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T_MacWood

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2001, 06:44:00 AM »
I said great golf course.

Olympic

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2001, 07:03:00 PM »
   

T_MacWood

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2001, 07:09:00 PM »
The terrain is the most important attribute to Olympic - the course would be as strong and possibly stronger sans trees. The courses was originally treeless.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2001, 07:25:00 PM »
Tom,
I posted Olympic (I didn't post Sahalee) though I happen to like that course as well.  I know Olympic was without trees but personally, it wouldn't make the grade for me without them.  Sure some could be thinned out, but they "make" that golf course what it is.

Since Sahalee was mentioned I'll say this about it, what kind of course are you supposed to build in an area with such amazing trees, a links?  For what it is and where it ,t is a very good golf course.  And that is coming from someone who's favorite courses are treeless rock hard cow/sheep pastures by the sea!  Variety should be appreciated and respected in golf course design.

Tom Paul covered some of what I am getting at in his post on Applebrook.  I'll add something more later on.  
Mark


T_MacWood

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2001, 07:45:00 PM »
Mark
Trees are not the most important attribute at Olympic. Without trees it would remain a very good course; without the undulating ground it would be mediocre. It is possible to design a course in a forest without trees being the most important feature.

What is your definition of eye candy?


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2001, 08:20:00 AM »
Tom,
We don't need to debate Olympic and Sahalee.  That's more a personal taste and subjective issue.  There's not right or wrong answer.  

Eye candy to me are generally "man-made" features (or natural ones intentially left alone and/or accentuated by the architect)that don't directly come into play "with the golf ball".  However, I believe they can play an important role and that's why I said they are often underrated.  

When "eye candy" is mentioned on this site, it has a very negative conotation!  
Mark


John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2001, 08:35:00 AM »
What's wrong with logo apparel?

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2001, 09:12:00 AM »
Re: Logos
Peter Jacobsen told the story of the time Gene Sarazen greeted him at the first tee at the Masters. Sarazen said, Peter I like your game but what's with the Toyota advertisment on your hat? Jacobsen replied: Well Mr. Sarazen, with all due respect, we all do what we have to, to make ends meet, and I'm sure you would have sported a logo like this when you were playing....if they had cars back then!
"chief sherpa"

jglenn

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2001, 02:02:00 PM »
 

Art is candy for the senses.


TEPaul

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2001, 04:44:00 PM »
I think Jeremy Glenn has made new golf architectural meaning for the design concept of "triangulation"!

paul albanese

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2001, 05:16:00 PM »
I have not been on the site for awhile - reading these posts I have found take up a lot of time and I truly become addicted.

But, I could not help myself, so I came back -- and, again, could not help myself, but had to contribute to a great discussion.

Eye candy -- good topic really.  I talk about it often.  It really comes done to the artistic portion of this artistic profession.  Yes, I especially enjoy bunkering and features that are inherently stategic.  In fact, I used to believe that a bunker that did not come into play was an abonination.  But, I do believe there is a place for well conceived, artistically developed bunkers that create a visual composition that is artful -- and that is also a critical part of this profession.  
 TE Paul called it a "tie-in" -- I call it integration.  Creating a golf course that is visually pleasing, is undoubtedly a part of what architects do -- the key is knowing how to do it with the proper restraint -- thereby avoiding "eye candy" -- Eye candy is the equivalent of an artist simply getting too carried away -- not understanding that the "canvas" is already appealing.  Therefore -- the need ot "add stuff" to make peolple say "WoW."

The difference between "eye candy" and well designed bunkering that integrates the "canvas" into a truly artistic compostion may be very subtle -- and may not simply be evaluated by whether the specific feature comes into play by a golfer.

It falls more into the realm of understanding art and composition -- i.e what made one of Jackson Pollacks paintings "better" than the other.  



Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2001, 07:27:00 AM »
Paul,

Welcome back. Your comments have been missed, and I hope your projects are proceeding well. Now, to the subject at hand, would you give us some examples of courses where the architect/designer has avoided crossing the line to "eye candy,"  and of courses where he has crossed that line.

Doug

PS And a question for Rob. Re the Congressional eye candy girl, was she "in play?"

Twitter: @Deneuchre

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2001, 09:55:00 PM »
Is a bunker superfluous if it comes into play for the 28 handicapper, but not the scratch golfer?

I am not a fan of mass bunkering, but the bunker in front of the fairway undoubtedly makes the 28 handicapper think.  For the scratch golfer it is not a concern.

I guess I am looking for someone to tell me whether beautiful bunkers that do not come into play for the better golfer are superfluous?


TEPaul

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2001, 12:50:00 AM »
Ben:

You're looking for someone to tell you that bunkers that do not come into play for better golfers are superfluous? I'm sure there are plenty of people (who hopefully are getting on in years now) who would be happy to tell you that.

