Leven and Lundin Links

[Chris_Hunt]

In C.B. Macdonald's 'Scotland's Gift: Golf,' he mentions two of his ideal holes as being similar to the 7th and 9th holes at Leven on the Firth of Forth in Fife.  The 7th is described as 240 yards with a diagonal burn and green guarded by sharp hillocks, and the 9th is a long par 4. According to Kroeger's Tom Morris book, these two holes seem to have ended up on the side of the wall now occupied by Lundin Links when they split in 1907, in the vicinity of the present day 15th-18th holes.  Does anyone know if the features that made these holes so admirable still exist, and if so, where they are on Lundin Links?  It would be interesting to look at when I visit.

[Ran Morrissett]

Very interesting question, though I have always been under the impression that the two holes that impressed Macdonald ended up on the Leven course. I say that having never played Leven and having played Lundin and having never seen anything that reminded me of the 17th at National on the Morris holes at Lundin.

As for Lundin, you will have a great time but there is nothing remotely like a 240 yarder there today. The 4th hole does have a burn in front of it with the green on the far hillock and is a WONDERFUL hole (see the picture in the course profile).

The 18th is a long par and is equally impressive - perhaps that's the other hole? But no way could they have ever been the 7th and 9th on the same course.

Your question highlights an interesting mystery.

[ForkaB]

Chris

Don't know the answer to your mystery, although I would recommend that you contact www.lunidngolfclub.co.uk  which has a very active website.  Someone there might be able to help you, or direct you to someone who can.

Ran

Your love of the 18th at Lundin is a mystery to me.  Drive as long and as far right as you can (OB left is completely out of play, in all conditions).  Hit a mid-short iron (long iron/wood into a very stiff wind) to the good but not remotely great green complex.  Easy 2 putt and you're only 40 yards from the bar.  Nice view of the clubhouse on your approach shot, but we don't count that, do we ?

[Ran Morrissett]

Rich,

As for the Home green at Lundin, it is slender and steeply pitched, which I like as it controls play well back down the hole as you always want to come at it head on (this despite the fact that the fairway is 80 plus yards wide).

Which brings me to your other point - why would you possibly drive right on the 18th - that means your approach is angling back towards the OB on the left, doesn't it? An approach from the right could well kick off the right side of the hill, run across the green and end OB.

As for the OB being "completely out of play, in all conditions", just how good a player are you? The OB is a mere seven paces from the edge of the green!

Cheers,

[ForkaB]

Ran

When I say drive right, I mean about 60 yards right of the OB left to the valley in the fairway shared with the 1st, from which point you will have a flat lie and be looking straight down the throat of the green.  I'll admit I smoked my drive to get there, last time I played the course , but it was from the tips and into a slight wind.  There is a turbo boost out there which makes it the proper line if you can carry the ball 240+ (210 or so from the visitor's tee).

You are generally right about the OB left by the green (although how big are YOUR paces!), but as the putting surface sits in a valley/semi-punchbowl it is pretty hard to get there, particularly given the slope on the right which will feed any ball hit there down onto the green.  In the 20+ times I have played Lundy I've never seen anybody on the road on the 18th, and I'm NOT that good and neither is my normal host there, who is a very wild 14 handicapper.

[Ran Morrissett]

Rich,

So what you're saying is that there is a strategic turbo boost area and that there is a specific place that you want to aim for in a very wide fairway? Well, that sounds cool to me.

Furthermore, I'm then adding that the green's slenderness and slope and its proximity to OB make it a great green site where dramatic reversals of fortune often occur.

And thus, overall, I am not surprised that one of my brother's friends at the R&A considers it the finest finishing hole in the country.

(For those who haven't seen it, there is a picture in the course profile).

As always, to each their own but Rich, out of curiousity, what are your five favorite finishing holes in Scotland? Lundin's definitely in there group for me.

Cheers,

[John Morrissett]

Rich--

I'm surprised with your comments on the 18th at Lundin.  I think it's a super hole.

It's a bit like the 2nd at Talking Stick (North) -- you start off near the boundary and you finish smack against it.  What happens in between is up to you.  The farther right you play, the more difficult the hole becomes.

I have seen (and been a part of) several good finishes on that hole.  Interestingly enough, it seems that the better players are the ones who pull or hook their seconds out of bounds.  Perhaps the higher handicaped players are so terrified of the OB that they bail way right.

Ran raises an interesting question about the best finishing holes in Scotland.  I had never really thought about it that specifically, but Scotland is lacking in that area.

My favorites:

1. St. Andrews (Old)
2. Lundin GC
3. Loch Lomond
4. Muirfield
5. Peterhead
Alternate: Royal Aberdeen

[Ran Morrissett]

Curiously, England has tons of better finishing holes (St. Enodoc, Lytham, Woodhall, Ganton's is pretty good though not great, Rye, Saunton East, Burham & Berrow, Hillside, etc.) than Scotland.

