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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« on: November 07, 2001, 04:03:00 AM »
I often hear or see comments about "eye candy" and most of them are negative.  I just played a course that has a fair amount of it (at least I thought it was eye candy   ) and the majority looked great.  Well done "eye candy" has a place on a golf course and it is often underrated!  
Mark

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2001, 04:11:00 AM »
Conversely, how can something that is expensive both to build and then maintain be considered 'underrated' if it makes no meaningful impact on the strategy of playing the course?

Mike_Cirba

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2001, 04:19:00 AM »
Are we really talking about bunker construction and maintenance practices, irrespective of placement?

A great looking natural bunker tends to look fabulous and enhance a golf course visually even if it is not in play for certain levels of golfers.  Conversely, a very artificial looking bunker tends to detract from the visual enjoyment even if located in the most strategic spot imaginable.

I didn't say this was right or fair.  It's simply due to the fact that we humans seem to intuitively appreciate naturalistic art and inherently reject the clearly artificial.  It's also a factor playing into the psychology of what one feels when looking at a hole and determining how to play it.

Simply put, if something looks difficult and terrifying, it becomes so.  


T_MacWood

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2001, 04:31:00 AM »
Define eye candy.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2001, 04:34:00 AM »
Ran and Mike,
I'll address your questions but first let me ask this - If a "feature" doesn't "directly" come into play (or at least you don't think it does), should it be there in the first place whether its natural or artificial?
Mark  

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2001, 04:35:00 AM »
Tom,
You're always a step ahead of me    That's part of what I am getting to!
Mark

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2001, 04:36:00 AM »
Mark, please be specific.  What one calls eye candy another may consider essential!

What'd ya' see, where'd ya' see it, and why do you like it?


Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2001, 04:40:00 AM »
As to your second question, I don't think I understand it but why would one ever spend money to modify a natural feature that wasn't in play?

Mike_Cirba

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2001, 04:44:00 AM »
Can I lean on the old sage (Donald Ross?) who stated, "there is no such thing as a misplaced bunker.  Wherever it is, it is the job of the player to avoid it."

Are "top-shot" bunkers eye-candy?  Framing bunkers?  

Is the only role of a bunker to punish a poor shot by a better player?  How many of the bunkers at TOC would qualify as eye candy?


Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2001, 04:46:00 AM »
That young lady working the beverage cart at Congressional last year was some of the best "eye candy" I have seen on a golf course. Sorry guys, I could not help myself.

BarnyF

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2001, 04:55:00 AM »
In the review of Eastward Ho! the removal of trees along the cliffline was suggested to provide a better view of bay.

Trees = natural    Bay = eye candy

I believe this is an example of spending money to remove a natural feature that is not in play.


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2001, 05:05:00 AM »
I think some of you are getting to my point about what really is eye candy and how important is it?  I would venture to say that most on this site describe eye candy as any feature that doesn't directly come into play "with the golf ball" and if it doesn't, it can't be that important!  "Unnecessary" bunkers are one of the most obvious culprits.

Let me give a few examples.  Those of you that have played Whistling Straits know that Pete "built" everything that is there.  There are bunkers and mounds scattered around that will probably never see a golf ball.  Are they eye candy?  Yes.  But are they an important part of the visual experience that helps authenticate the golf course?  Yes.  I'm personally not a big fan of WS but regardless, I would not call them eye candy in a negative sense.  

I was going to post something else on Applebrook but have to run to a meeting.  
Mark


Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2001, 05:12:00 AM »
I don't think of views as eye candy. Eye candy is superfluous (beyond what is required or necessary).
Tom Doak once said, right here on GCA, that views are what makes golf courses unique. No two courses have the same views. Or something to that effect.
"chief sherpa"

BarnyF

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2001, 05:17:00 AM »
Pete,

If views are vital than why do the architectural purists on this site refuse to downgrade a Classic Courses Architecture because of views of houses, condos, roads etc. etc.


kilfara

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2001, 05:25:00 AM »
Rob, I'm guessing that said young lady's annual salary is probably a fair sight cheaper than certain other forms of eye candy that are about to be discussed.  