They're the ones who have removed many of the bunkers of some great architects (ie, Donald Ross) over the last fifty years. Their reasoning is if doesn't effect their game it doesn't have any point. Have you ever heard of a more selfish attitude and a more short sighted one?

This design stuff, even from a guy like Ross, is probably not an exact science though and there is much to consider otherwise. It's likely that even Donald Ross did not sit on a particular hole or with his topo and agonize for hours if a bunker should go here or there for some 28 handicapper. There is probably much more than we realize or would like to admit about the practicalities of construction methods, certainly in the old days.

A month or so ago GeoffShac speculated on here that the reason for a particular bunker here or there might have strategic value and it could also be an integration feature too, I suppose, but it could just as likely be a result of just grabbing some fill that was needed nearby.

The original top shot bunkers at my course, for instance. Looking at some of their sizes and shapes it appears to be about the same amount of removed fill as it took to construct the tees that were only 100 yards behind them!

Or even look at some classic green structures like #3 Merion, even NGLA's Redan, or the much more common green like GMGC's #5 on the usual sideslope. The enormous bunkers that are generally to one side of them are probably as much to provide what it took to prop up that side of the green for a necessary grade for putting, to provide the necessary fill it took to do it as much as strategic value.


T_MacWood

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2001, 01:52:00 AM »
The problem with the term eye candy is that everyone has different definition of what it means. One person thinks it is the views, another superflous bunkering (what is superflous is also open to debate), and for another it is all aesthetics.

If a bunker plays an important stategic roll, even though it might be an apparent (directional, mis-directional, stimulating exhiliration) how can it be considered eye candy?


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2001, 02:24:00 AM »
Good comments by all!

Tom,
Regarding the eye candy definition, that's why I use the "contact with the ball" aspect.  It works for me!
Mark


TEPaul

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2001, 02:28:00 AM »
If you were Coore and Crenshaw standing looking at Sand Hills pre-construction and you saw beautiful natural bunker shapes and such spread out all across the landscape would you call that "eye candy"?

And then you built the golf course and looked again and saw some of those natural bunker shapes that were not in play on any  particular hole or for any particular level of golfer, would you then call them "eye candy"?

I very much doubt it!


T_MacWood

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2001, 02:46:00 AM »
I agree with Tom Paul, 'eye candy' is an idiotic term.

BarnyF

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2001, 03:11:00 AM »
Tom Macwood,

To say trees block the wind is short sighted. Trees of unequal shape and density shape the wind in their own individual manner.  Do you think wind sees a tree and stops in fear..or do you think it uses its energy to bend branches shake leaves and then with what energy remains pass through at either a different direction or less speed.  Why does a flag blow one way while the wind at your ball blows another.  Why when even finding the fairway your approaches in a wooded area are different types of shots than in an open area.  It seems to be a common use of stategy among better players to observe the wind movements at the top of the trees and the flag in choosing a shot shape.

Why do we "the purist" think the great architects of the "Golden Age" didn't know trees grow.  Don't you think they had the vision to understand what the mature height of many of the trees in their original design were.  Don't you think they had the hope their design would still be enjoyed when the existing trees reached maturity.  Anyone with vision...a common trait among great architects...that works with nature knows it is changing enviornment and takes joy in the knowledge that a growing tree changes stategy with each foot it grows.


redanman

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2001, 03:32:00 AM »
If it is truly EyeCandy, can it be underrated?

What we have here is a failure to communicate.


RobertWalker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2001, 03:50:00 AM »
I started a thread about EYE CANDY several months ago. (I know it is back there somewhere)

The term EYE CANDY is just another way to insult someone's bunkering.

EYE CANDY

clever


Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2001, 04:47:00 AM »
Sorry robertWalker, eye candy is not just a way to insult someones' bunkering. On this site we don't need a euphenism to do that. No one types with kid gloves.
Speaking of kids, cartoons are "eye candy" for children. All fluff, no substance.
"chief sherpa"

T_MacWood

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2001, 04:48:00 AM »
John aka BarneyF
Why don't you start a seperate thread on trees, so this topic isn't derailed. And while you are at it, start a couple other threads on your difinitions of "the purist" and the "Golden Age" -- I have a feeling those too will be unique. And maybe answer my question on the courses that should be downgraded due to views. On second thought, don't bother.

GarySmith

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2001, 05:22:00 AM »
BarnyF,

I just went through this entire thread, and your two posts about trees and wind stood out to me.

You're right.


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2001, 05:25:00 AM »
Tom Paul,
You wouldn't call it "eye candy" if you associated eye candy with a negative.  That's part of my point.  Some "eye candy", features that probably never see a golf ball, is really good stuff!
Mark