[Paul Turner]

Ran

You won't want to see what has been done to Saunton's 18th.  A cluster of about 4 bunkers on the left for the tee shot, on a course where there are no clusters of fairway bunkers.  Plus overshaped bunkers around the green with some smooth mounding! I guess the simplicity of the old green wasn't appreciated.

[ForkaB]

OK, I'll reply before more Morrissett's gang up on me

I'll continue to think that the 18th at Lundy is good but not great.  John, I still think that going far right is preferable to anywhere left, if you hit it far enough to get the turbo boost.

I'll agree with both of you that 18th's aren't Scotland's fortes.  I struggled a bit to come up with 5 that were better than Lundin Links.  Here they go, in alphabetical order:

Brora
Kingsbarns
Lossiemouth
Muirfield
Peterhead

I'd put Lundin in a 2nd tier along with:

Carnoustie
Dornoch
Elie
Ladybank
Gleneagles-Kings
St. Andrews-New
St. Andrews-Old
Thornton

I'm sure I've forgotten a few.

[pva]

chris -- I have no idea -- but, you probably need to have a few single malts first

have fun -- I wish I was goin

pva

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rich, You continue to amaze me with this stand.

To answer the original question, last year, sometime, we had the same topic come up about the 7th at Leven/Lundin. From my knowledge, Ludin got the hole and it still exists, and while it may not represent exactly what CB had in mind at NGLA, the hole does still exist and but it has evolved. (Much like the rest of Lundin Golf Club)

I can't remember the exact name of the hole, but it requires a drive over a blinding dune on the left to have a open shot at the burn-fronted elevated green, or a much safer shot right, off the tee, which provokes a daring blind approach to the same. This blinded approach is the result of the dune line right that runs pretty much the entire length of the hole. I forgot to also add that on the left, the old rail line which is now gorse covered and very much OB is a factor if you hook the ball severly off the tee.

I will still maintain that LGC posesses the best links/parkland/links transition in the game today. Much better the Spyglass could ever hope to be.

[ForkaB]

Tommy

I'm not sure what "stand" you refer to and/or why it continues to amaze you, but I am flattered!

Getting back to the original question, a teeny bit of searching on the web uncovered the following:

--It is likely that the current 18th at Lundie was the 9th on the old Leven/Lundin course CB would have visited.  It is apparently largely unchanged from when Old Tom (Morris, not Doak) built in the hte 1860's.
--the 16th at Lundie used to be the 7th on the old layout, and it sounds like the hole you are describing.  It was apparently changed by James Braid when Leven and Lundin split in 1909, so the current version is probably different from what MacDonald saw and possibly based the 17th at NGLA upon.  I must admit that the latter hole did not at all evoke the current 16th at Lundie when I played it a few weeks ago.

I know you like Lundie a lot.  Quite frankly one of the reasons I discount it somewhat relates to the parkland holes (8, 12, and 13) which I consider to all be weak holes and very much out of character with the rest of the course.  The transition is good from a routing sense, but the holes themsleves are poor.  IMHO, of course.

If you really want to see a good transition, from links to heathland to parkland and then back to links, go see Golspie (which also happens to have one of the best heathland holes in Britain--the 9th "Paradise.").  Don't use Spyglass as a comparison--it is two separate golf courses with no transition whatsoever.

Slainte

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rich, The 18th at Lundin Golf Club is a product of Old Tom Morris, after the two clubs made their split.

I will have to dig deep into the memory banks to remember which holes are Braids and which are Morris's, but rest assured, it will be forthcoming!

[ForkaB]

Tommy

That's exactly what I said (with a few tyops) in my last post!  I know it is late, but I'm used to being plagiarized on this site after a month or two has passed, but not in a New York minute ........

My source tells me that the current 1 and 2 and 17 and 18 at Lundin are unchanged.  They would have been 8, 9, 10 and 11 on Old Tom's course.

Night, Night

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Another hole that is unchanged is the 4th which rides the oceanside berm/dune. The bunker has evolved horribly and if you don't believe me, just take a look sometime in Horace Hutchinson's circa 1896, British Golf Links What once existed there was a pretty mean looking bunker with all kinds of rough and knarly edges that would make Jeff Bradley cringe with delight! (Jeff, I hope you are reading this!)

I love talking about great links in Great Britain! We seem to go through this every certain time of year, and thankfully it is upon us again!

[Chris_Hunt]

Thanks all for the info.  The club historian is getting back to me as well, so we shall see what he has to say about the matter.

My top 5 favorite 18th's in Scotland, fyi:

Longniddry
Muirfield
Elie
Crail Balcomie
Dornoch

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Chris, if it was via email from the web site, expect it to be a very long time!

I had some questions I asked him once and about 6-8 months later he got back to me. I think it was that long for him to check his email!

You all should be shallacked for not having St. Andrews on the TOP of the list. Especially you Goodale!

