow" when they see a waterfall, share a beer with their best friend and have a little fun chasing the ball in their cart around a beautiful setting, “dumb blonde” will remain an entirely appropriate design option.  Sure, it's not for everyone, but who ever said it was supposed to be?

Modern courses and today's architecture can do a better job, by having better tools, of giving each golfer what he or she wants.  

Anyway, once again, I could go on....     Great Subject!  (and great post Jeff B.)


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2001, 04:54:00 PM »
As you so often do Jeremy, an entertaining and well illustrated presentation of competing ideas.  I appreciate the humor and balance very much.

One statement by you stands out in my mind:

"The thing is, earthmoving is no longer a restriction, by which today’s architects are no longer bound. If a hill is in the way, the architect now has a choice. And, more importantly, adequate earthmoving gives us the opportunity to do a much better finishing job. Whereas on older courses the man-made features often stood-out abruptly from their surrounding, today green complexes or bunkers can much more softly blend in to their surroundings."

For me what that says is that technology of efficient high capacity machines offering the "choice", in some circumstances and for many architects (I think) approach the efficiency of the machines as "no choice".  If it can be done, it should be done for both the reasons of ego and bigger is better, and conventional wisdom or evolved common practice that with the big machines, "this is the way you do it"  And, perhaps for another reason that I bet Jeff B thinks about often.  That other reason is that if the modern archie has a "choice", as you say, to excavate and smooth out a natural ridge for instance, that if left relatively natural would lead to some quirk of a blind or semi-blind shot, the choice NOT to take it down to current legalistic conventional wisdom may be viewed as a point of liability weakness/susceptablity.  Thus as you go on to say, the softly blending technique may also lend to understanding my comments that by following such "blending ability" it leads to homogenized looks that rather than just blend in nature, noticibly and artificially covers it up.  That is possibly why the minimalists and mimickers of minimalist/naturalistic concepts among the modern archies get to be darlings of the old codgers and those with old crumudgeon tendencies.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

T_MacWood

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2001, 05:29:00 PM »
Jeff
The reason the Brownstones were leveled and replaced by highrise-mass-housing was due to their age, they were old an 'outdated'. Modern housing was clean, new and progressive, but I sure wouldn't want to live in them -- would you?  The standardized highrise box, had the effect of dehumanizing those who lived within them.

The Brownstones might be old and charming today, but the day they were built they hugged the street and provided their inhabitance the opportunity to be an individual within a neighborhood. They were organic, as opposed to the artificial steel and glass box. Technology needs to be used judiciously.


T_MacWood

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2001, 05:40:00 PM »
Jeremy
What percentage does history and age account for these vintage course's appeal. In other words were they considerably less appealing at their opening? And conversely do you believe the courses of the last decade will generally enjoy a similar increase in apreciation fifty years from now?

Mike_Cirba

The common Qualites of the Past and Present
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2001, 05:43:00 PM »
Jeremy,

Although you stated the opposing arguments quite well and with reasonable persuasiveness, I think it's a BIG mistake to characterize this debate as a generational thing.

In fact, I'd argue that it's almost the opposite.  In recent years, it's been my pleasure to meet with any number of GCA'ers and others who are part of the vanguard of a return to traditional values in golf course design.

Very surprisingly, and quite ironically, I've been struck by the fact that many of the most vocal enthusiasts of a return to the past are young men in their 20s and 30s.  Of course, there are old farts like me at age 44, but generally, I'm on the Senior Tour compared to most in this group.  

Yes, we have our elder statesmen, but it seems to be that many of the younger people at various clubs are looking at what my generation did to classic courses over the past 30-40 years and wondering why.  They are also the ones questioning why they don't see the same quality in courses being built today.  

Like most revolutions, this one is being fought largely by those who aren't entrenched in their dogmatic, stale ideas and perhaps don't have as much to lose yet.