Anyway, I would submit that the term "eye candy" IMPLIES artificiality. Therefore bunkers on the Old Course which came into being naturally (and therefore cost nothing to build and only drops in the proverbial bucket to maintain) don't apply to this discussion, even if they are situated nowhere near the line of even the vilest hook, slice, top or skull. Ditto the natural lines of dunes which frame any number of great linksland courses. It would actually cost money (lots of it) to remove these bunkers and dunes - in that sense, you'd actually be creating eye candy of a sort simply by whitewashing nature's canvas.

Beyond that, I think one can differentiate between the massive sorts of earth moving employed at Whistling Straits and, for example, the rows of bunkers to the left of the 18th fairway at Castle Pines. Whistling Straits is what it is because of the shaping employed. Kingsbarns probably fits this category as well - you wouldn't have a golf course like the one you now have without the foundational work which has been done. On the other hand, Castle Pines would be essentially the same golf course - and, quite possibly, a less garish one and therefore aesthetically a better one, by my reckoning - without all of the bunkers. The latter example showcases what most of us here hate about eye candy...they detract from what Mother Nature has supplied herself.

The tree-clearing plan at Eastward Ho! sounds to me like it's no different from the tree-clearing that gets done at the outset of construction at most architectural sites, the difference being the after-the-fact implementation. But if you're simply shifting from one segment of natural beauty (trees) to another (seascape), I don't see how one could find that really objectionable. If you wanted to construct a waterfall leading down from the cliff to the ocean and use it to frame a hole somehow, that would be an entirely different story.

Cheers,
Darren


Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2001, 05:31:00 AM »
Rethinking here.....
I would say architecture must take precedence over views, but on the other hand, great views on a classic course would enhance opinions.
It's easy to look past a blight when strategy and challenge is deafening.
"chief sherpa"

TEPaul

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2001, 05:42:00 AM »
I know what Mark Fine is talking about and I know what Mike Cirba is talking about and I think Ran's question is an important one to answer, which was 'Why spend the money on construction and manintenance to build something like a bunker if it doesn't come into play?'

In a way MikeC's citing of Donald Ross's statement ("There is no such thing as a misplaced bunker") is a bit inaccurate, in my opinion. Ross was undoubtably talking about the kind of bunkering he used throughout many of his holes that was used to make the game fun and interesting for the entire spectrum of golfers (the best to the worst). In this particular way Ross was a bit of a genius in his ability to accomodate every level but it was also a style that was roundly misunderstood over the years. In a sentence Ross's style and remark was; "It will be strategic for someone."

It was a style that also subjected many of Ross's bunkers to removal (topshot bunkers, bunkers for the poorer player etc.) The reason for that was the phenomonal misunderstanding of people with stewardship control that was; "if it doesn't effect MY GAME then it doesn't need to be there!").

I don't think that's what Mark Fine is talking about. I think he might be talking about bunkering that clearly DOES NOT come into play for anyone--for no level of golfer. In other words it has no real strategic value for any level. I think I even know what course he's talking about.

And I think there is a good answer for that too. You have to first look at the inherent oddity of bunkering, period, on some sites. Hunter and Behr talked a lot about this!  

Bunkering is an apparently necessary golf feature that is the sole vestige from the original linksland where it was extremely natural to those sites even before golf was played on them. It is not natural in the farm fields of Pennsylvnia or the Rocky Mountains of Canada. But still it seems to be a necessary feature requirement of any and every golf course.

Using it in places where it may not necessarily come into play therefore is simply a tie-in, a blend, if you will, with the bunkering on golf holes where it does  have strategic function and value. If it is ruggedly natural looking like the bunkering that is strategically useful then it sort of ties the entire site together into a undifferentiated whole, if you know what I mean.

This could very well be getting closer to the ideal of the "Golden Age" guys who looked forward to creating entire courses, entire sites, the playable areas with the nonplayable areas, that looked like they were all part of the same undifferentiated whole and also extremely natural! They hoped for the ideal of creating something in which the golfer felt he was playing in nature alone almost untouched by the hand of man. Or at least they wanted to get as close to that idea as possible. It really never happened--went quite the other way, in fact!

If you look across the open expanse of Applebrook the entire visible site looks somewhat this way. You see bunkering all over the landscape and it's sort of hard to tell if it's on a golf hole or just part of the landscape that was always there.

Some people might call that "Eye Candy" but I would call it a great total tie-in and blend. I would call the whole damn thing natural and great looking!