[John Morrissett]

Rich--

Now you don't like the 12th at Lundin either??!?

I have come to respect the 8th as a sleeper, and while the 13th is a bit different, it does offer up perhaps the finest view in Scottish golf.  Therefore, I would never tire of playing the hole.

[Paul Turner]

Boat of Garten has one of the best finishers in Scotland.

[ForkaB]

Tommy

There are bunkers on the 4th at Lundin?  Bunkers are usually the last thing on my mind when trying to cut a 3-iron to an island, plateau green.  Vis a vis TOC, as I've said many times, if they'd only move the Valley of Sin over to the far right side of the green, bringing the road into play both off the tee and for hte second shot, the Links Trust would have a real fine golf hole in 18, but they refuse to listen to me .

John

12 at Lundin's good for a short blind uphill par 3, but I'm not partial to that genre of golf hole.  8's not a bad hole, just average and very much out of character.  13 would be a lot better if they restored the old green complex back in the trees.  The view is OK, but marred greatly by the urban blight of the Methil/Buckhaven complex is overlooks.   Since we're into lists, let me offer 5 better views in Scotland, just sticking to the South coast of Fife:

1st tee at Aberdour
16th tee at Burntisland
4th(?) green at Anstruther (the one protected by the old gun emplacement)
17th tee at Kinghorn
The marker pole at the top of the hill on the 10th at Elie (particularly if you find your drive has made the green!)

If you add clubhouses to the mix, the view from Crail's is surpassed only by Aberdour.

PS--shouldn't we be having these discussions BEFORE the tourist season?

Rich "off for week in Scotland on Saturday" Goodale

[John Morrissett]

Rich--

You can see the top of the flagstick on the 12th at Lundin, so I would not consider it to be a blind hole.  Even if it were, so what?  Do you not like blind shots?  Do you prefer a course where everything is in plain view?  I think the 12th is a neat hole, tucked into a corner of the property.

The tee shot on the 13th is very good, but the green site is the problem. The site tucked around the corner does little for me, and the present site is awfully tight with the trees and to an unimaginative green complex.  I continue to think it would play best as a straight hole.

If you are going to downplay the view from the 13th at Lundin, I see no point in continuing this discussion.

[Ran Morrissett]

Chris,

To answer your original question then, it appears it is the 16th hole at Lundin that inspired Macdonald's Leven hole.

The reason that no one recognizes it as such is that Braid modified the 16th in 1907/1908, long after Macdonald had seen it.

Some people contend that Braid is overrated as an architect and his modifying a hole that inspired Macdonald may support that contention.

You'll like plenty of holes better at Lundin than the current 16th.

Look forward to your report upon your return.

Cheers,

[ForkaB]

Ran

Rewriting and resubmitting my post regarding the provenance of the current 16th at Lundin and its (lack of) influence on MacDonald and NGLA is NOT a way to preserve the storage space on the GCA server .

John

I'm not trying to "downgrade" the view at Lundin at all, which is very good, particularly in terms of giving a panorama of the links.  Rather I was just trying to point out that there are many other views in South Fife as good or better, in my opinion.  You think it may be the best view in Scotland.  I do not.  That's fair, isn't it?  We all don't have to agree on everything, or do we.....?

You are right that I do not like blind holes (see, we do agree on something!), particularly when the green is 2-3 clubs long.  I do prefer courses where the proper shot can be seen OR inferred (e.g. the Dell, the tee shot on 11 at Muirfield)).  I happen to believe that golfing skill involves being able to control both direction AND distance.  Blind holes without inference devalue one or both of those skills.  However, as Sly Stone so wisely said--different strokes, for different folks.

Rich

PS--Ran, I think the "new" 16th at Lundin is a great hole.  A driveable par 4 which is very much "death or glory" and comes at a critical point in the round.  I believe it can hold its own with 17 at NGLA, but I do not expect to get much support on this forum for that heretical point of view.

[ForkaB]

Chris

Having re-read your original post, it seems to me that the 7th Leven (now 16th Lundin) is in fact very much as described in MacDonald's book.  The diagonal stream and the gorse strewn hillocks guarding the left of the green still remain, probably not much changed from the 19th century.  It is posssible (probable?) that all Braid did was lengthen the hole by 70 yards or so.  A very strong clue for this hypothesis is that the fact that the medal tees require a backwards walk of about 70 yards from the 15th green!  If you really want to see the hole that CB fell in love with, just play it off the Ladies tee , which is 260 or so.

Having said that, I don't see a lot of resemblance to the 17th at National, unless that hole was ALSO originally designed with a tee 50-80 yards in front of the current tee.  From a design standpoint, might it not have made some sense to have the penultimate hole evoke echoes of the first two on the course, in being a very short but potentially deadly par-4?

Just speculating.  Enjoy your trip, and let us know what you think when you get back.