How expensive is it? I don't know, but it's built now and it's so damn rugged I really don't think it would be all that expensive to maintain. They can probably just sort of let it be from here on!


BarnyF

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2001, 05:44:00 AM »
I think the removal of trees to provide a better view of a seascape is creating eye candy at the loss of architectural strategy. Trees shape the wind in a inconsistant manner too subtle to be crafted by the hand of man.  The good player has a much easier time in a wind that can be gauged consistantly...just use 12 at AGNC as an example.  

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2001, 05:46:00 AM »
The purpose of bunkers can extend well beyond just hazards. This "eye candy" can serve as a target as well a visual frame for a hole. Mr. Nicklaus apparently feels they can also serve as an alternative form of cart path such as Long Bay in Myrtle or Desert Mountain in Scottsdale. Stacked bunkers also serve as ground cover for steep slopes such as #2 & #18 at PVGC.  

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2001, 06:05:00 AM »
Barney,

The ideal tee shots on 9 and 18 at Eastward Ho! once went out over the cliffline. Today they still do BUT trees have grown up to the point where now the sensation is of hitting over trees as opposed to the shoreline. Removing those trees that have grown up should be viewed in that light, which is to say their removal would highlight the holes' dominate natural features (i.e. its cliff/shoreline and rolling topography) as opposed to haveing the trees mask it. Plus, in no way are those trees eye candy - they are directly in play.

Mark,

As for Whisting Straits, I think the way the holes play as a set are amongst Dye's all-time top five but the superfluous bunkering detracts from the design overall. Or put another way, the course could be even better than it is if some of the artificial features were removed. The design would look less busy and more natural.

Everyone,

Take the 6th hole at Lost Dunes. There is a beautiful bunker (or is it two?) cut into the manmade ridge that divides 6 and 7. The bunker is completely out of play, has no bearing on strategy, and while it looks good especially from the way up top tee, it struck me as a very modern, which is a surprise/disappoint on a Doak course. Lost Dunes won't end up in Doak's top ten works by the time he is finished as such features date the course.

Cheers,


Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2001, 06:08:00 AM »
Anything that makes a landscape asthetically pleasing whether functional or not qualifies as "eye candy" for me.  A "natural" directional bunker breaking a hillside is one.  A water feature even if it is not generally in play in terrain where water is commonly found is also one.  A well located specimen tree or collection areas wide of the line of play also qualify.  

John_McMillan

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2001, 06:19:00 AM »
Perhaps an example of tree-removal "eye candy" is the 14'th at Crystal Downs.  The hole is a 140 yard par 3 that plays towards Lake Michigan - about 1/2 mile in the background.  The course owns, and recently removed trees from, property 50 to 300 yards behind the green, opening up the view of Lake Michigan.  There is no "in-play" feature to these trees, unless you REALLY over-club on the tee shot, but their removal does change how the hole looks (and plays?).

Slag_Bandoon

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2001, 06:20:00 AM »
I can't recollect ever seeing any eye candy in Ireland. I saw wild and wonderful playing grounds of highest nutrition and flavor.

Manicured flower beds is shite on a golf course. as is:
waterfalls
fountains
thoughtless moundy mounds
GPS carts (ass candy more appropriately)
two bunkers repetitively placed ten yards to the sides of greens
Humongously huge and pretentious clubhouses.
Logo apparel.
Cross hatch weavy mowed fairways. Ack!
Deep Red Wilson Fat Shaft Driver (just kidding mollydooker Dan, it's beeeyutiful and effective)



T_MacWood

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2001, 06:22:00 AM »
Barney
I thought trees blocked the wind -- you learn something everyday. The trees along the shore at Eastward Ho! were established later and were not part of the original design. I think your observations of EH! illustrate the modern view of golf, you see trees and a lovely view, I see some of the wildest terrain to grace a golf course.

Pete did not use the word vital, he said the backdrop makes each course unique -- but that backdrop presumes a solid design. Can you give an example of a 'classic course' that should be downgraded due to unsightly views?

Trees have there place, but they are well down the line of preferred hazards. I can't think of a great golf course where trees are the most important attribute and I can think of plenty of courses where the trees have become the most prominent downfall.


Sahalee

Eye candy is underrated!
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2001, 06:26:00 AM »